Career Question
-
I've been doing .NET contract work for about the last 2 1/2 years, focusing on C#, WinForms and SQL Server Stored Procedures. I have just recently been converted to permanent (about a month ago). This position was my second IT contract. The salary was quite not what I was expecting (around 70k), but the company is a start-up with some great ideas, a lot of capital, and a lot of smart people behind the helm. It barely has an IT department, so one of the major appeals was being able to get in on the ground floor. I was assured by my project manager that if I stayed on board, I would achieve Sr. Level Developer status. This also interested me. We have one senior level developer already on board, who has about five-seven years in the industry. He has recently accepted another position with a different company, so I was looking forward to stepping into his shoes, as my project manager led me to believe I would be able to do multiple times. I was being trained on the different areas that I would need to know to take over his position, and I had not received any complaints. As a matter of fact, my manager had asked me to step up to bat and fill in for him at this time, and to quote "make me proud". Well, today my project manager hired another Sr. Level Developer to replace him, so I'm left wondering what happened? Was my project manager simply trying to tell me what I want to hear to come on-board full-time? Don't get me wrong, I'm happy to have a full-time position and to be able to work for this company, but, somehow, I feel a little cheated. I may sound over-ambitious. I'm only 25 and have been doing this only 2-3 years, but I've been busting my ass for this company, working late nights (often until midnight or into the early morning hours), giving up weekends and corporate holidays to meet deadlines, and doing all that was necessary to get the job done on time. Any opinions?
honestly, 2 to 3 years experience while you may be a great programmer, is really not enough to have the level of experience they may be wanting. It's funny but after many years programming you start to see certain things over and over (which is what makes your experience valuable to an employer that you've seen and solved these problems before). 70k for full time with 2-3 years experience is just about right. Contracting always pays more $ but is nowhere near as safe (depends on what your looking for in life).
-
computerguru92382 wrote:
needs to thank God they have a good jog
Hell yeah! Nothing like a good jog in the morning. ;P [edit] Ordering is messed up again. [/edit] Jeremy Falcon
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
Hell yeah! Nothing like a good jog in the morning.
Oops, I meant a good job :) Though a good jog would be nice, but it brings me back memories of high school Track and Field :)
-
And I am about to graduate with a Master's in Computer Sci with 10+ years IT experience. Cannot attract anyone's attention for a good paying job (by my standard right now, would be 50K+/yr) and he is having an issue about 70k? Sounds like someone needs to thank God they have a good job :)
computerguru92382 wrote:
Cannot attract anyone's attention for a good paying job
hmmmm.... You should have put in for ours. We have strong competition for our current opening(s), about that same level. I don't control or know the pay though. We still have one opening left, but have some good candidates. Look Down on Feb 6 openings[^] _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
-
dynam0k2atgmaildotcom wrote:
Any opinions?
Welcome to the real world of work. Managers will make all kinds of promises like this and then forget all about them at crunch time. Of course, the best way to deal with this is to talk to your manager. Ask if you were considered for the post and if not, why not. Keep the lines of communication open. Perhaps they thought you weren't ready for a senior position. I learnt the hard way at that age, that I wasn't ready. You've obviously worked hard, probably too hard. You sound like you've made the same mistakes all us young, idealist developers make. Working your ass off for no real extra reward. To quote the cliche, perhaps you need to be working smarter not harder. Putting those kind of hours in, is really bad. If you are working those hours to achieve a deadline, then your project is in trouble. A standard 40 hour week should be enough to get a well run project completed on time. Sure, the occasional bit of extra work will always be needed but it should be the exception rather than the rule. Michael CP Blog [^] Development Blog [^]
Michael P Butler wrote:
Putting those kind of hours in, is really bad. If you are working those hours to achieve a deadline, then your project is in trouble.
Hmmm, I never thought of it from this perspective, but you have a point. At least from the manager's point of view. And come to think I never even though doing extra time was a bad thing. Now I know I gotta read some management stuff. regards, Mircea Many people spend their life going to sleep when they’re not sleepy and waking up while they still are.
-
computerguru92382 wrote:
Cannot attract anyone's attention for a good paying job
hmmmm.... You should have put in for ours. We have strong competition for our current opening(s), about that same level. I don't control or know the pay though. We still have one opening left, but have some good candidates. Look Down on Feb 6 openings[^] _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
Thanks for the link. Will keep for future :)
-
computerguru92382 wrote:
needs to thank God they have a good jog
Hell yeah! Nothing like a good jog in the morning. ;P [edit] Ordering is messed up again. [/edit] Jeremy Falcon
:laugh::laugh::laugh: Man, that was funny! regards, Mircea Many people spend their life going to sleep when they’re not sleepy and waking up while they still are.
-
Thanks for the link. Will keep for future :)
computerguru92382 wrote:
Thanks for the link. Will keep for future
well... it's not filled yet. At least one position isn't. Flying someone out for interview later this month. But I wasn't going to lie to you, there is some strong candidates, though we have yet to find that perfect "math, physics, GUI, 3D, developer with a masters or a PhD willing to move to the middle of nowhere." _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
-
I very strongly believe that a Senior Developer must have at least 7 years actual design and development experience, preferably 10. It isn't a matter of just working hard or extra hours, but years of on-the-job experience learning what works and what doesn't. (I also have a problem with developers who move into management for several years and when they move back into development expect to be made senior engineers based on years of work experience, not years of development work experience. [At the risk of offending some people here, I've found that most, but not all, such developers are a royal pain the ass.]) Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
Joe Woodbury wrote:
I very strongly believe that a Senior Developer must have at least 7 years actual design and development experience, preferably 10.
Some of the Lead Program Managers at Microsoft are in their mid 20s, usually 25-27, and often have less than 5 years of professional experience. And they are really good too. So numbers often do not tell the real story. Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
The Ultimate Grid - The #1 MFC grid out there! -
Joe Woodbury wrote:
I very strongly believe that a Senior Developer must have at least 7 years actual design and development experience, preferably 10.
Some of the Lead Program Managers at Microsoft are in their mid 20s, usually 25-27, and often have less than 5 years of professional experience. And they are really good too. So numbers often do not tell the real story. Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
The Ultimate Grid - The #1 MFC grid out there!Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
professional experience
Yeah, but I'm sure they've had a lot of non-professional experience to go along with that. Jeremy Falcon
-
Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
professional experience
Yeah, but I'm sure they've had a lot of non-professional experience to go along with that. Jeremy Falcon
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
Yeah, but I'm sure they've had a lot of non-professional experience to go along with that.
Yeah, probably the sorts who write compilers when they are 14. Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
The Ultimate Grid - The #1 MFC grid out there! -
dynam0k2atgmaildotcom wrote:
The salary was quite not what I was expecting (around 70k)
What is the problem? Many of us would be happy to make that :mad:
I don't think it's fair at all to judge this. We don't know the work required. We don't know anything about what's involved. Whether it's 70K or 35K doesn't matter. Obviously, there's a reason for disgruntlement and it goes beyond the wage. I think he's just framing the whole context for his state of mind and what's affecting his decisions. If I told you guys how much I made you'd wish you were me... If I told you how much I worked you'd be glad you weren't... If I told you what my expenses were to operate including taxes and other fees you'd be ill... I won't tell you any of that though. ;) I will say that after being an employee and now self employed there's nothing I'd rather be doing than working for myself. It's the best.:rose:
A Plain English signature. Code-frog System Architects, Inc.
-
:laugh::laugh::laugh: Man, that was funny! regards, Mircea Many people spend their life going to sleep when they’re not sleepy and waking up while they still are.
Yeah, I'd like to go for a good jog but living in the high altitude and being not in the shape I was in during high school, makes it difficult :)
-
computerguru92382 wrote:
Thanks for the link. Will keep for future
well... it's not filled yet. At least one position isn't. Flying someone out for interview later this month. But I wasn't going to lie to you, there is some strong candidates, though we have yet to find that perfect "math, physics, GUI, 3D, developer with a masters or a PhD willing to move to the middle of nowhere." _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
middle of nowhere
Whereabouts? I am pretty settled in where I am :)
-
Yeah, I'd like to go for a good jog but living in the high altitude and being not in the shape I was in during high school, makes it difficult :)
Speaking about jogging, I would love to do it too, but the wheater just doesn't let me. It's so freakin cold my lungs would freeze. regards, Mircea Many people spend their life going to sleep when they’re not sleepy and waking up while they still are.
-
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
middle of nowhere
Whereabouts? I am pretty settled in where I am :)
computerguru92382 wrote:
Whereabouts? I am pretty settled in where I am
Look north from El Paso, TX... and spit. There we are. ;) the white stain on the ground is from everyone else doing the same... :laugh: _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
-
I've been doing .NET contract work for about the last 2 1/2 years, focusing on C#, WinForms and SQL Server Stored Procedures. I have just recently been converted to permanent (about a month ago). This position was my second IT contract. The salary was quite not what I was expecting (around 70k), but the company is a start-up with some great ideas, a lot of capital, and a lot of smart people behind the helm. It barely has an IT department, so one of the major appeals was being able to get in on the ground floor. I was assured by my project manager that if I stayed on board, I would achieve Sr. Level Developer status. This also interested me. We have one senior level developer already on board, who has about five-seven years in the industry. He has recently accepted another position with a different company, so I was looking forward to stepping into his shoes, as my project manager led me to believe I would be able to do multiple times. I was being trained on the different areas that I would need to know to take over his position, and I had not received any complaints. As a matter of fact, my manager had asked me to step up to bat and fill in for him at this time, and to quote "make me proud". Well, today my project manager hired another Sr. Level Developer to replace him, so I'm left wondering what happened? Was my project manager simply trying to tell me what I want to hear to come on-board full-time? Don't get me wrong, I'm happy to have a full-time position and to be able to work for this company, but, somehow, I feel a little cheated. I may sound over-ambitious. I'm only 25 and have been doing this only 2-3 years, but I've been busting my ass for this company, working late nights (often until midnight or into the early morning hours), giving up weekends and corporate holidays to meet deadlines, and doing all that was necessary to get the job done on time. Any opinions?
dynam0k2atgmaildotcom wrote:
but I've been busting my ass for this company, working late nights (often until midnight or into the early morning hours), giving up weekends and corporate holidays to meet deadlines, and doing all that was necessary to get the job done on time.
Well, I may sound really sarcastic saying this, but you don't owe them anything beyond 8-5, and they certainly won't treat you like anything other than a replaceable resource. It's a hard lesson to learn. Marc Pensieve Functional Entanglement vs. Code Entanglement Static Classes Make For Rigid Architectures
-
I don't think it's fair at all to judge this. We don't know the work required. We don't know anything about what's involved. Whether it's 70K or 35K doesn't matter. Obviously, there's a reason for disgruntlement and it goes beyond the wage. I think he's just framing the whole context for his state of mind and what's affecting his decisions. If I told you guys how much I made you'd wish you were me... If I told you how much I worked you'd be glad you weren't... If I told you what my expenses were to operate including taxes and other fees you'd be ill... I won't tell you any of that though. ;) I will say that after being an employee and now self employed there's nothing I'd rather be doing than working for myself. It's the best.:rose:
A Plain English signature. Code-frog System Architects, Inc.
code-frog wrote:
If I told you guys how much I made you'd wish you were me... If I told you how much I worked you'd be glad you weren't... If I told you what my expenses were to operate including taxes and other fees you'd be ill...
A) Nope, I prefer being myself... I spent too many years being molded into someone else... THAT was illness. B) Same issue, would have never considered being someone else. :) but I might encourage you to relax a bit. ;) C) Nope, I am familiar with operational expenses on the... err... grander scale, I'd probably shrug.
code-frog wrote:
I will say that after being an employee and now self employed there's nothing I'd rather be doing than working for myself. It's the best.
That is what is important, regardless of salary, or position, or location, if you are happy, that is what is most important. If you are just "satisfied" perhaps it is time to look about. If you are unhappy, look before you get ulcers. :) _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
-
dynam0k2atgmaildotcom wrote:
but I've been busting my ass for this company, working late nights (often until midnight or into the early morning hours), giving up weekends and corporate holidays to meet deadlines, and doing all that was necessary to get the job done on time.
Well, I may sound really sarcastic saying this, but you don't owe them anything beyond 8-5, and they certainly won't treat you like anything other than a replaceable resource. It's a hard lesson to learn. Marc Pensieve Functional Entanglement vs. Code Entanglement Static Classes Make For Rigid Architectures
Marc Clifton wrote:
Well, I may sound really sarcastic saying this, but you don't owe them anything beyond 8-5, and they certainly won't treat you like anything other than a replaceable resource.
Yes. It's that last part that most people don't think too much off - that every employee is replaceable.
Marc Clifton wrote:
It's a hard lesson to learn.
Again, yes. My 5. Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
The Ultimate Grid - The #1 MFC grid out there! -
computerguru92382 wrote:
Whereabouts? I am pretty settled in where I am
Look north from El Paso, TX... and spit. There we are. ;) the white stain on the ground is from everyone else doing the same... :laugh: _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
In Las Cruces? Either way I am about 10 hours up I-10 from you :)
-
Speaking about jogging, I would love to do it too, but the wheater just doesn't let me. It's so freakin cold my lungs would freeze. regards, Mircea Many people spend their life going to sleep when they’re not sleepy and waking up while they still are.
Mircea Grelus wrote:
It's so freakin cold my lungs would freeze.
How cold is it where you are?