Anti-VB
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Well, I for one, can you that this place would be supremely boring without people like you. Tom Archer (blog) Program Manager MSDN Online (Windows Vista and Visual C++) MICROSOFT
I agree completely, whatever it is you meant to say.;P Watch the mail... a package should be along shortly. I tossed in TASM and TD, to boot, and if I find the manuals they'll be along shortly. Have fun!:-D "...a photo album is like Life, but flat and stuck to pages." - Shog9
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Why are so many people outspokenly anti-vb? I think its fine to prefer one language over others, perhaps due to what you are most comfortable with, syntax preference, etc... but why are so many people also anti-vb? Especially if its C# vs VB... Considering there isn't that much different between them :confused: I mean, fine and all if you are more comfortable with the cish syntax, but whats wrong with vb :confused: (note i'm referring to the language and not the people who use it ;P)
Beginners All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code (BASIC) was invented by two mathematicians at Dartmouth in 1963 as a teaching tool, not a programming language. It was never intended to be a real language, but served only to instruct raw beginners in the rudimentary functions necessary to make a computer do something more useful than warm the lab. It was simplified by MS by making it Visual, so that even greener tyros, not to mention the occasional manager, could figure it out well enough to make pretty dialog boxes. This is much like making rifles automatic, so that you don't need to worry about hiring peasants for your army who are bright enough to remember to work the bolts after each shot. "...a photo album is like Life, but flat and stuck to pages." - Shog9
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Beginners All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code (BASIC) was invented by two mathematicians at Dartmouth in 1963 as a teaching tool, not a programming language. It was never intended to be a real language, but served only to instruct raw beginners in the rudimentary functions necessary to make a computer do something more useful than warm the lab. It was simplified by MS by making it Visual, so that even greener tyros, not to mention the occasional manager, could figure it out well enough to make pretty dialog boxes. This is much like making rifles automatic, so that you don't need to worry about hiring peasants for your army who are bright enough to remember to work the bolts after each shot. "...a photo album is like Life, but flat and stuck to pages." - Shog9
Wikipedia: BASIC (Beginner's All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code[1]) is a family of high-level programming languages. Originally invented in 1964 by John George Kemeny and Thomas Eugene Kurtz at Dartmouth College, it was designed to allow students not in science fields to use computers. At the time all computer use required writing custom software, which was something only scientists and mathematicians tended to do. It became widespread on home microcomputers in the 1980s, and remains popular to this day in a handful of heavily evolved dialects.
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Wikipedia: BASIC (Beginner's All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code[1]) is a family of high-level programming languages. Originally invented in 1964 by John George Kemeny and Thomas Eugene Kurtz at Dartmouth College, it was designed to allow students not in science fields to use computers. At the time all computer use required writing custom software, which was something only scientists and mathematicians tended to do. It became widespread on home microcomputers in the 1980s, and remains popular to this day in a handful of heavily evolved dialects.
10 DATA "I WILL NOT" 20 DATA "PROMOTE PROGRAMMING" 30 DATA "IN NON-LANGUAGES." 100 DIM A$[10], B$[19], C$[17] 110 DIM I 200 READ A$ 210 READ B$ 220 READ C$ 500 FOR I = 1 TO 100 510 LPRINT A$ + CHR(20) + B$ + CHR(20) + C$ 520 LPRINT CHR(09), CHR(10) 530 NEXT I 540 GOTO 999 600 REM YOUR HOMEWORK FOR TONIGHT 999 END >RUN Are you gonna believe Wikipedia, or someone who was there?;P Don't mind me - just stirring the pot...;) "...a photo album is like Life, but flat and stuck to pages." - Shog9
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Just proving your point. :)
:click: ahhhh! :rolleyes:
Some of us walk the memory lane, others plummet into a rabbit hole
Tree in C# || Fold With Us! || sighist -
:click: ahhhh! :rolleyes:
Some of us walk the memory lane, others plummet into a rabbit hole
Tree in C# || Fold With Us! || sighistEnlightenment - something one never would achieve by programming VB. :-D
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Look VB is just a tool same as C++ and has its advantages and disadvantages. From a business stand point VB is great, you can get an app out very quickly without worring about about the little things. I think the people that complain about VB are the JAVA/C#/C++ coders because they think using these language makes them an engineer!! HA, C# which i code in and Java are 4gl languages and C++ is nothing more then a 3gl language and most of us only code for business software which really does not require c++ at all. Think about it if all businesses used c++ apps would never be on time. Thank god for java and .net and yes vb. If you want to feel like an engineer use assembly for microprocesser programming, create your own OS. But otherwiese just accept VB is a tool some people can use well and some just hack it up which is why we are here.
bakerfishsticks wrote:
Think about it if all businesses used c++ apps would never be on time
Exactley why is C++ dificult to learn/use/develop applications in timely fashion? I've been using C++ for development of business solutions for the past 15 years or so, in my experience project overruns have always been caused by management politics, not late delivery by development teams. Software development is software development, just as the "clunkiness" of VB promotes bad development practices, the terseness of C++ promotes "code obfuscation" the likes of which can give even seasoned C++'ers the hairy gibbers :omg:, which is why most C++ developers try and write "sane" structured code. The fact is that VB is easy to understand and allows "non-programmers" to assemble relativly functional programs, in just the same way that non IT people would proudly declare that they programmed their "Access" system to do this that or the other. Phil Harding.
myBlog [^] | mySite [^] -
I agree completely, whatever it is you meant to say.;P Watch the mail... a package should be along shortly. I tossed in TASM and TD, to boot, and if I find the manuals they'll be along shortly. Have fun!:-D "...a photo album is like Life, but flat and stuck to pages." - Shog9
Thanks!!! :beer: :beer: :beer: Tom Archer (blog) Program Manager MSDN Online (Windows Vista and Visual C++) MICROSOFT
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10 DATA "I WILL NOT" 20 DATA "PROMOTE PROGRAMMING" 30 DATA "IN NON-LANGUAGES." 100 DIM A$[10], B$[19], C$[17] 110 DIM I 200 READ A$ 210 READ B$ 220 READ C$ 500 FOR I = 1 TO 100 510 LPRINT A$ + CHR(20) + B$ + CHR(20) + C$ 520 LPRINT CHR(09), CHR(10) 530 NEXT I 540 GOTO 999 600 REM YOUR HOMEWORK FOR TONIGHT 999 END >RUN Are you gonna believe Wikipedia, or someone who was there?;P Don't mind me - just stirring the pot...;) "...a photo album is like Life, but flat and stuck to pages." - Shog9
Roger Wright wrote:
10 DATA "I WILL NOT" 20 DATA "PROMOTE PROGRAMMING" 30 DATA "IN NON-LANGUAGES." 100 DIM A$[10], B$[19], C$[17] 110 DIM I 200 READ A$ 210 READ B$ 220 READ C$ 500 FOR I = 1 TO 100 510 LPRINT A$ + CHR(20) + B$ + CHR(20) + C$ 520 LPRINT CHR(09), CHR(10) 530 NEXT I 540 GOTO 999 600 REM YOUR HOMEWORK FOR TONIGHT 999 END >RUN
:| This discussion is on vb... thats umm really old basic... :suss: quickbasic? I've programmed in dos... and basic can be/was quite a bit nicer than that ;P Stuff changes with time... new ideas, new solutions... basic has come a long way from then. If used properly, it can be a great tool... use the screwdriver to screw in the screws and the hammer to hammer in nails, not the other way around :P
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Enlightenment - something one never would achieve by programming VB. :-D
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What I was trying to convery is that the VB allows users to turn off such explicit declaration of variables, explicit casting of expressions (when required). Furthermore, VB has such concept of "Modules" which allows users to create static methods. The legacy VB was not OO by nature, so those users to are now evolving to VB.net continue to write the same type of non-OO code without taking advantage of the new features. One of the newly introduced feature of VB.net 2k5 is the "My" keyword which allows programming shortcuts, thus not forcing the user to learn more about the encapsulating classes. Because VB makes it easier for users to write code, it on the otherhand does not require them to think profoundly and structured-ly about the code. Thus because VB allows such language exploitations, it promotes bad programming practices which come back and haunt you (or whoever is dealing with the mess) later. I'm not stereotyping that ALL VB developers are not quality programmers. My opinions reflect my observations of the code I have reviewed in the past. I'm not trying to flame another debate of VB vs C#, I just think a language has a strenght as long as the it forces you to learn proper programming techniques WITHOUT exposing too many keywords. I'd say the strengh of the language should be measured by the reserved keywords! - Malhar
malharone wrote:
Furthermore, VB has such concept of "Modules" which allows users to create static methods.
There are cases in which modules are perfectly fine... quite a few functions in .net are available in modules ;) C++ is a hybrid language too... I doubt you'd make the same comments about it?
malharone wrote:
Thus because VB allows such language exploitations, it promotes bad programming practices which come back and haunt you (or whoever is dealing with the mess) later.
VB isn't the only language that has that issue... they all do :suss: like
int count = 0; for (int i=1; i<10; i+1) count + 1;perfectly compilable C++ code... but does absolutely nothing... besides an infinite loop :suss: orfoo[foo[bar++ + ++foo[--foo[bar++] - bar--] + ++bar]--]++;confusing enough? ortypedef int FOOBar; typedef void FooBAR; #define F00BAR 0 class Foobar { public: FooBAR foobar(); FOOBar fooBar(); }; class FooBar { public: FooBAR foobar(); Foobar fooBar(const Foobar &foobar); }; FooBAR Foobar::foobar() { Foobar foobar; } FOOBar Foobar::fooBar() { return F00BAR; } FooBAR FooBar::foobar() { FooBar foobar; } Foobar FooBar::fooBar(const Foobar &foobar) { return foobar; } FOOBar main() { FooBar FOOBAR; Foobar foobar; Foobar Foobar; FooBar FooBar; Foobar.foobar(); FooBar.foobar(); foobar.foobar(); FOOBAR.foobar(); foobar = FOOBAR.fooBar(foobar); return FooBar.foobar(); }very bad code, but perfectly compilable ;P exploiting typdefs and case sensitivity...int count = 0; for (int i=1; i < 10; i++); count++;again, perfectly compilable... now does that all make the language bad? not necessarily... no language is perfect. its harder to exploit having the same name in vb due to case sensitivity... for loops must be a block... can't use assignment where a condition is expected. does that make vb better? no... for some applications it will work better, for others another language is a better choice. Its a matter of choosing the right tool for the job.malharone wrote:
I'd say the strengh of the language should be measured by the reserved keywords!
or maybe by the person using the keywords? ;) Anything can be exploited... from the for loops in c-ish languages to the option explicit + strict.