New Images Support 'Big Bang' Theory
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Bassam, Great question. If the universe was the size of a marble, where was it located? This is where I think science falls down. The traditional Judeao Christian understanding of creation is that both time and space are part of the creation... which makes the question of what happened "before" the Big Bang... and "where" did the Big Bang take place... somewhat moot points. 100 years ago secularists were deriding believers about the idea of a instantaneous creation. It turns out that instantaneous creation was exactly the way it happened. Science studies matter situated in time and space... God, from the traditional viewpoint, stands outside of matter, time, and space... and is therefore transcendent. So the "secular" objection that science can't find God directly in space, matter, and time posses no issue for me... it would be a bigger issue if they did claim to find God. Of course Christians believe that God the Son (Jesus) did walk the earth. I believe that too... but not through science... through faith. But I do love this whole marble story... very, very cool. Chadlling
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That's understandable. I would too. So long as one keeps an open mind about God, I think you will find what you're looking for. *edit* by the way, it looks like your Merrens site is down, just an FYI.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Moral Muscle The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
Thanks to Brinkster and a bad MySql server. I'm hoping to get switched to a new one in the morning. Grr. www.merrens.com
www.bkmrx.com -
xlr8td wrote:
My question for the unbelievers is - "who flicked the marble to cause the explosion?"
And mine for believers is who flicked the nothing to create the god(s). In either case you've got an uncaused cause, or infinite regress. :D Or in other words "You can't trick me that easily, it's turtles all the way down".
Which came first - the turtle or the egg?
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The essence of faith is to believe without requiring proof. But, for proof, I look at the marvel that is creation; I see the flowers in their infinite beauty; I see the stars that light the night sky. But, if proof is required, Jesus died and rose from the dead. Proof of God's existence.
Tim Carmichael wrote:
But, if proof is required, Jesus died and rose from the dead. Proof of God's existence
sorry. even if Jesus did come back to life, that would not necessarily prove anything about God. it might prove that zombies really happen, that Jesus wasn't actually dead, that some human or natural action caused him to start breathing again, etc.. only faith gets you from a story about a zombie to "Proof of God's existence" Cleek | Image Toolkits | Thumbnail maker
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Bassam, Great question. If the universe was the size of a marble, where was it located? This is where I think science falls down. The traditional Judeao Christian understanding of creation is that both time and space are part of the creation... which makes the question of what happened "before" the Big Bang... and "where" did the Big Bang take place... somewhat moot points. 100 years ago secularists were deriding believers about the idea of a instantaneous creation. It turns out that instantaneous creation was exactly the way it happened. Science studies matter situated in time and space... God, from the traditional viewpoint, stands outside of matter, time, and space... and is therefore transcendent. So the "secular" objection that science can't find God directly in space, matter, and time posses no issue for me... it would be a bigger issue if they did claim to find God. Of course Christians believe that God the Son (Jesus) did walk the earth. I believe that too... but not through science... through faith. But I do love this whole marble story... very, very cool. Chadlling
Chadlling wrote:
This is where I think science falls down
actually, this is where you need to learn more science. Cleek | Image Toolkits | Thumbnail maker
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Chadlling wrote:
This is where I think science falls down
actually, this is where you need to learn more science. Cleek | Image Toolkits | Thumbnail maker
I always get a kick out of these kinds of discussions when the majority of the participants likely don't have anything past a general first year physics course, yet seem to think they know everything about cosmology - one of the most abstract topics out there. Kind of cracks me up. Cheers, Drew.
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See, there you go again, passing the blame for your actions to your god. What a perfect life you must have: you can say and do as you please and when it all goes tits up you can pass the buck. And why are you so easily offended by words? I don't know you or him or anyone here and you can say what you like to me (actually you can to my face as many will atest) and I don't get offended. I might laugh but offended? No. www.merrens.com
www.bkmrx.comdigital man wrote:
See, there you go again, passing the blame for your actions to your god.
When did I do that? :confused:
digital man wrote:
And why are you so easily offended by words?
:confused::confused::confused: I have been trying to think of a reply, but I am speechless. It is like me making the comment, "I like peas" and you replying, "But, what did the Eskimos ever do to you?" It makes no sense. Gary Kirkham Forever Forgiven and Alive in the Spirit He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliot Me blog, You read
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Chadlling wrote:
This is where I think science falls down
actually, this is where you need to learn more science. Cleek | Image Toolkits | Thumbnail maker
We struggle to understand our own universe (and we're still far from understanding it). What makes you think that science is capable of describing the properties of existence before the big bang. It was clearly nothing like our current universe. I doubt science will ever be able to provide an answer to that specific question.
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What kind of proof are you looking for? An early follower of Jesus put it this way: the evidence of God is all around us; we don't need a miraculous, supernatural "God was here!" kind of event to prove him, do we? Is that what you're looking for? If it is, you might be disappointed, because you are not the first to ask for such proof of God:
Later a few scholars and teachers got on him. "Teacher, we want to see your credentials. Give us some hard evidence that God is in this. How about a miracle?" Jesus said, "You're looking for proof, but you're looking for the wrong kind. All you want is something to titillate your curiosity, satisfy your lust for miracles. Because of this, the only proof you're going to get is what looks like the absence of proof.
What I am convinced of is that people who are looking for this kind of proof are out to disprove the existence of God. They aren't really looking for miracles, they're just out to disprove God's existence by the absence of miracles. If that is you, then there is nothing I can say to convince you otherwise; in fact, Jesus performed miracles himself witnessed by not only his followers, but also by people who were out to disprove his existence such as secular historians and the Judaic scribes, both groups of people saw the miracles, yet refused to believe anyways because they already had their made up their minds, there was no convincing them. I am convinced that if you do not have an open mind to God--if you are only out there to disprove his existence--then even miracles will not convince you, as it did not convince people with closed minds and hard hearts in the past. You've got to have an open mind to the existence of God before you will find proof either way.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Moral Muscle The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
Judah Himango wrote:
I am convinced that if you do not have an open mind to God--if you are only out there to disprove his existence--then even miracles will not convince you, as it did not convince people with closed minds and hard hearts in the past. You've got to have an open mind to the existence of God before you will find proof either way.
Not necessarily true. I'm sure you've heard of a dude named CS Lewis[^], who actually set out to prove that God did not exist...and subsequently became one of the most powerful authors of the Christian faith. :)
They dress you up in white satin, And give you your very own pair of wings In August and Everything After
I'm after everything
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Gary Kirkham wrote:
Why do people find the statement, "God created the heavens and the earth" somehow less believable?
Because it is unbelievable? At least these scientists are examining an event to decipher and explain what happened without dismissing it as the creation of an omnipotent and unseen deity and are putting forward both theories and evidence to support their claims. Where is the tangible, verifiable evidence of your god? www.merrens.com
www.bkmrx.comdigital man wrote:
scientists are examining an event
These scientists are not examining the Big Bang. They are examining microwave signals and interpreting them based on their pre-suppositions. They have a predisposition to the universe being billions of years old and have being created by a big explosion. Therefore, their "evidence" supports them. It's the difference between operational science and creation science. Operational science involves things that can be examined and reproduced according to the scientific method. Creation science is more based on your "religion" (Humanism, Christianity, etc.). These scientists obviously are humanist (atheist) who believe there is no external being controlling the universe; and that's fine as long as their results are taken within that context rather than as "proof" of anything. You can't tell me with a straight face that these guys can tell you what happened billions of years ago when the universe was a trillionth of a second old by looking at some microwave signals? :laugh: If you believe that, you have more faith than I do! Barry Etter
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I always get a kick out of these kinds of discussions when the majority of the participants likely don't have anything past a general first year physics course, yet seem to think they know everything about cosmology - one of the most abstract topics out there. Kind of cracks me up. Cheers, Drew.
Drew Stainton wrote:
Kind of cracks me up.
yup. unfortunately for cosmology and biology, there are centuries of religious/faith-based stories to overcome. luckily, the bible didn't try to teach mathematics or chemistry - we'd never get anywhere. Cleek | Image Toolkits | Thumbnail maker
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Drew Stainton wrote:
Kind of cracks me up.
yup. unfortunately for cosmology and biology, there are centuries of religious/faith-based stories to overcome. luckily, the bible didn't try to teach mathematics or chemistry - we'd never get anywhere. Cleek | Image Toolkits | Thumbnail maker
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Judah Himango wrote:
I am convinced that if you do not have an open mind to God--if you are only out there to disprove his existence--then even miracles will not convince you, as it did not convince people with closed minds and hard hearts in the past. You've got to have an open mind to the existence of God before you will find proof either way.
Not necessarily true. I'm sure you've heard of a dude named CS Lewis[^], who actually set out to prove that God did not exist...and subsequently became one of the most powerful authors of the Christian faith. :)
They dress you up in white satin, And give you your very own pair of wings In August and Everything After
I'm after everything
And St. Augustine.
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We struggle to understand our own universe (and we're still far from understanding it). What makes you think that science is capable of describing the properties of existence before the big bang. It was clearly nothing like our current universe. I doubt science will ever be able to provide an answer to that specific question.
espeir wrote:
What makes you think that science is capable of describing the properties of existence before the big bang.
at heart, i don't believe eternal ignorance is inevitable, for any subject. it may take decades, centuries, millennia for us to figure it out. but, if it can be known, we will know it.
espeir wrote:
It was clearly nothing like our current universe.
so, you can know what it was like, but science can't ? Cleek | Image Toolkits | Thumbnail maker
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Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
What's outside the marble?[^]
The marble bag :omg: Go watch Men in Black[^] if you don't believe me... :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:
Found on Bash.org [erno] hm. I've lost a machine.. literally _lost_. it responds to ping, it works completely, I just can't figure out where in my apartment it is.
-- modified at 9:05 Friday 17th March, 2006
Seriously, who voted me down? Anyone who has seen the movie knows it was a joke.
Found on Bash.org [erno] hm. I've lost a machine.. literally _lost_. it responds to ping, it works completely, I just can't figure out where in my apartment it is.
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And St. Augustine.
And then there was that Paul the apostle guy... :rolleyes:
They dress you up in white satin, And give you your very own pair of wings In August and Everything After
I'm after everything
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Tim Carmichael wrote:
But, if proof is required, Jesus died and rose from the dead. Proof of God's existence
sorry. even if Jesus did come back to life, that would not necessarily prove anything about God. it might prove that zombies really happen, that Jesus wasn't actually dead, that some human or natural action caused him to start breathing again, etc.. only faith gets you from a story about a zombie to "Proof of God's existence" Cleek | Image Toolkits | Thumbnail maker
Chris Losinger wrote:
even if Jesus did come back to life, that would not necessarily prove anything about God. it might prove that zombies really happen, that Jesus wasn't actually dead, that some human or natural action caused him to start breathing again, etc..
:laugh: Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
The Ultimate Grid - The #1 MFC grid out there! -
Judah Himango wrote:
I am convinced that if you do not have an open mind to God--if you are only out there to disprove his existence--then even miracles will not convince you, as it did not convince people with closed minds and hard hearts in the past. You've got to have an open mind to the existence of God before you will find proof either way.
Not necessarily true. I'm sure you've heard of a dude named CS Lewis[^], who actually set out to prove that God did not exist...and subsequently became one of the most powerful authors of the Christian faith. :)
They dress you up in white satin, And give you your very own pair of wings In August and Everything After
I'm after everything
Good point David. Likewise, Paul was sort of the lead persecutor of the believers in Messiah, only to have Messiah confront him and totally change him, not only making Paul see where he was going wrong, but going as far as turning him into one of the greatest followers of God, worldly speaking. That is some real grace and forgiveness there. It's as if God said, "Hey, I'll completely erase your past mistakes and make you a better person if you just follow me." That is awesome. As I understand it, Lewis was changed with the help from another author, J.R.R. Tolkien. Kind of cool when you think about it. :cool: It seems to me both of these guys had some sort of opening in thier minds, there must have been a place and a point at which they would let truth in and let their doubts fade away. Even though both of these men were probably convinced of the rightness of their wrongs, they obviously were not completely shut out to the possibility of God, there had to be some opening in their hearts and minds. That, or God did the opening for them, IMO.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Moral Muscle The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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espeir wrote:
What makes you think that science is capable of describing the properties of existence before the big bang.
at heart, i don't believe eternal ignorance is inevitable, for any subject. it may take decades, centuries, millennia for us to figure it out. but, if it can be known, we will know it.
espeir wrote:
It was clearly nothing like our current universe.
so, you can know what it was like, but science can't ? Cleek | Image Toolkits | Thumbnail maker
Chris Losinger wrote:
so, you can know what it was like, but science can't ?
It's well known that the laws of our universe break down the closer you get to the actual big bang (in very small fractions of a second). Matter, space and time just don't exist at that point and reproducing the big bang is just not going to ever be possible. Let's just say that I'm not optimistic that our brains are capable of ever learning (and reasonably proving) what the universe was like before the and at the instant of the big bang. There is simply no comparitive perception we can apply to that sort of universe.
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Seriously, who voted me down? Anyone who has seen the movie knows it was a joke.
Found on Bash.org [erno] hm. I've lost a machine.. literally _lost_. it responds to ping, it works completely, I just can't figure out where in my apartment it is.
I didn't vote you down, but weren't those galaxies?