Anti-VB
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Ed.Poore wrote:
Neither of the two main IT / Computing teachers had even heard of .NET before I said I was going to use if for my project!
At least (I hope) you didn't have to (try to) explain to your teachers how oop works ;P
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bakerfishsticks wrote:
Sorry but i would never outsource a project i needed asap.
It isn't my project. And to be honest, i don't much care if it gets done or not - the ones that'll suffer are the ones that hired the consultants. But i said i'd write a UI for it, and it bugs me that i took the time to do that straight away, when it's looking like it won't be used for another month or so.
bakerfishsticks wrote:
I thought this vb bashing was on versions 6 and under.
VB6 definitely suffers from a much worse development UI. But it's the programmers who gravitate towards them that bug me most, not the languages themselves.
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Shog9 wrote:
VB6 definitely suffers from a much worse development UI. But it's the programmers who gravitate towards them that bug me most, not the languages themselves.
Actually i agree with you!! I am not a VB programmer just trying to make the point that it's a tool and a valid tool to use. I use it most with office VBA stuff, but all of my application work is in JAVA/C#. Yes most progammers that use VB should not be programming. The argument is why we bash on VB as a language, personally i have nothing against VB.
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Shog9 wrote:
I also have no problem with people who don't bathe
What!? Swim around in your own dirt!! :wtf: ColinMackay.net "Man who stand on hill with mouth open will wait long time for roast duck to drop in." -- Confucius "If a man empties his purse into his head, no man can take it away from him, for an investment in knowledge pays the best interest." -- Joseph E. O'Donnell
Hey, maybe they suffer from really bad eczema or something. Who am i to judge?
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Who cares? Get back to work and write some friggin code in whatever language floats your boat. But what I really mean is write some code in whatever language pays your bills. Because languages don't matter paying bills and enjoying your lifestyle are why we do what we do. The rest of this is just wanna-be smack from smackless wanna-be's. Geez enough...:|
I only read CP for the articles. Code-frog System Architects, Inc.
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bakerfishsticks wrote:
Think about it if all businesses used c++ apps would never be on time.
Are VB apps statistically more likely to "be on time"? I would seriously doubt it. The primary reason for an app being available on time or not is politics, not the language the developers are using. ColinMackay.net "Man who stand on hill with mouth open will wait long time for roast duck to drop in." -- Confucius "If a man empties his purse into his head, no man can take it away from him, for an investment in knowledge pays the best interest." -- Joseph E. O'Donnell
Colin Angus Mackay wrote:
Are VB apps statistically more likely to "be on time"? I would seriously doubt it.
Back when MFC and VB6 were my weapons of choice, its my experience that I was much faster at putting together "simple window apps" with VB6. Hell, one time I created and released a software product with VB6 of excellent quality in 2 weeks. It was a big success, development and business wise. So, I think it depends on the kind of app you're creating. For a time, VB was the only RAD tool Microsoft had and it really was fast and easy to create simple windows apps with it. After all, that is what it was designed to do. As they say, the right tool for the right job.
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Xoy wrote:
Especially if its C# vs VB... Considering there isn't that much different between them I mean, fine and all if you are more comfortable with the cish syntax, but whats wrong with vb
As some have pointed out this is more than a syntax issue. As you have noticed a lot of people have actually programmed in VB before, or had to fix VB, or been asked to stretch it to its limits. When you get down to the nitty gritty, all programming languages are closely related. They all have their syntax, they all have their supporting libraries (that mostly grew out of programmers using the language, some adopted officially later, others as unofficial or alternate standards, and others just to help you get a job done). So how does characterize Snobol, Prolog, Basic, C, C++, Ada, C#, D, Fortran, Pascal, etc.? 1) As pointed out compiler error/warning level support, how well can the compiler help you detect errors a) Is the language set up such that with too many assumptions that you will always compile even when the code is wrong b) Is the language set up such that the compiler just tells you "error line 110" and leaves you pondering what you typed 2) Debugging, profiling, and various other performance monitoring and data trace capability. a) when you have to debug a subtle error, how well will the environment help you do so? b) are the tools to support the language there? 3) User base support, and infrastructure support a) this is actually related to the above, but I bring it up to cover all the little things you never think of. There are hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, they exist, they run, and run clean. But you can't actually drive them out of california because there is no place to fuel them up again! b) everything lives and dies by infrastructure support, from IDEs, libraries, Case tools and design aids with rapid prototyping and getting that prototype to code. Even C++ built itself off the infrastructure of C, Basic created it's own infrastructure in Visual Basic, but that is as far as it went. C# borrowed from both C and VB infrastructure, but also built up its own to surpass VB. Compiler support in C# and test aid support as near as I can tell are superior to VB. My suggestion to anyone is run out and learn a second computer language. I don't care if you are programming in C# or C++, or even still C or VB, even if you are scouring the internet for Ada support, learn a second language. It gives you alternate logic concepts, allows you
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
Basic created it's own infrastructure in Visual Basic
Thats one thing I like about .net :) The errors & warnings typically take you to the right location of the error rather than some random error in some random file ;P
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
- As pointed out compiler error/warning level support, how well can the compiler help you detect errors
I'd say thats more a compiler issue than language ;)
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
a) when you have to debug a subtle error, how well will the environment help you do so?
IDE issue... even if vb has traditionally had a good ide for debugging :)
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
C# borrowed from both C and VB infrastructure, but also built up its own to surpass VB.
I wouldn't say that C#'s infrastructure was built to surpass vb... seems to me that microsoft is trying to keep the two fairly equivalent.
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
b) Is the language set up such that the compiler just tells you "error line 110" and leaves you pondering what you typed
Basic started long before vb... before c++ even I think... dun remember for sure. Course, vb made a lot of changes... it still had something to build off of. vb.net again made changes... and again had something to build off of.
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
My suggestion to anyone is run out and learn a second computer language. I don't care if you are programming in C# or C++, or even still C or VB, even if you are scouring the internet for Ada support, learn a second language. It gives you alternate logic concepts, allows you to program your code by design strategies rather than just "syntactically and functionally correct." Programming is more than just the language you are writing in, and the best way to break out of that in any language is to learn a second one.
Indeed. Learning more than one language is good :D Learn enough of them and they all seem the same ;P Well... close enough to it ;P I've picked up several of my preferences in programming from different languages :)
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
Lisp is strange
I thought lisp was kind of interesting... a slightly di
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Ed.Poore wrote:
sneak a tape-recorder in to tape it which technically I shouldn't be doing as it's against school rules
Where I work it is technically against the rules to download music to your PC. The guy whose job it is to enforce those rules helpfully suggested that over the weekend I fire up the VPN from home then upload the music instead. So, if the rules say no tape recorders then go for something else. Pocket PCs tend to have a microphone built in. Some MP3 players have a microphone and record function. ColinMackay.net "Man who stand on hill with mouth open will wait long time for roast duck to drop in." -- Confucius "If a man empties his purse into his head, no man can take it away from him, for an investment in knowledge pays the best interest." -- Joseph E. O'Donnell
From what I can remember about school rules the only electronic equipments allowed is calculators & mobile phones (which should be switched off upon entering school grounds). But hey I take my laptop in almost everyday because atleast I can have full admin priviledges on that or Linux without having to spend the first 10 minutes of the lesson waiting for their Windows system to log on. I mean come on they had some ex-student working with me to cut down log-on time then they brought in another ex-student who's now being employed to tighten down on kids installing software & browsing internet, back to the 10 min log on times. I've compiled Gentoo quicker! Ed
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turn option stict and explicit on always. We require it in our department. Then code Dim a as integer = 10 Dim b as string = "ABC" Console.WriteLine(a.ToString()) Console.WriteLine(b) If you turn On option strict and explicit vb.net is more strict then C#! "People who never make mistakes, never do anything." My Blog
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Yet I am often critisized for trying to do the job for which I've been deposited on this planet. :( ------- sig starts "I've heard some drivers saying, 'We're going too fast here...'. If you're not here to race, go the hell home - don't come here and grumble about going too fast. Why don't you tie a kerosene rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
Only by those with no sense of ha-ha.
"You're obviously a superstar." - Christian Graus about me - 12 Feb '03 "Obviously ??? You're definitely a superstar!!!" - mYkel - 21 Jun '04 "There's not enough blatant self-congratulatory backslapping in the world today..." - HumblePie - 21 Jun '05 Within you lies the power for good - Use it!
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Why are so many people outspokenly anti-vb? I think its fine to prefer one language over others, perhaps due to what you are most comfortable with, syntax preference, etc... but why are so many people also anti-vb? Especially if its C# vs VB... Considering there isn't that much different between them :confused: I mean, fine and all if you are more comfortable with the cish syntax, but whats wrong with vb :confused: (note i'm referring to the language and not the people who use it ;P)
Xoy wrote:
Why are so many people outspokenly anti-vb?
I think it's partly elitism. Some developers do it to make themselves feel superior to others. Especially those that claim one programing language is more "real" than others. Others feel that the language has wronged them in some way and refuse to go back to it ever again. Ignore the emotional drivel. What it really comes down to is choosing the right tool for the right job. So, don't label yourself as a C# programmer or a VB programmer or a Java programmer. You're just limiting yourself. Be a Software Developer and recognize that different languages have their own advantages and disadvantages.
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espeir wrote:
VB is for losers!!!
It's just a wanna-be programming language. Real programmers program C++. PC
A good engineer knows ALWAYS what language to use for each project. He chooses between C/C++, C++.NET, C#, VB, VB.NET, Java and even Assembler when needed. Stop this childish behaviors. :suss: ___________________________________ Tozzi is right: Gaia is getting rid of us. My Blog [ITA]
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Why are so many people outspokenly anti-vb? I think its fine to prefer one language over others, perhaps due to what you are most comfortable with, syntax preference, etc... but why are so many people also anti-vb? Especially if its C# vs VB... Considering there isn't that much different between them :confused: I mean, fine and all if you are more comfortable with the cish syntax, but whats wrong with vb :confused: (note i'm referring to the language and not the people who use it ;P)
As a I/S professional who has been working in the industry for over 20 years, I have seen good and bad code in a variety of languages. Yes, all versions of BASIC let the programmer get away with a lot of crap, but, that has more to do with the programmer than the language. VB is a tool: neither good nor bad. There are many C, C++, C# programmers that believe obfuscated job is just wonderful! Well written code can, and should, exist in all languages. Rather than sewing dissension, work toward educating the masses about better techniques. Tim
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you must be a very lonely man.
If I have the choice between "lonely" and "dealing with bozos", I'll choose "lonely" every freakin time. ------- sig starts "I've heard some drivers saying, 'We're going too fast here...'. If you're not here to race, go the hell home - don't come here and grumble about going too fast. Why don't you tie a kerosene rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
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Only because he is lashing out. Just an observation. Personally i dont care either!!
You must be new to the forums - yep only 7 messages in a year and a half. For that reason, I will simply say that this is most certainlly NOT "lashing out". If you want to see "lashing out", go to the Soapbox Forum. And I'll give you just one heads up - generally, you should maintain a considerable sense of humor when dealing with me, or you'll be trampled while everyone else vacates the room to give me more space to work. Now that the formalities are over, can you take a little friendly ribbing about VB, or not? (And Gary said it best, what makes you think I give a rat's ass?) ------- sig starts "I've heard some drivers saying, 'We're going too fast here...'. If you're not here to race, go the hell home - don't come here and grumble about going too fast. Why don't you tie a kerosene rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
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Perhaps because of "option explicit on/off" and "option strict on/off" and lack of compile time warnings (e.g. not all code paths return value) .. etc. - Malhar
So? Options aren't required and compile time warnings get in the way (for me). In VB .Net there are compile time warnings. __________________________________________ Let's push Satan
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As a I/S professional who has been working in the industry for over 20 years, I have seen good and bad code in a variety of languages. Yes, all versions of BASIC let the programmer get away with a lot of crap, but, that has more to do with the programmer than the language. VB is a tool: neither good nor bad. There are many C, C++, C# programmers that believe obfuscated job is just wonderful! Well written code can, and should, exist in all languages. Rather than sewing dissension, work toward educating the masses about better techniques. Tim
C'mon, we're having a good time, and you come along and start spewing common sense! What the hell is that all about? :) ------- sig starts "I've heard some drivers saying, 'We're going too fast here...'. If you're not here to race, go the hell home - don't come here and grumble about going too fast. Why don't you tie a kerosene rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt "...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001
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Xoy wrote:
Why are so many people outspokenly anti-vb?
Because at one point of our career, we had to "fix" some VB code written yb a moron. That's the great feature of VB: coding morons get their application to work (note that someone may be a moron coder, but a genius foobarker, which is why sometimes it makes sense to let a moron coder write apps in VB)
Xoy wrote:
Considering there isn't that much different between them
There's "not much difference" between human and monkey DNA, either...
Some of us walk the memory lane, others plummet into a rabbit hole
Tree in C# || Fold With Us! || sighistHave you even looked at VB? class BlahBlahBlah { sub New() { object Thingy = new Object; }; }; Public Class BlahBlahBlah Public Sub New() Dim Thingy As New Object End Sub End Class The main difference is case. In VB Thingy = Thingy, thingy, tHINGY, etc. In C Thingy = Thingy. __________________________________________ Let's push Satan
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A good engineer knows ALWAYS what language to use for each project. He chooses between C/C++, C++.NET, C#, VB, VB.NET, Java and even Assembler when needed. Stop this childish behaviors. :suss: ___________________________________ Tozzi is right: Gaia is getting rid of us. My Blog [ITA]
Dario Solera wrote:
He chooses between C/C++, C++.NET, C#, VB, VB.NET, Java and even Assembler when needed.
Right you are. It really should depend on the project requirements, time frame to complete the project, skillsets within the development team, etc. Sure with the assembly language bit, it may be useful when someone needs to get down in the dirty with the processor level of work, but I wouldn't use it to develop a full-blown application. If the development group develops quality code in VB, let them develop in VB when permitted.
Dario Solera wrote:
Stop this childish behaviors.
Yes. We are all entitled to our opinion of what languages we like and dislike, but we may not have much say if the big bosses demand a project is coded in one language or another. PC
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So? Options aren't required and compile time warnings get in the way (for me). In VB .Net there are compile time warnings. __________________________________________ Let's push Satan
What I was trying to convery is that the VB allows users to turn off such explicit declaration of variables, explicit casting of expressions (when required). Furthermore, VB has such concept of "Modules" which allows users to create static methods. The legacy VB was not OO by nature, so those users to are now evolving to VB.net continue to write the same type of non-OO code without taking advantage of the new features. One of the newly introduced feature of VB.net 2k5 is the "My" keyword which allows programming shortcuts, thus not forcing the user to learn more about the encapsulating classes. Because VB makes it easier for users to write code, it on the otherhand does not require them to think profoundly and structured-ly about the code. Thus because VB allows such language exploitations, it promotes bad programming practices which come back and haunt you (or whoever is dealing with the mess) later. I'm not stereotyping that ALL VB developers are not quality programmers. My opinions reflect my observations of the code I have reviewed in the past. I'm not trying to flame another debate of VB vs C#, I just think a language has a strenght as long as the it forces you to learn proper programming techniques WITHOUT exposing too many keywords. I'd say the strengh of the language should be measured by the reserved keywords! - Malhar
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Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
Basic created it's own infrastructure in Visual Basic
Thats one thing I like about .net :) The errors & warnings typically take you to the right location of the error rather than some random error in some random file ;P
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
- As pointed out compiler error/warning level support, how well can the compiler help you detect errors
I'd say thats more a compiler issue than language ;)
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
a) when you have to debug a subtle error, how well will the environment help you do so?
IDE issue... even if vb has traditionally had a good ide for debugging :)
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
C# borrowed from both C and VB infrastructure, but also built up its own to surpass VB.
I wouldn't say that C#'s infrastructure was built to surpass vb... seems to me that microsoft is trying to keep the two fairly equivalent.
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
b) Is the language set up such that the compiler just tells you "error line 110" and leaves you pondering what you typed
Basic started long before vb... before c++ even I think... dun remember for sure. Course, vb made a lot of changes... it still had something to build off of. vb.net again made changes... and again had something to build off of.
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
My suggestion to anyone is run out and learn a second computer language. I don't care if you are programming in C# or C++, or even still C or VB, even if you are scouring the internet for Ada support, learn a second language. It gives you alternate logic concepts, allows you to program your code by design strategies rather than just "syntactically and functionally correct." Programming is more than just the language you are writing in, and the best way to break out of that in any language is to learn a second one.
Indeed. Learning more than one language is good :D Learn enough of them and they all seem the same ;P Well... close enough to it ;P I've picked up several of my preferences in programming from different languages :)
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
Lisp is strange
I thought lisp was kind of interesting... a slightly di
Xoy wrote:
I wouldn't say one language is necessarily superior to another... it depends on what the program is supposed to do.
Theoretically RPG I/II/III/IV etc. were supposed to build columnar reports easily. A report designer add-on to almost any modern language can produce it better. :) so we are still stuck that RPG is a lousy language. :laugh: But they integrate well with Cobol. :suss: _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
