Why I don't use python

[Daniel Pfeffer]

theoldfool wrote:

the washed like to pile on the unwashed.

I apologize for my misunderstanding.

Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -- 6079 Smith W.

[megaadam]

I think you seem a bit impatient with Python. I find it useful for small quick things. For example string processing or web-scraping. And I do not give a toss whether they call it "object-oriented" or not. Lets call it stuff-oriented or whatevva. However, on the OO topic... We who are firmly rooted in C++ have a rather strict definition of OO. There are other ways of looking at the term. I warmly recommend this article on the history of OOP (or "OOP"!). The grandfather of the term, Alan Kay, has said among other things: “I made up the term ‘object-oriented’, and I can tell you I didn’t have C++ in mind.” “I’m sorry that I long ago coined the term “objects” for this topic because it gets many people to focus on the lesser idea. The big idea is messaging.” https://medium.com/javascript-scene/the-forgotten-history-of-oop[^]

"If we don't change direction, we'll end up where we're going"

[honey the codewitch]

I'm happy with C#'s conception of objects, and even Java's What I don't like is ersatz objects that are effectively just hashtables keyed by the name of the member. That sort of construct doesn't fulfill all kinds of object oriented necessities like polymorphism - not that you can't MAKE that work in a language like that, it's just not pretty. It strikes me as Broken As Designed.

Check out my IoT graphics library here: https://honeythecodewitch.com/gfx And my IoT UI/User Experience library here: https://honeythecodewitch.com/uix

[megaadam]

I agree 100% that Python is not elegant from a pure CS point of view. But it is much more concise than C++ and cousins. You have to scroll less (!). We have discussed the benefit of non-scrolling (vs our old brains) in C-code before. And it does have amazing libraries. I just does the job for small programs. Beyond a few thousand lines, it becomes a nightmare to maintain, mostly due to its total lack of type-safety. :cool:

"If we don't change direction, we'll end up where we're going"

[honey the codewitch]

I've discovered a whole new reason to love C# and that is source generators. But also, I've now gotten to the point where my C# CLI apps are as short and succinct as anything similar in python, through the magic of metadata and some code I wrote. Complete with using screens, defaults, etc. I wrote something to parse a C header file and extract relevant information. From conception to testing to delivery in two hours, about a page and a half of C# code. Frankly, I agree with Mr. Pfeifer below. I don't need Python, I've got solid tools as it is. And no goddammned signficant whitespace!** ** funny thing about that. I actually use minimization in my .NET projects[^] I do it as part of an alternative to static linking which isn't really available with C#. To save space (sometimes a meg of whitespace!), and to deliberately obscure these files and prevent me from modifying them - rather than modifying the source that they are generated from. I've gotten out of sync before. This keeps me honest. Python can't do that. In fact, python makes code generation itself a royal pain because of the pigheaded insistence of imposing indents on you.

Check out my IoT graphics library here: https://honeythecodewitch.com/gfx And my IoT UI/User Experience library here: https://honeythecodewitch.com/uix

[megaadam]

Nice project! It is not within my aforementioned category of Python-suitable challenges ["small quick things"]. Peace.

"If we don't change direction, we'll end up where we're going"

[honey the codewitch]

It's not but for those I have my Program.Base code which makes writing say, a CLI app to wordwrap input files into an output file this easy:

using System;
using System.Collections.Generic;
using System.IO;
internal partial class Program
{
[CmdArg(Ordinal = 0)] // the description and itemname are filled
static List Inputs = new List() { Console.In };
[CmdArg(Name = "output")] // the description and itemname are filled
static TextWriter Output = Console.Out;
[CmdArg(Name = "width", Description = "The width to wrap. Defaults based on console window size", ItemName = "columns")]
static int Width = (int)Math.Floor((double)Console.WindowWidth / 1.5);
[CmdArg(Name = "ifstale", Description = "Skip if the input file is older than the output file")]
static bool IfStale = false;
static void Run()
{
if (!IfStale || IsStale(Inputs, Output))
{
foreach (var input in Inputs)
{
// do this because stdin requires it
string line;
while((line = input.ReadLine()) != null)
{
Output.WriteLine(WordWrap(line, Width));
}
}
} else
{
Console.Error.WriteLine("Skipped execution because the inputs did not change");
}
}
}

That parses arguments, presents a using screen, all of that mess. This is how i do "quick things."

Check out my IoT graphics library here: https://honeythecodewitch.com/gfx And my IoT UI/User Experience library here: https://honeythecodewitch.com/uix

[StarNamer work]

Because the author of the Open Source program I want to modify chose to write it in Python!

[jochance]

Was talking with a friend who leans more network engineer than programmer. They had some programming courses in college. I'm hoping I convinced them that C#/Powershell are far more useful things to focus on than Python unless they want to shift gears and be a data scientist. They asked if I thought Python as a first language was a hindrance. I think most absolutely so.

[honey the codewitch]

I agree that it is, since it's mostly just glue, and does so much for you, or via external libraries that too much is black boxed. Sure you can resize an image, but do you know what it's actually doing? I used to say C# was the way to go. Now, after watching people who aren't programmers pick and up and begin to program with something, I'm suggesting people go buy an ESP32, and start coding on that with Arduino. It will teach you enough C++ to be dangerous, and honestly? They're fun enough to keep you motivated even with the struggles. It won't teach you best practices, but I've seen more non-coder engineers go this route and be successful than i can count.

Check out my IoT graphics library here: https://honeythecodewitch.com/gfx And my IoT UI/User Experience library here: https://honeythecodewitch.com/uix

[englebart]

I have very little experience with python, but just enough to ask? Did you declare this inside the scope of an object? Did you indent the def? It looks like it does not know where to bind the function to be an attribute of a class?

[honey the codewitch]

It was someone else's code I was trying to help them with and honestly I don't remember now. The point of my post was the error message is cryptic to the point of ridiculous because they've decided on adopting their own lexicon for describing programming constructs.

Check out my IoT graphics library here: https://honeythecodewitch.com/gfx And my IoT UI/User Experience library here: https://honeythecodewitch.com/uix

[0x01AA]

Maybe not better, but with Python much more easier if I think about all that matrix/vector operations...

[jochance]

I seriously want to tell new people to find whatever copy of VB they can. It's not at all like the basics (heh) don't carry. WYSIWYG is also just a powerful learning tool and we're not talking production web systems of messy genned code. Powershell/C# for the buddy is mostly about that being really useful for network admin types. Most everything modern, no matter what it is, there's just too much involved and it looks like such a big cookie you can't even figure where the first bite should be. As much as the lowered bar got a bad rap (see Unity in game dev today) it was precisely because the lowering of that bar was a great and massive enabler to bring people into the fold. If you want 'em to become part of the herd they need to at least begin to identify fields of sheep.

[jochance]

Let's couple that newspeak with having invisible characters matter! /s

[honey the codewitch]

Yeah, but I've already ranted about that in the past :)

Check out my IoT graphics library here: https://honeythecodewitch.com/gfx And my IoT UI/User Experience library here: https://honeythecodewitch.com/uix

[honey the codewitch]

I wouldn't get people started with VB6. C# is the way to go for new development, and is not that difficult to pick up as languages go. It's just that it can do a lot so you need a roadmap or a mentor so you don't get lost in all the functionality. Actually doing stuff with it is easy. The difference between C# and VB6, syntax aside, is with VB6 you had to beg borrow and steal your way through unmanaged APIs to do anything "off book" that VB6 wasn't designed for. There's a whole website devoted to this, for better or worse: https://vbaccelerator.com[^] With C#, it's all there already. But that just means there's a lot of stuff too. The trick to getting started is knowing where to start.

Check out my IoT graphics library here: https://honeythecodewitch.com/gfx And my IoT UI/User Experience library here: https://honeythecodewitch.com/uix

[jochance]

I think what I like is getting at things aside console apps that you can easily see. It's small but it's also motivating/inspiring where Console.Writeline is maybe more 'meh, ok'. The stuff with event wire up to controls and such... that stuff really plays into a bunch of more modern things. > The trick to getting started is knowing where to start. That's the thing... indulging a bit of time travel obliterates so many starting points.

[Daniel Pfeffer]

Possibly, if my work involved matrix/vector operations. Which it doesn't.

Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows. -- 6079 Smith W.