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Thank you Microsoft

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  • M Mike Marynowski

    Oh yeah, Windbg is great, saved me a few times from tearing my hair out :D I've never done kernel dev though so I can't comment on your last point. Low level development is an entirely different beast than what I've been doing for the last 10 years. I loved doing that kind of work back in the day, but besides some embedded C++ stuff for MQX RTOS, it just isn't the kind of work my clientele is looking for.

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    Munchies_Matt
    wrote on last edited by
    #27

    Mike Marynowski wrote:

    Windbg is great, saved me a few times from tearing my hair out

    Yeah, its great for user mode too, an awesome debugger, its the only Microsoft I like and respect. :) I like the lov level stuff, I guess being an ex mech-aero engineer I like the fact its more like real engineering, nuts and bolts stuff.

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    • M Mike Marynowski

      Visual Studio is a bit bloated, but that's part of its beauty in a way. Everything is just there and easy to find. The only other tools I need to do 99% of my dev work are Resharper and XAML Styler. I'll gladly spend a few hundred bucks on system upgrades to run a more productive environment where everything is just there and easily accessible when I need it, but I can definitely see why that's a turn off for a lot of people.

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      Herbie Mountjoy
      wrote on last edited by
      #28

      Bloated, definitely. When you have dual quad processors and SSDs and tons of RAM you sort of expect things to go fast. VS seems to stand for Very Slow.

      We're philosophical about power outages here. A.C. come, A.C. go.

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      • S Super Lloyd

        Jeremy Falcon wrote:

        I couldn't stand editing XAML. The editor was slooooooooooooooow. Did I mention slow?

        OMG! Someone actually use the editor?! :omg:

        A new .NET Serializer All in one Menu-Ribbon Bar Taking over the world since 1371!

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        Jeremy Falcon
        wrote on last edited by
        #29

        Yes. :^)

        Jeremy Falcon

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        • M Mike Marynowski

          When I say HTML I obviously mean HTML+CSS. Like I said, it is getting close to XAML. I way rather build a hybrid app in a web container than use any of the native mobile options. I will be thrilled when HTML gets proper shadow DOM. Understanding inheritance of styles is much simpler, much to the credit of how good the live inspection tools have become. Tweaking styles for a web app live is sooooo awesome and easy. Hell you can build half your app by never leaving Chrome now, which is pretty amazing. XAML holds a special place in my heart though, largely in part because of the integration with .NET and C#. Everything I do in XAML is possible in HTML+CSS+JS but considerably more painful at the moment. Have you tried TypeScript? I was playing with the 2.0 release the other day and I must say, it is pretty awesome. When HTML gets shadow DOM and fixes the few outstanding issues I have, I might jump ship entirely to HTML/CSS/TS.

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          Jeremy Falcon
          wrote on last edited by
          #30

          Mike Marynowski wrote:

          When I say HTML I obviously mean HTML+CSS.

          I can't make that assumption... obviously. Kinda hard for me to gauge your level of expertise, with a post like "everything MS does is awesome, nom nom, <3 <3." :-D

          Mike Marynowski wrote:

          I way rather build a hybrid app in a web container than use any of the native mobile options.

          As a strong web dev, I'm the exact opposite, especially since there's no need for such a container nowadays. 10 years ago, I could understand that. Those days are gone though.

          Mike Marynowski wrote:

          Everything I do in XAML is possible in HTML+CSS+JS but considerably more painful at the moment.

          Because you're better what what you have more experience in. I'd wager it's not more painful, but then again my experience over 20 years has been more pure web dev and just a 2 year stint in Silverlight. So, of course I'd lean that way.

          Mike Marynowski wrote:

          Have you tried TypeScript? I was playing with the 2.0 release the other day and I must say, it is pretty awesome.

          Nope, but I'm keen to try it. Used Babel for ES6/2015 a couple times. Although with now Angular all aboard the TS train I'm ready to have another peak at it.

          Jeremy Falcon

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          • H Herbie Mountjoy

            Bloated, definitely. When you have dual quad processors and SSDs and tons of RAM you sort of expect things to go fast. VS seems to stand for Very Slow.

            We're philosophical about power outages here. A.C. come, A.C. go.

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            Mike Marynowski
            wrote on last edited by
            #31

            I don't know what to say, that hasn't been my experience with it :/ What part of it is slow specifically? Could it be related to a plugin?

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            • J Jeremy Falcon

              Mike Marynowski wrote:

              When I say HTML I obviously mean HTML+CSS.

              I can't make that assumption... obviously. Kinda hard for me to gauge your level of expertise, with a post like "everything MS does is awesome, nom nom, <3 <3." :-D

              Mike Marynowski wrote:

              I way rather build a hybrid app in a web container than use any of the native mobile options.

              As a strong web dev, I'm the exact opposite, especially since there's no need for such a container nowadays. 10 years ago, I could understand that. Those days are gone though.

              Mike Marynowski wrote:

              Everything I do in XAML is possible in HTML+CSS+JS but considerably more painful at the moment.

              Because you're better what what you have more experience in. I'd wager it's not more painful, but then again my experience over 20 years has been more pure web dev and just a 2 year stint in Silverlight. So, of course I'd lean that way.

              Mike Marynowski wrote:

              Have you tried TypeScript? I was playing with the 2.0 release the other day and I must say, it is pretty awesome.

              Nope, but I'm keen to try it. Used Babel for ES6/2015 a couple times. Although with now Angular all aboard the TS train I'm ready to have another peak at it.

              Jeremy Falcon

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              Mike Marynowski
              wrote on last edited by
              #32

              Jeremy Falcon wrote:

              with a post like "everything MS does is awesome, nom nom, <3 <3."

              Well with a few exceptions, Silverlight being one of them, everything they put out *is* awesome lol

              Jeremy Falcon wrote:

              there's no need for such a container nowadays

              Yes there is - notifications, app store discovery, integration into the system (i.e. being able to call activities that open other apps), creating a keyboard, *easy* system integrated micro-payments, etc etc etc. I can go on and on here. Web apps on mobile can't do a lot of things native apps or hybrid apps can.

              Jeremy Falcon wrote:

              Because you're better what what you have more experience in

              Yes, of course, but that's not my point. I don't even mean that in terms of how quickly I can do it, more in terms of the "nicest" and "cleanest" implementation that meets all the requirements. Web stuff is great but common, for a very large class of applications native is much better. Our biggest project involves apps that talks to bingo machines through serial interfaces, output animations across 3 full HD TVs, do system level calls to the OS to arrange video outputs and such, has configurable detailed logging to a local log file (with Log4Net), writes live backup data to a USB stick so if the system goes down it's just a matter of unplugging the stick and plugging it into another computer and off you go again, etc. The part of the system that staff use to take payments from people on the floor via iPods is a mobile web app, because that's where it made sense to use one. Can we do the rest with a node.js + website system? Yes, but it would be bloody mess and it would be significantly more complicated. And the performance of the animations would be crap. My point is...HTML/JS apps are not a proper substitute for native development yet, and likely won't be for a while. I like the web, but it is unsuitable for the stuff I do. Hence the painful part.

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              • M Mike Marynowski

                Jeremy Falcon wrote:

                with a post like "everything MS does is awesome, nom nom, <3 <3."

                Well with a few exceptions, Silverlight being one of them, everything they put out *is* awesome lol

                Jeremy Falcon wrote:

                there's no need for such a container nowadays

                Yes there is - notifications, app store discovery, integration into the system (i.e. being able to call activities that open other apps), creating a keyboard, *easy* system integrated micro-payments, etc etc etc. I can go on and on here. Web apps on mobile can't do a lot of things native apps or hybrid apps can.

                Jeremy Falcon wrote:

                Because you're better what what you have more experience in

                Yes, of course, but that's not my point. I don't even mean that in terms of how quickly I can do it, more in terms of the "nicest" and "cleanest" implementation that meets all the requirements. Web stuff is great but common, for a very large class of applications native is much better. Our biggest project involves apps that talks to bingo machines through serial interfaces, output animations across 3 full HD TVs, do system level calls to the OS to arrange video outputs and such, has configurable detailed logging to a local log file (with Log4Net), writes live backup data to a USB stick so if the system goes down it's just a matter of unplugging the stick and plugging it into another computer and off you go again, etc. The part of the system that staff use to take payments from people on the floor via iPods is a mobile web app, because that's where it made sense to use one. Can we do the rest with a node.js + website system? Yes, but it would be bloody mess and it would be significantly more complicated. And the performance of the animations would be crap. My point is...HTML/JS apps are not a proper substitute for native development yet, and likely won't be for a while. I like the web, but it is unsuitable for the stuff I do. Hence the painful part.

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                Jeremy Falcon
                wrote on last edited by
                #33

                Mike Marynowski wrote:

                The part of the system that staff use to take payments from people on the floor via iPods is a mobile web app, because that's where it made sense to use one. Can we do the rest with a node.js + website system? Yes, but it would be bloody mess and it would be significantly more complicated. And the performance of the animations would be crap.

                Oh, you're preaching to the choir on that one. As much as I like node, I don't drink the kool-aid thinking it does everything including make toast. But I am glad it exists.

                Mike Marynowski wrote:

                My point is...HTML/JS apps are not a proper substitute for native development yet, and likely won't be for a while. I like the web, but it is unsuitable for the stuff I do. Hence the painful part.

                Well sure, but my point was in the context of the web.

                Jeremy Falcon

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                • J Jeremy Falcon

                  Mike Marynowski wrote:

                  The part of the system that staff use to take payments from people on the floor via iPods is a mobile web app, because that's where it made sense to use one. Can we do the rest with a node.js + website system? Yes, but it would be bloody mess and it would be significantly more complicated. And the performance of the animations would be crap.

                  Oh, you're preaching to the choir on that one. As much as I like node, I don't drink the kool-aid thinking it does everything including make toast. But I am glad it exists.

                  Mike Marynowski wrote:

                  My point is...HTML/JS apps are not a proper substitute for native development yet, and likely won't be for a while. I like the web, but it is unsuitable for the stuff I do. Hence the painful part.

                  Well sure, but my point was in the context of the web.

                  Jeremy Falcon

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                  Mike Marynowski
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #34

                  Well of course in the context of the web a website will be better, haha. I don't disagree, and we have many websites and web apps as part of our projects where it makes sense. If you need to go native though, XAML is really in a league of its own for building interfaces as of right now.

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                  • K KarstenK

                    I switched from MFC/C++ and C# to iOS and never want to go back. This crappy resource editing and bloated XAML is pain in the ass. The class library from Apple are simple and they work. No fizzling around some messie bugs and annoying errors. It is hard to start, but when know enough you write mean and clean code. And it works on all systems, no big and bloaty setups with errors. :thumbsup:

                    Press F1 for help or google it. Greetings from Germany

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                    Mike Marynowski
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #35

                    We just did an evaluation of XCode 8 by updating one of our apps in the last few days and besides a few hiccups that we had to manually fix, it has been soooo much better so far...so a lot of what I said doesn't apply anymore. That was kind of odd timing with my post lol. Interface builder has become way more usable now, I think I can say I even like it.

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                    • M Mike Marynowski

                      I don't know what to say, that hasn't been my experience with it :/ What part of it is slow specifically? Could it be related to a plugin?

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                      Herbie Mountjoy
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #36

                      Possibly. There are so many unused items installed by default that this is possibly the reason. For instance I recently installed Xamarin and was appalled at how much junk it brought with it. That must slow things down. I also find that team server definitely has an impact on speed. I yearn for VS2008 which I believe was the last version not to include all the bloat.

                      We're philosophical about power outages here. A.C. come, A.C. go.

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