Partisanship is (an awful lot like) treason
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Dean Roddey wrote:
The south broke away because of economics.
If you read their documents of secession or read the Cornerstone speech, the South went to war over slavery.
Dean Roddey wrote:
They didn't consider it treason of course.
Maybe, maybe not. It was still treason.
Dean Roddey wrote:
And of course it wasn't a matter of left/right.
Whether you chose to call it left/right or liberal/conservative or something else, it was still a partisan divide. One was right and the other was wrong.
Before the oath, Trump has managed to surpass 2nd term Nixon for paranoia, 2nd term Reagan for corruption & 2nd term Bush for incompetence.--R. Schooley Frank Wilhoit: “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” The president fired the FBI director to obstruct a federal investigation into possible collusion with a foreign power to fix an election. - Jesse Berne
Slavery WAS economics. Anyway, I'm not going any further down this road. This is how the internet works, it becomes some he said/she said argument over things that are not really relevant to the original point.
Explorans limites defectum
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Slavery WAS economics. Anyway, I'm not going any further down this road. This is how the internet works, it becomes some he said/she said argument over things that are not really relevant to the original point.
Explorans limites defectum
Dean Roddey wrote:
things that are not really relevant to the original point.
I'm still wonder why you don't think the political opponents at the time of that war were not partisan. They very much were.
Before the oath, Trump has managed to surpass 2nd term Nixon for paranoia, 2nd term Reagan for corruption & 2nd term Bush for incompetence.--R. Schooley Frank Wilhoit: “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” The president fired the FBI director to obstruct a federal investigation into possible collusion with a foreign power to fix an election. - Jesse Berne
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Slavery WAS economics. Anyway, I'm not going any further down this road. This is how the internet works, it becomes some he said/she said argument over things that are not really relevant to the original point.
Explorans limites defectum
Dean Roddey wrote:
Slavery WAS economics.
It was to the people who considered certain human beings as nothing more than property. They never were property. Slavery is not economics, it's a violation of human rights.
Before the oath, Trump has managed to surpass 2nd term Nixon for paranoia, 2nd term Reagan for corruption & 2nd term Bush for incompetence.--R. Schooley Frank Wilhoit: “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” The president fired the FBI director to obstruct a federal investigation into possible collusion with a foreign power to fix an election. - Jesse Berne
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Dean Roddey wrote:
Slavery WAS economics.
It was to the people who considered certain human beings as nothing more than property. They never were property. Slavery is not economics, it's a violation of human rights.
Before the oath, Trump has managed to surpass 2nd term Nixon for paranoia, 2nd term Reagan for corruption & 2nd term Bush for incompetence.--R. Schooley Frank Wilhoit: “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” The president fired the FBI director to obstruct a federal investigation into possible collusion with a foreign power to fix an election. - Jesse Berne
Sigh... Of course it is, to us today. But they didn't keep slaves because they thought abusing Africans was fun (though some of them might.) They kept slaves because free labor was a massive benefit to their economy and having to give it up was going to cost them a lot. That's why they tried to leave the union, to keep that economic benefit.
Explorans limites defectum
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Sigh... Of course it is, to us today. But they didn't keep slaves because they thought abusing Africans was fun (though some of them might.) They kept slaves because free labor was a massive benefit to their economy and having to give it up was going to cost them a lot. That's why they tried to leave the union, to keep that economic benefit.
Explorans limites defectum
Dean Roddey wrote:
Of course it is, to us today.
Do you actually believe the abolitionists opposed slavery on economic grounds? No, they didn't. This was very much a partisan issue at the time.
Dean Roddey wrote:
they tried to leave the union, to keep that economic benefit.
The economic benefit of treating human beings as property and stealing their labor - and doing so with rape, murder, and destruction of families.
Before the oath, Trump has managed to surpass 2nd term Nixon for paranoia, 2nd term Reagan for corruption & 2nd term Bush for incompetence.--R. Schooley Frank Wilhoit: “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” The president fired the FBI director to obstruct a federal investigation into possible collusion with a foreign power to fix an election. - Jesse Berne
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Dean Roddey wrote:
Of course it is, to us today.
Do you actually believe the abolitionists opposed slavery on economic grounds? No, they didn't. This was very much a partisan issue at the time.
Dean Roddey wrote:
they tried to leave the union, to keep that economic benefit.
The economic benefit of treating human beings as property and stealing their labor - and doing so with rape, murder, and destruction of families.
Before the oath, Trump has managed to surpass 2nd term Nixon for paranoia, 2nd term Reagan for corruption & 2nd term Bush for incompetence.--R. Schooley Frank Wilhoit: “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” The president fired the FBI director to obstruct a federal investigation into possible collusion with a foreign power to fix an election. - Jesse Berne
You are arguing about things I'm not even talking about, at all.
Explorans limites defectum
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You are arguing about things I'm not even talking about, at all.
Explorans limites defectum
Dean Roddey wrote:
I'm not even talking about
But you are. You chose to respond to my post that was explicitly about slavery. Curiously you did not respond to my post about you definition of partisanship. I still don't know what you mean when you use that word.
Before the oath, Trump has managed to surpass 2nd term Nixon for paranoia, 2nd term Reagan for corruption & 2nd term Bush for incompetence.--R. Schooley Frank Wilhoit: “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” The president fired the FBI director to obstruct a federal investigation into possible collusion with a foreign power to fix an election. - Jesse Berne
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Dean Roddey wrote:
I'm not even talking about
But you are. You chose to respond to my post that was explicitly about slavery. Curiously you did not respond to my post about you definition of partisanship. I still don't know what you mean when you use that word.
Before the oath, Trump has managed to surpass 2nd term Nixon for paranoia, 2nd term Reagan for corruption & 2nd term Bush for incompetence.--R. Schooley Frank Wilhoit: “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” The president fired the FBI director to obstruct a federal investigation into possible collusion with a foreign power to fix an election. - Jesse Berne
OK, the last time and that's it. 1. Yes, there was partisanship. I went to great lengths above to explain that it was an effect, not a cause. Any time you have a very divisive issue (and civil was is pretty close to the top of the list) the ugliness will go ballistic. But it was partisanship ABOUT something, and something very substantive. The partisanship I was talking about in my original post was partisanship that is almost about its own self at this point, with haters on each side justifying their own existence by haters on the other side, grasping at anything they can use to undermine the other side, no matter how unimportant it might be to the bigger picture. And, the partisanship wasn't along party lines then, it was again about a specific issue. Lincoln had plenty of resistance in his own party. Today's partisanship is mostly just left/right bickering and the two sides trying to undermine each other and play angles to get back on top, and of course keeping anyone else not on the left or right out of the game. 2. Of course there were some people back then against slavery on moral grounds. But I was talking about the SOUTH and why they did what they did, and the fact that, without the ECONOMIC benefits of slavery it wouldn't have existed. Keeping slaves for fun would be an extraordinarily expensive thing to do. Though of course people will come up with moral, religious, etc... justifications for doing anything if it benefits them, unless you are the King of Eqypt or something, slavery was about economic benefit. And even the King Of Egypt could only keep slaves because he has the rest of the country effectively as his personal ATM. And, as I said above, these things reach the point of stupidity, because I'm now arguing with you about the freaking Civil War, which has nothing to do with anything I said in my original post, other than the (incorrect) assertion by someone that the Civil War proves our current horrible polarization isn't anything new. Of course it's not new in type, but it's new in scale. The internet and huge organizations with lots of money and applying a lot of science to manipulation of opinion is a fundamentally different thing from people putting out printed pamphlets on a small scale with fart jokes about their opponents. And that's it. I'm not going down this silly internet argument path any further.
Explorans limites defectum
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OK, the last time and that's it. 1. Yes, there was partisanship. I went to great lengths above to explain that it was an effect, not a cause. Any time you have a very divisive issue (and civil was is pretty close to the top of the list) the ugliness will go ballistic. But it was partisanship ABOUT something, and something very substantive. The partisanship I was talking about in my original post was partisanship that is almost about its own self at this point, with haters on each side justifying their own existence by haters on the other side, grasping at anything they can use to undermine the other side, no matter how unimportant it might be to the bigger picture. And, the partisanship wasn't along party lines then, it was again about a specific issue. Lincoln had plenty of resistance in his own party. Today's partisanship is mostly just left/right bickering and the two sides trying to undermine each other and play angles to get back on top, and of course keeping anyone else not on the left or right out of the game. 2. Of course there were some people back then against slavery on moral grounds. But I was talking about the SOUTH and why they did what they did, and the fact that, without the ECONOMIC benefits of slavery it wouldn't have existed. Keeping slaves for fun would be an extraordinarily expensive thing to do. Though of course people will come up with moral, religious, etc... justifications for doing anything if it benefits them, unless you are the King of Eqypt or something, slavery was about economic benefit. And even the King Of Egypt could only keep slaves because he has the rest of the country effectively as his personal ATM. And, as I said above, these things reach the point of stupidity, because I'm now arguing with you about the freaking Civil War, which has nothing to do with anything I said in my original post, other than the (incorrect) assertion by someone that the Civil War proves our current horrible polarization isn't anything new. Of course it's not new in type, but it's new in scale. The internet and huge organizations with lots of money and applying a lot of science to manipulation of opinion is a fundamentally different thing from people putting out printed pamphlets on a small scale with fart jokes about their opponents. And that's it. I'm not going down this silly internet argument path any further.
Explorans limites defectum
Dean Roddey wrote:
it was an effect, not a cause.
That is completely wrong. The partisan divide was on the issue of slavery. That partisan difference led to the war.
Quote:
an adherent or supporter of a person, group, party, or cause,
Perhaps you are surprised to discover that there were many adherents to both sides of the slavery issue long before it turned into war.
Dean Roddey wrote:
But it was partisanship ABOUT something,
It's about something now. Perhaps you think that reproductive rights, voter rights, economic inequality, plutocracy, authoritarianism and white nationalism are trivial issues. No doubt some thought slavery was also trivial.
Dean Roddey wrote:
But I was talking about the SOUTH
I am well aware. That is why I said "It was to the people who considered certain human beings as nothing more than property. They never were property. Slavery is not economics, it's a violation of human rights."
Dean Roddey wrote:
because I'm now arguing with you about the freaking Civil War
That's your choice. I'm more interested in your bizarre definition of 'partisanship'.
Before the oath, Trump has managed to surpass 2nd term Nixon for paranoia, 2nd term Reagan for corruption & 2nd term Bush for incompetence.--R. Schooley Frank Wilhoit: “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” The president fired the FBI director to obstruct a federal investigation into possible collusion with a foreign power to fix an election. - Jesse Berne
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Dean Roddey wrote:
it was an effect, not a cause.
That is completely wrong. The partisan divide was on the issue of slavery. That partisan difference led to the war.
Quote:
an adherent or supporter of a person, group, party, or cause,
Perhaps you are surprised to discover that there were many adherents to both sides of the slavery issue long before it turned into war.
Dean Roddey wrote:
But it was partisanship ABOUT something,
It's about something now. Perhaps you think that reproductive rights, voter rights, economic inequality, plutocracy, authoritarianism and white nationalism are trivial issues. No doubt some thought slavery was also trivial.
Dean Roddey wrote:
But I was talking about the SOUTH
I am well aware. That is why I said "It was to the people who considered certain human beings as nothing more than property. They never were property. Slavery is not economics, it's a violation of human rights."
Dean Roddey wrote:
because I'm now arguing with you about the freaking Civil War
That's your choice. I'm more interested in your bizarre definition of 'partisanship'.
Before the oath, Trump has managed to surpass 2nd term Nixon for paranoia, 2nd term Reagan for corruption & 2nd term Bush for incompetence.--R. Schooley Frank Wilhoit: “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” The president fired the FBI director to obstruct a federal investigation into possible collusion with a foreign power to fix an election. - Jesse Berne
You are being ignored because you are continuing to just make up stuff I've never said or implied or disagreed with.
Explorans limites defectum
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You are being ignored because you are continuing to just make up stuff I've never said or implied or disagreed with.
Explorans limites defectum
Do run away. FYI - When I chose to ignore someone I neither read nor respond to the posts that I have chosen to ignore. TTYL
Before the oath, Trump has managed to surpass 2nd term Nixon for paranoia, 2nd term Reagan for corruption & 2nd term Bush for incompetence.--R. Schooley Frank Wilhoit: “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” The president fired the FBI director to obstruct a federal investigation into possible collusion with a foreign power to fix an election. - Jesse Berne
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Do run away. FYI - When I chose to ignore someone I neither read nor respond to the posts that I have chosen to ignore. TTYL
Before the oath, Trump has managed to surpass 2nd term Nixon for paranoia, 2nd term Reagan for corruption & 2nd term Bush for incompetence.--R. Schooley Frank Wilhoit: “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” The president fired the FBI director to obstruct a federal investigation into possible collusion with a foreign power to fix an election. - Jesse Berne
I am running away, from the silliness that makes up most internet 'debates'. You will continue to ignore what I say and change from one thing to another and three days from now you'll have me arguing about the Higgs Boson and crepes, none of which is relevant to anything I was saying. If you would go back and even remotely read what I've written you'd see that everything you keep bringing up I've already covered. There's no point in continuing around in a circle.
Explorans limites defectum
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That was NOT partisanship. That was a war over economics (and slavery of course though at that time it was primarily an economic issue.) Completely different. It wasn't about who was on top, it was about the southern states having gotten themselves addicted to free labor and being forced to give it up, at great monetary cost to the wealthy who lived there.
Explorans limites defectum
Dean Roddey wrote:
That was NOT partisanship.
Comedy gold.
"Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity." - Hanlon's Razor
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Dean Roddey wrote:
1. Encourage xenophobia, racism, class-ism, and so forth with the intent of undermining our society and political system 2. Work hard to prevent large swaths of the population from rising to their potential 3. Spread nasty rumors that are specifically intended to undermine anyone who doesn't share your own views 4. Put your own interests ahead of the interests of the people 5. Block success of any change or process if it doesn't work to your own advantage, or might be beneficial to the 'other side' 6. Just assuming that the 'other side' is guilty of anything the partisan political organization you call the news tells you they did, while denying to the death that your side ever does anything wrong (ironically both providing cover for real abuse of power while simultaneously making it easy to use false claims of such as a weapon or an attention deflection mechanism.)
Democrats.
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other. Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it. Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
If you were any more full-of-shit your birth certificate would be made of toilet paper. When Obama was elected, the GOPigs openly declared they'll try to make sure nothing gets done so they can win the next presidential election. That failed, but the real thought you should have had, but clearly didn't is: The GOPigs, by deliberately block legislation, even if it's in the best interests of the country, were guilty of moral and ethical (but alas, not legal) treason. They put their party before their country. They still do -
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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If you were any more full-of-shit your birth certificate would be made of toilet paper. When Obama was elected, the GOPigs openly declared they'll try to make sure nothing gets done so they can win the next presidential election. That failed, but the real thought you should have had, but clearly didn't is: The GOPigs, by deliberately block legislation, even if it's in the best interests of the country, were guilty of moral and ethical (but alas, not legal) treason. They put their party before their country. They still do -
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
I pointed out that the 6 things listed are things that the Democrats do. Your immature and emotionally juvenile response did not even address anything in my post. Liberal Triggered!! Take a deep breath, gather up your emotions and put them aside, look for your logic box and then come back and have a discussion. If you can.
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other. Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it. Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
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If you were any more full-of-shit your birth certificate would be made of toilet paper. When Obama was elected, the GOPigs openly declared they'll try to make sure nothing gets done so they can win the next presidential election. That failed, but the real thought you should have had, but clearly didn't is: The GOPigs, by deliberately block legislation, even if it's in the best interests of the country, were guilty of moral and ethical (but alas, not legal) treason. They put their party before their country. They still do -
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
W∴ Balboos wrote:
The GOPigs, by deliberately block legislation, even if it's in the best interests of the country, were guilty of moral and ethical (but alas, not legal) treason. They put their party before their country.
Agreed. It was shameful. And now the Democrats are doing EXACTLY THE SAME THING! Also shameful.
The Beer Prayer - Our lager, which art in barrels, hallowed be thy drink. Thy will be drunk, I will be drunk, at home as it is in the tavern. Give us this day our foamy head, and forgive us our spillage as we forgive those who spill against us. And lead us not to incarceration, but deliver us from hangovers. For thine is the beer, the bitter and the lager, for ever and ever. Barmen.
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If you were any more full-of-shit your birth certificate would be made of toilet paper. When Obama was elected, the GOPigs openly declared they'll try to make sure nothing gets done so they can win the next presidential election. That failed, but the real thought you should have had, but clearly didn't is: The GOPigs, by deliberately block legislation, even if it's in the best interests of the country, were guilty of moral and ethical (but alas, not legal) treason. They put their party before their country. They still do -
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
:thumbsup:
Before the oath, Trump has managed to surpass 2nd term Nixon for paranoia, 2nd term Reagan for corruption & 2nd term Bush for incompetence.--R. Schooley Frank Wilhoit: “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.” The president fired the FBI director to obstruct a federal investigation into possible collusion with a foreign power to fix an election. - Jesse Berne
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Dean Roddey wrote:
That was NOT partisanship.
Comedy gold.
"Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by stupidity." - Hanlon's Razor
The Civil War was about economics. Obviously there was 'partisanship' as there will be in any war, but it wasn't petty bickering over who gets to sit in the big chair. There was serious poop hitting the rotating air foil. And it wasn't the cause of the war, it was caused by the war, and the inevitable encouragement of hate towards the other side that always happens in a conflict. The hate that develops when your relatives are being killed in large numbers is not partisanship in the terms I was discussing. Did none of you even read my original post? I was very explicitly talking about non-substantive partisanship that is purely just left vs. right bickering and playing the game of thrones. I was talking about stalling our progress and undermining our political system and causing massive cynicism in the population purely to get back on top. And of course the fact that there is now a massive, freely available, world-wide platform for people to demonstrate their polarization, and it's nasty. Go to any video on Youtube that is remotely political and see how much of it is nothing but 'no, you are' bickering by people who have been so polarized that they pretty much see the world in terms of left and right and believe the other side is inherently corrupt while theirs is not. Add to that the large bucks being thrown into the process of generating polarization in order to keep market share by news organizations. That's not about abortion or civil rights or any other substantive social issue.
Explorans limites defectum
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I pointed out that the 6 things listed are things that the Democrats do. Your immature and emotionally juvenile response did not even address anything in my post. Liberal Triggered!! Take a deep breath, gather up your emotions and put them aside, look for your logic box and then come back and have a discussion. If you can.
Social Media - A platform that makes it easier for the crazies to find each other. Everyone is born right handed. Only the strongest overcome it. Fight for left-handed rights and hand equality.
A list as declared by the GOPigs - they say and that's enough for you: you believe.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010
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W∴ Balboos wrote:
The GOPigs, by deliberately block legislation, even if it's in the best interests of the country, were guilty of moral and ethical (but alas, not legal) treason. They put their party before their country.
Agreed. It was shameful. And now the Democrats are doing EXACTLY THE SAME THING! Also shameful.
The Beer Prayer - Our lager, which art in barrels, hallowed be thy drink. Thy will be drunk, I will be drunk, at home as it is in the tavern. Give us this day our foamy head, and forgive us our spillage as we forgive those who spill against us. And lead us not to incarceration, but deliver us from hangovers. For thine is the beer, the bitter and the lager, for ever and ever. Barmen.
Actually - the only way to tell if that's what they're doing is for them to keep doing it. To explain: That ball-of-shit-with-orange-trim in the White House continues to obstruct any investigation into the crap he's been pulling since he started his campaign and still does in office. Countless bare-faced lies (he didn't remember, during his campaign, that he was involved in the most lucrative deal of his life with Moscow?) As per the Mueller report, he seems to have made a career out of obstructing justice. It's seems all but impossible to find anything in which he's been involved that is not corrupt (foundation, Hump Univ, &etc.). So - if the Democrats investigate and find nothing - he's a big winner - but all indications are that he's scared shitless that he'll end his term in federal prison. Important News Flash! I did find out about some fake news claims made by the Hump were accurate - about him in Moscow and the 'yellow rain'. It turns out there were no Hookers! It was Putin - he was in drag. The rest of the story remains the same.
"The difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits." - Albert Einstein
"If you are searching for perfection in others, then you seek disappointment. If you are seek perfection in yourself, then you will find failure." - Balboos HaGadol Mar 2010