The US/China standoff -- opinions from the rest of the world?
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Should the US aplogize? Yes.United States should apologize for bumping the plane into Chinese fighter F-8 Should the US cut off trade relations? Well,U.S is heavily relied on China,and it has given most favored status to China.Putting sanctions on China would adversly effect both China & U.S Should the crew be held in China? They should be tried according to Chinese laws. Should the plane be returned to the US? Well,it should. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: Visual Basic programmer. -------------------------------------------------- Share your thoughts..
Well....if a bike is hit by a car in China, should the biker jump up and apologize or is it up to the car driver? In this case, I think most people recoginize that the fighter plane is much faster and that it couldn't have hit the F-8 unless the pilot was incompetent. At the same time, the US has expressed sorrow over the loss of the plane and pilot....no one ever likes seeing someone killed in any sort of accident. As for most favored nation status....well after being given this status you would think that would only apply to nations that don't hold your nations citizens hostage...hostage because they were not in china until they were forced to land after a crash which is very likely due to an accident caused by a chinese pilot. As for trade sanctions....I suspect that if the US crew isn't returned home sometime soon, that people in the US -- even very moderate people like myself -- will say its the only way without a war to bring our people home...so what if there is an adverse effect....its better to stand up for your freedom than to rollover an play dead.
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Answers as follows: 1/ Yes. If you're spying, you're spying. Sheesh. 2/ No. I'd say that it's probable that China caused the accident, probably on purpose. However, see answer one. You want a war with the biggest army on the planey because they don't like you spying on them ? 3/ Of course not. They should be treated fairly and released in a timely fashion. 4/ I don't know - I'd suggest they will return it once they have learned all they can from it. Christian The content of this post is not necessarily the opinion of my yadda yadda yadda. To understand recursion, we must first understand recursion.
So what is a "timely" fashion?? The accident occured sunday and its now thursday....only one visit has been allow that I'm aware of during all that time. At the least, the international press should be allowed to speak to some of the crew if no one is allow to speak to the embassy. As for the plane....I've not heard many people in the US too concerned about it...any from the pictures of it I've seen, its amazing that they were able to land at all....the nose was missing, a chunk of the wing, and one of the props was all torn up.
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Actually Andrew, I think there is a fairly strong current of negative posts in the thread by non-americans....several posts have said that the plane was spying, and don't seem to care if the plane was in international airspace....I've only seen a couple posts which state that the crew should be returned. As for US policy...well I'm sure its going to be more isolationist with Bush, but if you understand how the US government works, not due strictly to him....we have a senate and house of representatives which are the branchs of government which actually pass laws...the president can then approve these laws or try to veto them. The president also sets the tone for international relations, but cannot in fact control what happens in the world. I'm just curious what would have happened if a similar Chinese plane was flying near a US air base on a Japanesse island what the Chinese would have said!!! I know that the air crew would have been home with 24 hours and contant would have been provided as quickly as possible.
It may have technically been in international airspace, but only by 1 mile. It then entered Chinese airspace and landed at one of their most sensitive airbases without permission. They might have called a mayday, but they didn't ask for permission. If they can spend time destoying all their crypto data, why can't they ask for permission to enter Chinese airspace? Peter
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Actually Andrew, I think there is a fairly strong current of negative posts in the thread by non-americans....several posts have said that the plane was spying, and don't seem to care if the plane was in international airspace....I've only seen a couple posts which state that the crew should be returned. As for US policy...well I'm sure its going to be more isolationist with Bush, but if you understand how the US government works, not due strictly to him....we have a senate and house of representatives which are the branchs of government which actually pass laws...the president can then approve these laws or try to veto them. The president also sets the tone for international relations, but cannot in fact control what happens in the world. I'm just curious what would have happened if a similar Chinese plane was flying near a US air base on a Japanesse island what the Chinese would have said!!! I know that the air crew would have been home with 24 hours and contant would have been provided as quickly as possible.
Unfortunatly , although there are restrictions on the presidents authority , as there is in all democracies , it is the president who appears to foriegners like myself to set the agenda ,the tone and the general direction in terms of foriegn policy. From what I can see the USA is no different from the UK in having self absorbed politicians who are too proccupied to be overly concerned about foriegn opinion on most subjects .It is left in the hands of the foreign office (or whatever the US version is ) for the spade work , and the Prime Minister / President as the figurehead when dealing with other heads of state. That is why it is alarming when GW Bush appears to walk into office and start treating foreign opinion with PUBLIC distain. It is all good and proper for him to promote US policies and for him to guide the direction of those policies , but unilateral public statements over several issues indicate that he is going to persue policies that may well lead to isonationalist results . I do not think that would be good for the longer term , especially now that globalisation is starting to erode the concept of the nation state .Now is not the time for the most powerful man in the world , to take the biggest economy in the world and turn its back on the rest of the world. It is an alarming prospect. As far as the delay , lets be realistic here , China will use every second that it can to crawl over the plane . It is just like being back in the cold war .
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Well....if a bike is hit by a car in China, should the biker jump up and apologize or is it up to the car driver? In this case, I think most people recoginize that the fighter plane is much faster and that it couldn't have hit the F-8 unless the pilot was incompetent. At the same time, the US has expressed sorrow over the loss of the plane and pilot....no one ever likes seeing someone killed in any sort of accident. As for most favored nation status....well after being given this status you would think that would only apply to nations that don't hold your nations citizens hostage...hostage because they were not in china until they were forced to land after a crash which is very likely due to an accident caused by a chinese pilot. As for trade sanctions....I suspect that if the US crew isn't returned home sometime soon, that people in the US -- even very moderate people like myself -- will say its the only way without a war to bring our people home...so what if there is an adverse effect....its better to stand up for your freedom than to rollover an play dead.
"I think most people recoginize that the fighter plane is much faster and that it couldn't have hit the F-8 unless the pilot was incompetent." Maybe - they aren't as well trained as their US counterparts and do very little night-time flying. However it's still quite possible for the big, heavy aircraft to make sudden turns and catch the fighters off guard - I think it was an accident - but it could equally have been the US plane that was at fault for the accident. In WW2 it was occasionally the case that large bombers could take fighters off guard by smashing into them. Regards, Peter
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How are we getting involved? A group of people has gotten together and formed a legitimate democratic government. There are over 165 separate nations on this planet. I know we aren't the only ones that recognize Taiwan as a separate nation (even if we do it in a subdued manner). Are you suggesting that just because the PRC calls it an internal issue that we just shrug our shoulders and say sorry? Phil Boyd MCP "I took the road less traveled..."
If I supply someone with weapons am I not involved?! Let's imagine NY state wanting to separate. Obviously the rest of America wouldn't appreciate this so they squash the idea. NY then suggests that violent measures might be need and requests for weapons to "defend" themselves. Then France comes along a states that we will supply you with the neccessary weapons you need. Wouldn't France be involved in this dispute?! So how can America say that they are not involved in this?! The American gov't has to take responsibilty for this, this situation is all due to them wanting to supply Taiwan with weapons. In a way this is like the Iran/Iraq situation. American Gov't supplies the "enemy" with weapons and watches the fireworks.
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If I supply someone with weapons am I not involved?! Let's imagine NY state wanting to separate. Obviously the rest of America wouldn't appreciate this so they squash the idea. NY then suggests that violent measures might be need and requests for weapons to "defend" themselves. Then France comes along a states that we will supply you with the neccessary weapons you need. Wouldn't France be involved in this dispute?! So how can America say that they are not involved in this?! The American gov't has to take responsibilty for this, this situation is all due to them wanting to supply Taiwan with weapons. In a way this is like the Iran/Iraq situation. American Gov't supplies the "enemy" with weapons and watches the fireworks.
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Since I still consider myself part of the US Military - not only NO! but HELL NO! Has everyone forgotten Tianemen Square and what the Chinese government did to their own people? Every non-American post I have seen here has basically raised China on a pedastel and wants to bash the US. The Chinese aircraft "attacked" an American aircraft in international waters, then held its crew in captivity, denying contact with American embassy personnel. That is illegal according to international law, and certainly not the kind of actions that the American military or government would take Phil Boyd MCP "I took the road less traveled..."
It must be frustrating for the American gov't not getting there way :eek: I think China has proved that they will run there own policies and not have any external countries (us) dictate anything.
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So what is a "timely" fashion?? The accident occured sunday and its now thursday....only one visit has been allow that I'm aware of during all that time. At the least, the international press should be allowed to speak to some of the crew if no one is allow to speak to the embassy. As for the plane....I've not heard many people in the US too concerned about it...any from the pictures of it I've seen, its amazing that they were able to land at all....the nose was missing, a chunk of the wing, and one of the props was all torn up.
If the US Gov't promised not to supply arms to Taiwan, I bet the 24 Americans and the plane would be returned with a bow on top! China's gov't doesn't really care who bumped who, all they are concerned about is the American involvement w/ Taiwan.
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The Chinese "government" needs to take account of Chinese public opinion, and believe me, it's very anti-American (and that's without the government stirring things up - although they have in the past). I believe that's why they are taking such an unusual line. Ever since the stupid bombing of the Chinese embassy, the Chinese public have on the whole been anti-American (although it was the government that made them this way initially). Cheers, Peter
I'm here to tell you that Americans are VERY anti-Chinese right now. And as for our President, I'm proud of the way he is handling this and other foreign policy issues. Give us hard evidence that global warming is real and we'll sign the Kyoto treaty otherwise we'd like to keep our energy prices low and our economy on track.
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I'm here to tell you that Americans are VERY anti-Chinese right now. And as for our President, I'm proud of the way he is handling this and other foreign policy issues. Give us hard evidence that global warming is real and we'll sign the Kyoto treaty otherwise we'd like to keep our energy prices low and our economy on track.
So when your president gives his word in international politics , it means nothing ? What am I saying ! " I never had sex with that woman" , sorry , my fault . Global warming ? Nah don't worry , you and I will be dead and who gives a flying fig what happens then ? Got to go , I have a plane to catch to the Maldives before they dissapear .:((
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"America is still pursuing its policy of "will-do-whats-best-for-us-Rest-can-go-to-hell"." -- Isn't this what every government does?? I think the fear among US policy makers with Pakistan and Palestine is way that they try to "solve" their problems....in the case of Pakistan, haven't there been 3 wars with India, and isn't there a defacto war going on between the two over who owns a few mountains?? Hasn't Pakistan set off atomic bombs within the last few years?? Palestine and Isreal are both amazing to me....why would two groups who actually share a great deal in common feel the need to be at eat others throats....when I was in europe I meet a group of Isrealis my age...they were full of such hate it amazed me. As for keeping $500 million....you must know what you're talking about, but no one I know would take money that wasn't theirs unless they were a dirt-bag.
You would think that after the treatment given to Jews by the Nazis that it would a trivial exercise for the Israeli government to realise that treating Palenstinians the way they do is wrong, quite apart from the fact they stole their country from them.
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You know, we're damned if we do and we're damned if we don't. If we had a strict policy of isolationism, we'd be criticized for not helping those less fortunate than ourselves, smaller countries, or whatever. Whenever you take a side, there will always be someone on the other side that disagrees with you and will likely be very vocal about it. So simply choosing a side is enough to get negative publicity no matter what you do. Not choosing a side also gains you negative publicity. Further, We do have treaties with other countries to help out. This allows us to protect countries like Saudi Arabia who provide so much of the oil we need. If we didn't, someone like Sadam would come in and take all the oil producing countries and hold the world hostage, again, we'd be criticized for not doing anything about it. It's a tough job, and to sit there and criticize is easy.
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I doubt if an isolationist policy is what you want. Historically the US loses out more during it pro-isolationist periods. Sorry, I can't point you to references, but I do remember reading about this some years ago. Stephen Kellett
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The Chinese "government" needs to take account of Chinese public opinion, and believe me, it's very anti-American (and that's without the government stirring things up - although they have in the past). I believe that's why they are taking such an unusual line. Ever since the stupid bombing of the Chinese embassy, the Chinese public have on the whole been anti-American (although it was the government that made them this way initially). Cheers, Peter
I am a Chinese, had been living in US for 9 years. US is "No 1" in the world, no body has any problem with that. But it does not mean, from "No 2" to "No. 180", those countries are not INDEPENDENT country. They should not respect other country in that way! If you belive in God, really, you should treat all people nice: in or outside your Church, same or different skin colors, ... at least they are not "Spying" on you! Chinese goverment is doing the right thing. In case, the Tawain issue has to utilize army, and US happen to be on the other side, should Chinese fight? Check out your history book about Korea war, Vint Nam.... Sooner or later. Chinese should welcome a "spy airplane", in a more friendly way? Give me a break! How is US culture, to handle friends like that? :confused: Stan He
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I'm an American who has spent a great deal of time overseas for work...at the moment, however, I'm in the US and was curious how people outside the US view the brewing storm over the American "spy" plane which is currently in China. I spoke to a friend last night who is a atmospheric scientist, and his data collection aircraft is basically the same airplane as the one which is now in China. He says that the plane is old, slow, and big....that he would be very surprised if it could hit a fighter unless the fighter pilot was asleep. Should the US aplogize? Should the US cut off trade relations? Should the crew be held in China? Should the plane be returned to the US?
I am a Chinese, had been living in US for 9 years. US is "No 1" in the world, no body has any problem with that. But it does not mean, from "No 2" to "No. 180", those countries are not INDEPENDENT country. They should not respect other country in that way! If you belive in God, really, you should treat all people nice: in or outside your Church, same or different skin colors, ... at least they are not "Spying" on you! Chinese goverment is doing the right thing. In case, in the future, the Tawain issue has to utilize Chinese army, and US happens to be on the other side, should Chinese fight? Will they? Check out your history book about Korea war and Viet Nam.... Chinese should welcome a "spy airplane", in a more friendly way? Give me a break! How is US culture, to handle "friends" like that? ...please do not use "double standard" whenever needed, and BS with me! The "intruder crew" should be happy, they are still alive! A Chinese Man
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It must be frustrating for the American gov't not getting there way :eek: I think China has proved that they will run there own policies and not have any external countries (us) dictate anything.
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If the US Gov't promised not to supply arms to Taiwan, I bet the 24 Americans and the plane would be returned with a bow on top! China's gov't doesn't really care who bumped who, all they are concerned about is the American involvement w/ Taiwan.
Then I would say they are hostages who have been kidnapped -- meet the kidnappers demands and you might get the hostage back....I seem to remember that England gave Germany Chekoslovakia (sp?) to prevent a war....it didn't work though...peace can't be made part of a hostage negotiation.
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I am a Chinese, had been living in US for 9 years. US is "No 1" in the world, no body has any problem with that. But it does not mean, from "No 2" to "No. 180", those countries are not INDEPENDENT country. They should not respect other country in that way! If you belive in God, really, you should treat all people nice: in or outside your Church, same or different skin colors, ... at least they are not "Spying" on you! Chinese goverment is doing the right thing. In case, the Tawain issue has to utilize army, and US happen to be on the other side, should Chinese fight? Check out your history book about Korea war, Vint Nam.... Sooner or later. Chinese should welcome a "spy airplane", in a more friendly way? Give me a break! How is US culture, to handle friends like that? :confused: Stan He
Every major countries spies on other countries. China spies on the US, remember all those secrets that found their way 'somehow' into chinese hands from the nuclear testing labratory? The plane was in international waters. We constantly have russian trollers hanging off our coasts listening to our airwaves with spy equipment. We don't sink them for it. The chinese probably have spy bases inside the US and are sending encrypted communication over the internet back to china. England spies on the US, the US spies on England. it's called "intelligence" because we don't want to be taken by surprise. Most foreign embassies are nothing but spy fronts. It's standard everyday procedure in this world. If you don't do it, you will be at a disadvantage.
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Valid point , but why not extend the argument . How about a film about how a Brit perfected the light bulb , or even how we decided not to win the American War of Independance . The result would be uproar , and justifiably so , because it would be viewed as an attempt to rewrite history. This is not a trivial point , look at the current arguments between Japan and South Korea about the content of school text books. Japan is claiming to have liberated large parts of Asia in the 30's and 40's . A point that has some justification if you view the Dutch, French and British Colonists as "Anglo-Saxon invaders" . Its just that the Koreans feel they were not liberated from anybody , simply subjugated to Imperial Japan .(There is a minor point that the Anglo-Saxon tag is not strictly accurate either). When we still had the Soviet Union , History was continually being rewritten there , even to the extent that their greatest Generals were often sidelined and all credit given to the political masters. Rewriting history for commercial reasons is not a harmless thing to do , these untruths can be propagated for a long time . Asprin was invented by a German working for Bayer , he was a Jew , so the credit went to his understudy a Gentile . See , when you start the mis information , where do you stop ? Regards Andrew Torrance
Fine do that. I'll go see the movies as you describe, so would most of my friends. Sure, there will be some outcry, but most of us will take it for what it is. Entertainment. Movies do not teach, nor should they be taken as fact. They entertain. That's it. They're fiction except when expressly represented as accurate reenactment. Movies intended for entertainment are not textbooks, nor are they educational films. You can't use arguments about such things to support you in this case. I welcome enteratainment from other countries that wish to provide an entertaining story, whether its fact or not. You forget, in this country we embrace free speech, even if we don't agree with it. Mein Kampf is not illegal here, like it is in Germany. Do not mistake a movie studio's interesting work of fiction as some plot by a government to rewrite history.