Are you annoyed?
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An experiment: I'm looking for customer feedback (evidence) that the VC.NET 2002 (and even 2003) project system exhibits a real-world problem that affects your adoption of the tool. In particular, that you are annoyed with how the environment displays unnecessary messages during the build process about how projects in the solution are up to date. If you're truly blocked by this "feature", please email me with a brief description of your experience. I likely will NOT get back to you directly, but there is a chance you'll be contacted for follow-up information by someone on my team. This input will be used to help us determine the priority of a potential fix. Please be sure to include the text "project is up to date" in the subject line of your email. If you prefer not to email me directly, you can respond to this thread. And, please use this email address: nick@codeproject.com Thanks, Nick Hodapp Product Manager Visual C++ .NET This posting is provided “AS IS” with no warranties, and confers no rights. You assume all risk for your use. © 2003 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
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An experiment: I'm looking for customer feedback (evidence) that the VC.NET 2002 (and even 2003) project system exhibits a real-world problem that affects your adoption of the tool. In particular, that you are annoyed with how the environment displays unnecessary messages during the build process about how projects in the solution are up to date. If you're truly blocked by this "feature", please email me with a brief description of your experience. I likely will NOT get back to you directly, but there is a chance you'll be contacted for follow-up information by someone on my team. This input will be used to help us determine the priority of a potential fix. Please be sure to include the text "project is up to date" in the subject line of your email. If you prefer not to email me directly, you can respond to this thread. And, please use this email address: nick@codeproject.com Thanks, Nick Hodapp Product Manager Visual C++ .NET This posting is provided “AS IS” with no warranties, and confers no rights. You assume all risk for your use. © 2003 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
Nick Hodapp (MSFT) wrote: I'm looking for customer feedback (evidence) that the VC.NET 2002 (and even 2003) project system exhibits a real-world problem that affects your adoption of the tool. In particular, that you are annoyed with how the environment displays unnecessary messages during the build process about how projects in the solution are up to date. My guess is that it would be annoying if you had a lot of projects but, at present, I don't. One incredibly annoying thing is that the filter system for the documentation is broken. For example, if I filter by Platform SDK, then the "User Interface Design and Development" section is missing a whole lot of stuff including the "Windows User Interface" subsection containing Controls, Resources, User Input and Windowing (which includes Dialogs). As a consequence, I never use the filters, which means I have to wade through acres of irrelevant material to get to what I want. Edit: Integrating the "Favourites" with the IE Favourites was a really bad idea; it just creates another folder layer that I have to go through to get to what I want. John Carson
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I agree.. I love the classwizard. NOBODY is going to take that away from me :-P (well maybe a large bribe ;P) -Steven
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An experiment: I'm looking for customer feedback (evidence) that the VC.NET 2002 (and even 2003) project system exhibits a real-world problem that affects your adoption of the tool. In particular, that you are annoyed with how the environment displays unnecessary messages during the build process about how projects in the solution are up to date. If you're truly blocked by this "feature", please email me with a brief description of your experience. I likely will NOT get back to you directly, but there is a chance you'll be contacted for follow-up information by someone on my team. This input will be used to help us determine the priority of a potential fix. Please be sure to include the text "project is up to date" in the subject line of your email. If you prefer not to email me directly, you can respond to this thread. And, please use this email address: nick@codeproject.com Thanks, Nick Hodapp Product Manager Visual C++ .NET This posting is provided “AS IS” with no warranties, and confers no rights. You assume all risk for your use. © 2003 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
hey nick Not particularly relevant, but i just want to thank the VS team for ditching the class wizard after VS6. Having most of the functionality available in a non-modal sidebar is really quite nice - windows between me & my editor are no fun. :)
- Shog9 -
Fat and soft, pink and weak / Foot and thigh, tongue and cheek You know I'm told they swallow you whole / Skin and bone. - Queens of the Stone Age, Mosquito Song
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An experiment: I'm looking for customer feedback (evidence) that the VC.NET 2002 (and even 2003) project system exhibits a real-world problem that affects your adoption of the tool. In particular, that you are annoyed with how the environment displays unnecessary messages during the build process about how projects in the solution are up to date. If you're truly blocked by this "feature", please email me with a brief description of your experience. I likely will NOT get back to you directly, but there is a chance you'll be contacted for follow-up information by someone on my team. This input will be used to help us determine the priority of a potential fix. Please be sure to include the text "project is up to date" in the subject line of your email. If you prefer not to email me directly, you can respond to this thread. And, please use this email address: nick@codeproject.com Thanks, Nick Hodapp Product Manager Visual C++ .NET This posting is provided “AS IS” with no warranties, and confers no rights. You assume all risk for your use. © 2003 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
Converting projects from VS6 is horrible. I use some third party utilities from National Instruments, and they don't work in VS7. They make a new version for .Net, but I had a hard enough time arguing for a copy of VS7 and no one will buy me the new 3rd party stuff. I have to waste time developing cute database apps with VB to justify the VS7 upgrade! X| And I agree with lauren, the plastic surgery of the class wizard sucks hardcore (to put it nicely). What would be way cool is a powerful class wizard with a WM_APP message map wizard built in! :cool: - Nitron
"Those that say a task is impossible shouldn't interrupt the ones who are doing it." - Chinese Proverb
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hey nick Not particularly relevant, but i just want to thank the VS team for ditching the class wizard after VS6. Having most of the functionality available in a non-modal sidebar is really quite nice - windows between me & my editor are no fun. :)
- Shog9 -
Fat and soft, pink and weak / Foot and thigh, tongue and cheek You know I'm told they swallow you whole / Skin and bone. - Queens of the Stone Age, Mosquito Song
Shog9 wrote: but i just want to thank the VS team for ditching the class wizard after VS6. :wtf: You've got to be kidding! Maybe it's my fault for not getting familiar enough with the sidebar stuff, but the first thing I did when I opened the IDE was nix all the side windows so I can see my code. - Nitron
"Those that say a task is impossible shouldn't interrupt the ones who are doing it." - Chinese Proverb
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Shog9 wrote: but i just want to thank the VS team for ditching the class wizard after VS6. :wtf: You've got to be kidding! Maybe it's my fault for not getting familiar enough with the sidebar stuff, but the first thing I did when I opened the IDE was nix all the side windows so I can see my code. - Nitron
"Those that say a task is impossible shouldn't interrupt the ones who are doing it." - Chinese Proverb
Nitron wrote: nix all the side windows so I can see my code Dude! Just unpin them so they collapse when you move the mouse and focus off of them! This way, they're always there, just a flick of the mouse away, but they take up hardly any room! I have much more room for the actual editing windows in VS.NET than in VS6 :)
- Shog9 -
Fat and soft, pink and weak / Foot and thigh, tongue and cheek You know I'm told they swallow you whole / Skin and bone. - Queens of the Stone Age, Mosquito Song
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Nitron wrote: nix all the side windows so I can see my code Dude! Just unpin them so they collapse when you move the mouse and focus off of them! This way, they're always there, just a flick of the mouse away, but they take up hardly any room! I have much more room for the actual editing windows in VS.NET than in VS6 :)
- Shog9 -
Fat and soft, pink and weak / Foot and thigh, tongue and cheek You know I'm told they swallow you whole / Skin and bone. - Queens of the Stone Age, Mosquito Song
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ok, that's cool! :cool: Now what's the easy way to add member variables and member functions? :~ - Nitron
"Those that say a task is impossible shouldn't interrupt the ones who are doing it." - Chinese Proverb
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ok, that's cool! :cool: Now what's the easy way to add member variables and member functions? :~ - Nitron
"Those that say a task is impossible shouldn't interrupt the ones who are doing it." - Chinese Proverb
Just right click on the class you want to add method in the class view and choose add. You will be able to see few selections whether to add fields or etc. It is the same way you did it in VC6.
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An experiment: I'm looking for customer feedback (evidence) that the VC.NET 2002 (and even 2003) project system exhibits a real-world problem that affects your adoption of the tool. In particular, that you are annoyed with how the environment displays unnecessary messages during the build process about how projects in the solution are up to date. If you're truly blocked by this "feature", please email me with a brief description of your experience. I likely will NOT get back to you directly, but there is a chance you'll be contacted for follow-up information by someone on my team. This input will be used to help us determine the priority of a potential fix. Please be sure to include the text "project is up to date" in the subject line of your email. If you prefer not to email me directly, you can respond to this thread. And, please use this email address: nick@codeproject.com Thanks, Nick Hodapp Product Manager Visual C++ .NET This posting is provided “AS IS” with no warranties, and confers no rights. You assume all risk for your use. © 2003 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
Nick Hodapp (MSFT) wrote: I'm looking for customer feedback (evidence) that the VC.NET 2002 (and even 2003) project system exhibits a real-world problem that affects your adoption of the tool. Sure, here you have it: 1. It's slow. Really really slooooow. 2. It's buggy, at least 2002 version crashes way too often and then it just re-starts (betting I won't notice or what?). Even a simple operations like adding the class for a dialog puts it down. 3. Lack of backward-compatibility. E.g. I can convert the VC60 project to the new VC70 project, but then if I change some settings I can't export it back to VC60. There is a tool at CP that does that, but IMHO that should be build-in. And all the VC60 addins are not working any more, but it should be simple to implement a proxy interface to allow them to operate. People are like spaghetti - you need to pull them, not to push them. 4. It's lame at times. It has many fesatures of VC60 missing and so it doesn't feel like an upgrade but rather the opposite. E.g. most of the code wizards are very simplistic and look like "5 minutes of work just before the relase". Then, once you get to those wizards you may notice that even the edit boxes there are screwed - I can't get the right-click menu to copy/paste stuff!? 5. It does stupid things. One example is the source control support where it creates some temporary files, adds then to source safe, then checks them out and then removes them. That effectively fills the history of changes with lots of noise and make the history view pretty much useless. It also tends to add the "afxwin.h" include here and there for no reason. Time to stop the micro-management I tell ya... As for the messages - the general rule applies that if it goes to the output window then it's fine. If it pops-up and asks me to take some action then it's probably bad. If it pops-up just to tell me something, but it gives me only an "OK" button to confirm that it's very bad.
/* I C++, therefore I am... */
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An experiment: I'm looking for customer feedback (evidence) that the VC.NET 2002 (and even 2003) project system exhibits a real-world problem that affects your adoption of the tool. In particular, that you are annoyed with how the environment displays unnecessary messages during the build process about how projects in the solution are up to date. If you're truly blocked by this "feature", please email me with a brief description of your experience. I likely will NOT get back to you directly, but there is a chance you'll be contacted for follow-up information by someone on my team. This input will be used to help us determine the priority of a potential fix. Please be sure to include the text "project is up to date" in the subject line of your email. If you prefer not to email me directly, you can respond to this thread. And, please use this email address: nick@codeproject.com Thanks, Nick Hodapp Product Manager Visual C++ .NET This posting is provided “AS IS” with no warranties, and confers no rights. You assume all risk for your use. © 2003 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
one suggestion to all : don't port your working c++ VC6 to VC.NET++ : it's full of bugs, the most amazings are in the resource editor : a holy crap which can mess your project in a second. Major bugs (like i.e. http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb%3Ben-us%3B322621) cannot find a resolution quickly (try to contact MS support if you don't believe me to obtain a fix). Porting a project running on VC.NET 2002 to 2003 starts with a lot of 'INTERNAL COMPILER ERROR' which seems unbelievable to my eyes 'cos I thought most of the major bugs were resolved, but more are coming. stay with VC6 in your production enviroment. It's not a rant, I'm just trying to save you some time. X| X|
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An experiment: I'm looking for customer feedback (evidence) that the VC.NET 2002 (and even 2003) project system exhibits a real-world problem that affects your adoption of the tool. In particular, that you are annoyed with how the environment displays unnecessary messages during the build process about how projects in the solution are up to date. If you're truly blocked by this "feature", please email me with a brief description of your experience. I likely will NOT get back to you directly, but there is a chance you'll be contacted for follow-up information by someone on my team. This input will be used to help us determine the priority of a potential fix. Please be sure to include the text "project is up to date" in the subject line of your email. If you prefer not to email me directly, you can respond to this thread. And, please use this email address: nick@codeproject.com Thanks, Nick Hodapp Product Manager Visual C++ .NET This posting is provided “AS IS” with no warranties, and confers no rights. You assume all risk for your use. © 2003 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
Great, you pick the bug I don't notice. The most consistant daily annoyance is the new splitter windows which are totally broken. You can't drag the splitter all the way down making the top window the "active" window. (I've yet to find another MS app that has this absurd behavior.) * "find next error" acts oddly. Besides changing the hot keys for no reason, depending on the focus, sometimes it doesn't do anything, unlike in VC6. * You can't delete a configuration. (And I mean so it's not in the .vcproj file anymore.) I've had to edit way too many .vcproj files by hand. * The class wizard has some nice things, but why not ALSO have the wonderful VC6 class wizard available? That class wizard let me see and edit so many aspects of a class at a glance. Then there's the deletion issue. * Then there's the myriad of bugs in the IDE which indicate complete laziness on the part of testers. My favorite:
When viewing combobox properties, for "Behavior|Data" the description
(at the bottom of the properties pane) reads:"Specifies data (separated by semicolons) for population of the
control with. (Separate items with semicolons)"(The whole method of dealing with comboboxes sucks completely and is chock full of bugs. In case the developers didn't realize, comboboxes are lists of items! This is why you should show a, suprise, surprise, LIST.) * Finally, there is the very annoying issue where the custom toolbar settings get reset everytime I change certain settings, esp. add-ins. (The bottom line is I use VC7 because of the newer compiler, headers and libraries. If you updated VC6 with the new compiler, linker, headers, libraries, new STL and MFC fixes, I'd go back to it in a heartbeat, even if it meant converting my project files by hand. A small team of engineers could do this project inside six months. While at it, they could fix many of the outstanding, yet very minor compared to VC7, bugs.) PS. Added later: * While working, suddenly VS.NET will "decide" to do a shitload of background work which stalls the entire application. * I spawn help from instance 1, open instance 2. Shut down instance 1 and it shuts down the help! * Lack of global setting to force all files to use specified line terminator when saved. * The autocomplete stuff, or whatever it's called, doesn't [always?] understand derived classes, especially with overloaded functions. * Resource editor switching needs to be smarter. If I'm editing a dialog box, then switch to a cpp file, and the "Toolbo
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:laugh::laugh::laugh: "Please don't put cigarette butts in the urinal. It makes them soggy and hard to light" - Sign in a Bullhead City, AZ Restroom
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An experiment: I'm looking for customer feedback (evidence) that the VC.NET 2002 (and even 2003) project system exhibits a real-world problem that affects your adoption of the tool. In particular, that you are annoyed with how the environment displays unnecessary messages during the build process about how projects in the solution are up to date. If you're truly blocked by this "feature", please email me with a brief description of your experience. I likely will NOT get back to you directly, but there is a chance you'll be contacted for follow-up information by someone on my team. This input will be used to help us determine the priority of a potential fix. Please be sure to include the text "project is up to date" in the subject line of your email. If you prefer not to email me directly, you can respond to this thread. And, please use this email address: nick@codeproject.com Thanks, Nick Hodapp Product Manager Visual C++ .NET This posting is provided “AS IS” with no warranties, and confers no rights. You assume all risk for your use. © 2003 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
Not so much annoyed as frustrated. VS.NET 2002 seems rather unstable to me - particularly when configuring add-ins. VC6 is far easier to work with in that regard (fewer/simpler registry keys to set) and much less likely to crash on startup. Another issue I've noticed is that for some reason startup time with VS.NET can sometimes be of the order of a couple of minutes, even when launched by double clicking on a file in explorer. This is on a 2GHz Xeon with SCSI disk by the way! My team are still using VC6, and have no plans in the immediate future to upgrade, although it will happen sooner or later. Since our product is so large (50 projects, mixed COM/ATL and MFC) the dependency checking issue is a big one for us. VC6 is slow enough already, especially when starting a debug run. If VS.NET 2003 isn't noticeably faster, it's much less likely to get adopted. Finally, there is one other area that annoys the hell out of me. The VS.NET installer is by far the slowest and most fragile I've ever seen. It's just as well it doesn't have to be run often. As a team, what we need are stability, speed and productivity. VS.NET 2002 has the productivity nailed in most respects (except for that awful property inspector you have in there - it's a true pig for editing resources and installers), but is sadly lacking so far in the other areas. Unlike many, I don't miss ClassWizard one bit. Anna :rose: Homepage | My life in tears "Be yourself - not what others think you should be" - Marcia Graesch "Anna's just a sexy-looking lesbian tart" - A friend, trying to wind me up. It didn't work. Trouble with resource IDs? Try the Resource ID Organiser Visual C++ Add-In
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An experiment: I'm looking for customer feedback (evidence) that the VC.NET 2002 (and even 2003) project system exhibits a real-world problem that affects your adoption of the tool. In particular, that you are annoyed with how the environment displays unnecessary messages during the build process about how projects in the solution are up to date. If you're truly blocked by this "feature", please email me with a brief description of your experience. I likely will NOT get back to you directly, but there is a chance you'll be contacted for follow-up information by someone on my team. This input will be used to help us determine the priority of a potential fix. Please be sure to include the text "project is up to date" in the subject line of your email. If you prefer not to email me directly, you can respond to this thread. And, please use this email address: nick@codeproject.com Thanks, Nick Hodapp Product Manager Visual C++ .NET This posting is provided “AS IS” with no warranties, and confers no rights. You assume all risk for your use. © 2003 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
Well there are a couple of things that have annoyed both me and my students:
- when I assign an ID to a toolbar button the ID does not show up in the Events list in the properties for my main window (or any window for that matter). I have to create a corresponding menuitem first, give it a id, and THEN give the toolbar button the same ID. Note that if I use the former method the ID may show up in the Events list after a menuitem with the same ID has been added but only the numeric value, not the named constant.
- Some students of mine have experienced that ID's are given values equal to 0. I havent seen it myself but this is a known bug apparently.
- on some computers a lot of toolbars are displayed inside VS.NET and they are all empty! I.e. there are two "Dialog" toolbars, one with all the regular items and one completely empty; the same applies to other toolbars.
- some students of mine have experienced VS.NET program termination when they select properties for anything at all. Probably some user profile problem but annoying nonetheless and some error message (any error message actually!) would be helpful. Instead, VS.NET is simply closed without any warning.
- when I select a file in the solution explorer I can't see the full path of the file. This is SOOO annoying. I would like to be able to see the project location as well. Instead I have to open the file and then go to File - Save As to see where the default location is to determine where the file is located.
- the toolbox' inability to be visible when the dialog editor is active but inactive otherwise. Why would I want a toolbox to select edit boxes etc. when I'm editing a .cpp file? Again, this worked OK in VC++ 6.0 which makes it even more annoying.
- the properties window takes some time to get used to and even then I'm not completely satisfied. For instance, when a boolean value must be switched it takes at least a doubleclick when a checkbox would have accepted a single click.
- It wouldn't have been so hard to have a Project - Settings menuitem (and even let it respond to Alt+F7) but Noooooo. Instead it must be renamed to Project Properties (I can live with that) and is only accessible if the project node is selected in the tree or by rightclicking on the project node.
- The code generation is actually much better than in VC 6.0 (no more stupid ClassWizard //{{AFX_xxx comments) but when I create a new class their constructor and destructor are created with void para
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Well there are a couple of things that have annoyed both me and my students:
- when I assign an ID to a toolbar button the ID does not show up in the Events list in the properties for my main window (or any window for that matter). I have to create a corresponding menuitem first, give it a id, and THEN give the toolbar button the same ID. Note that if I use the former method the ID may show up in the Events list after a menuitem with the same ID has been added but only the numeric value, not the named constant.
- Some students of mine have experienced that ID's are given values equal to 0. I havent seen it myself but this is a known bug apparently.
- on some computers a lot of toolbars are displayed inside VS.NET and they are all empty! I.e. there are two "Dialog" toolbars, one with all the regular items and one completely empty; the same applies to other toolbars.
- some students of mine have experienced VS.NET program termination when they select properties for anything at all. Probably some user profile problem but annoying nonetheless and some error message (any error message actually!) would be helpful. Instead, VS.NET is simply closed without any warning.
- when I select a file in the solution explorer I can't see the full path of the file. This is SOOO annoying. I would like to be able to see the project location as well. Instead I have to open the file and then go to File - Save As to see where the default location is to determine where the file is located.
- the toolbox' inability to be visible when the dialog editor is active but inactive otherwise. Why would I want a toolbox to select edit boxes etc. when I'm editing a .cpp file? Again, this worked OK in VC++ 6.0 which makes it even more annoying.
- the properties window takes some time to get used to and even then I'm not completely satisfied. For instance, when a boolean value must be switched it takes at least a doubleclick when a checkbox would have accepted a single click.
- It wouldn't have been so hard to have a Project - Settings menuitem (and even let it respond to Alt+F7) but Noooooo. Instead it must be renamed to Project Properties (I can live with that) and is only accessible if the project node is selected in the tree or by rightclicking on the project node.
- The code generation is actually much better than in VC 6.0 (no more stupid ClassWizard //{{AFX_xxx comments) but when I create a new class their constructor and destructor are created with void para
I believe a few of these items are only because mastering a rich IDE takes time. Take one for instance : "the toolbox' inability to be visible when the dialog editor is active but inactive otherwise. Why would I want a toolbox to select edit boxes etc. when I'm editing a .cpp file? Again, this worked OK in VC++ 6.0 which makes it even more annoying." --> the only thing you have to do is drag the toolbox window into the project window. It will add a tab and won't bother you while doing .cpp stuff. While being extremely quick to display when you are editing a form/dialog. Same for Properties Window, etc.
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Nick Hodapp (MSFT) wrote: I'm looking for customer feedback (evidence) that the VC.NET 2002 (and even 2003) project system exhibits a real-world problem that affects your adoption of the tool. In particular, that you are annoyed with how the environment displays unnecessary messages during the build process about how projects in the solution are up to date. My guess is that it would be annoying if you had a lot of projects but, at present, I don't. One incredibly annoying thing is that the filter system for the documentation is broken. For example, if I filter by Platform SDK, then the "User Interface Design and Development" section is missing a whole lot of stuff including the "Windows User Interface" subsection containing Controls, Resources, User Input and Windowing (which includes Dialogs). As a consequence, I never use the filters, which means I have to wade through acres of irrelevant material to get to what I want. Edit: Integrating the "Favourites" with the IE Favourites was a really bad idea; it just creates another folder layer that I have to go through to get to what I want. John Carson
John Carson wrote: Edit: Integrating the "Favourites" with the IE Favourites was a really bad idea; it just creates another folder layer that I have to go through to get to what I want. I agree.
David Wulff
Hanging on this wire Waiting for the day where I'll have to choose Cursed by love so dire
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That's what I do. :rolleyes: But then I often use messages and DDX functions that ClassWizard can't handle anyway. ;) Anna :rose: Homepage | My life in tears "Be yourself - not what others think you should be" - Marcia Graesch "Anna's just a sexy-looking lesbian tart" - A friend, trying to wind me up. It didn't work. Trouble with resource IDs? Try the Resource ID Organiser Visual C++ Add-In