New Images Support 'Big Bang' Theory
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What kind of proof are you looking for? An early follower of Jesus put it this way: the evidence of God is all around us; we don't need a miraculous, supernatural "God was here!" kind of event to prove him, do we? Is that what you're looking for? If it is, you might be disappointed, because you are not the first to ask for such proof of God:
Later a few scholars and teachers got on him. "Teacher, we want to see your credentials. Give us some hard evidence that God is in this. How about a miracle?" Jesus said, "You're looking for proof, but you're looking for the wrong kind. All you want is something to titillate your curiosity, satisfy your lust for miracles. Because of this, the only proof you're going to get is what looks like the absence of proof.
What I am convinced of is that people who are looking for this kind of proof are out to disprove the existence of God. They aren't really looking for miracles, they're just out to disprove God's existence by the absence of miracles. If that is you, then there is nothing I can say to convince you otherwise; in fact, Jesus performed miracles himself witnessed by not only his followers, but also by people who were out to disprove his existence such as secular historians and the Judaic scribes, both groups of people saw the miracles, yet refused to believe anyways because they already had their made up their minds, there was no convincing them. I am convinced that if you do not have an open mind to God--if you are only out there to disprove his existence--then even miracles will not convince you, as it did not convince people with closed minds and hard hearts in the past. You've got to have an open mind to the existence of God before you will find proof either way.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Moral Muscle The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
Judah Himango wrote:
I am convinced that if you do not have an open mind to God--if you are only out there to disprove his existence--then even miracles will not convince you, as it did not convince people with closed minds and hard hearts in the past. You've got to have an open mind to the existence of God before you will find proof either way.
Not necessarily true. I'm sure you've heard of a dude named CS Lewis[^], who actually set out to prove that God did not exist...and subsequently became one of the most powerful authors of the Christian faith. :)
They dress you up in white satin, And give you your very own pair of wings In August and Everything After
I'm after everything
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Gary Kirkham wrote:
Why do people find the statement, "God created the heavens and the earth" somehow less believable?
Because it is unbelievable? At least these scientists are examining an event to decipher and explain what happened without dismissing it as the creation of an omnipotent and unseen deity and are putting forward both theories and evidence to support their claims. Where is the tangible, verifiable evidence of your god? www.merrens.com
www.bkmrx.comdigital man wrote:
scientists are examining an event
These scientists are not examining the Big Bang. They are examining microwave signals and interpreting them based on their pre-suppositions. They have a predisposition to the universe being billions of years old and have being created by a big explosion. Therefore, their "evidence" supports them. It's the difference between operational science and creation science. Operational science involves things that can be examined and reproduced according to the scientific method. Creation science is more based on your "religion" (Humanism, Christianity, etc.). These scientists obviously are humanist (atheist) who believe there is no external being controlling the universe; and that's fine as long as their results are taken within that context rather than as "proof" of anything. You can't tell me with a straight face that these guys can tell you what happened billions of years ago when the universe was a trillionth of a second old by looking at some microwave signals? :laugh: If you believe that, you have more faith than I do! Barry Etter
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I always get a kick out of these kinds of discussions when the majority of the participants likely don't have anything past a general first year physics course, yet seem to think they know everything about cosmology - one of the most abstract topics out there. Kind of cracks me up. Cheers, Drew.
Drew Stainton wrote:
Kind of cracks me up.
yup. unfortunately for cosmology and biology, there are centuries of religious/faith-based stories to overcome. luckily, the bible didn't try to teach mathematics or chemistry - we'd never get anywhere. Cleek | Image Toolkits | Thumbnail maker
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Drew Stainton wrote:
Kind of cracks me up.
yup. unfortunately for cosmology and biology, there are centuries of religious/faith-based stories to overcome. luckily, the bible didn't try to teach mathematics or chemistry - we'd never get anywhere. Cleek | Image Toolkits | Thumbnail maker
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Judah Himango wrote:
I am convinced that if you do not have an open mind to God--if you are only out there to disprove his existence--then even miracles will not convince you, as it did not convince people with closed minds and hard hearts in the past. You've got to have an open mind to the existence of God before you will find proof either way.
Not necessarily true. I'm sure you've heard of a dude named CS Lewis[^], who actually set out to prove that God did not exist...and subsequently became one of the most powerful authors of the Christian faith. :)
They dress you up in white satin, And give you your very own pair of wings In August and Everything After
I'm after everything
And St. Augustine.
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We struggle to understand our own universe (and we're still far from understanding it). What makes you think that science is capable of describing the properties of existence before the big bang. It was clearly nothing like our current universe. I doubt science will ever be able to provide an answer to that specific question.
espeir wrote:
What makes you think that science is capable of describing the properties of existence before the big bang.
at heart, i don't believe eternal ignorance is inevitable, for any subject. it may take decades, centuries, millennia for us to figure it out. but, if it can be known, we will know it.
espeir wrote:
It was clearly nothing like our current universe.
so, you can know what it was like, but science can't ? Cleek | Image Toolkits | Thumbnail maker
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Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
What's outside the marble?[^]
The marble bag :omg: Go watch Men in Black[^] if you don't believe me... :laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:
Found on Bash.org [erno] hm. I've lost a machine.. literally _lost_. it responds to ping, it works completely, I just can't figure out where in my apartment it is.
-- modified at 9:05 Friday 17th March, 2006
Seriously, who voted me down? Anyone who has seen the movie knows it was a joke.
Found on Bash.org [erno] hm. I've lost a machine.. literally _lost_. it responds to ping, it works completely, I just can't figure out where in my apartment it is.
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And St. Augustine.
And then there was that Paul the apostle guy... :rolleyes:
They dress you up in white satin, And give you your very own pair of wings In August and Everything After
I'm after everything
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Tim Carmichael wrote:
But, if proof is required, Jesus died and rose from the dead. Proof of God's existence
sorry. even if Jesus did come back to life, that would not necessarily prove anything about God. it might prove that zombies really happen, that Jesus wasn't actually dead, that some human or natural action caused him to start breathing again, etc.. only faith gets you from a story about a zombie to "Proof of God's existence" Cleek | Image Toolkits | Thumbnail maker
Chris Losinger wrote:
even if Jesus did come back to life, that would not necessarily prove anything about God. it might prove that zombies really happen, that Jesus wasn't actually dead, that some human or natural action caused him to start breathing again, etc..
:laugh: Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
The Ultimate Grid - The #1 MFC grid out there! -
Judah Himango wrote:
I am convinced that if you do not have an open mind to God--if you are only out there to disprove his existence--then even miracles will not convince you, as it did not convince people with closed minds and hard hearts in the past. You've got to have an open mind to the existence of God before you will find proof either way.
Not necessarily true. I'm sure you've heard of a dude named CS Lewis[^], who actually set out to prove that God did not exist...and subsequently became one of the most powerful authors of the Christian faith. :)
They dress you up in white satin, And give you your very own pair of wings In August and Everything After
I'm after everything
Good point David. Likewise, Paul was sort of the lead persecutor of the believers in Messiah, only to have Messiah confront him and totally change him, not only making Paul see where he was going wrong, but going as far as turning him into one of the greatest followers of God, worldly speaking. That is some real grace and forgiveness there. It's as if God said, "Hey, I'll completely erase your past mistakes and make you a better person if you just follow me." That is awesome. As I understand it, Lewis was changed with the help from another author, J.R.R. Tolkien. Kind of cool when you think about it. :cool: It seems to me both of these guys had some sort of opening in thier minds, there must have been a place and a point at which they would let truth in and let their doubts fade away. Even though both of these men were probably convinced of the rightness of their wrongs, they obviously were not completely shut out to the possibility of God, there had to be some opening in their hearts and minds. That, or God did the opening for them, IMO.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Moral Muscle The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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espeir wrote:
What makes you think that science is capable of describing the properties of existence before the big bang.
at heart, i don't believe eternal ignorance is inevitable, for any subject. it may take decades, centuries, millennia for us to figure it out. but, if it can be known, we will know it.
espeir wrote:
It was clearly nothing like our current universe.
so, you can know what it was like, but science can't ? Cleek | Image Toolkits | Thumbnail maker
Chris Losinger wrote:
so, you can know what it was like, but science can't ?
It's well known that the laws of our universe break down the closer you get to the actual big bang (in very small fractions of a second). Matter, space and time just don't exist at that point and reproducing the big bang is just not going to ever be possible. Let's just say that I'm not optimistic that our brains are capable of ever learning (and reasonably proving) what the universe was like before the and at the instant of the big bang. There is simply no comparitive perception we can apply to that sort of universe.
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Seriously, who voted me down? Anyone who has seen the movie knows it was a joke.
Found on Bash.org [erno] hm. I've lost a machine.. literally _lost_. it responds to ping, it works completely, I just can't figure out where in my apartment it is.
I didn't vote you down, but weren't those galaxies?
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Tim Carmichael wrote:
If there is nothing outside the marble (including space without matter in it), where does the marble expand to?
From my understanding, space is curved onto itself; which means theoretically you can start from a point, keep traveling in a straight line, and end up at your starting point - much like walking around the earth. Cheers, Vikram.
I don't know and you don't either. Militant Agnostic
"The universe is shaped exactly like the earth if you go straight long enough you'll end up where you were"- Modest Mouse, Third Planet BW
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
-- Steven Wright -
Gary Kirkham wrote:
Why do people find the statement, "God created the heavens and the earth" somehow less believable?
Because it is unbelievable? At least these scientists are examining an event to decipher and explain what happened without dismissing it as the creation of an omnipotent and unseen deity and are putting forward both theories and evidence to support their claims. Where is the tangible, verifiable evidence of your god? www.merrens.com
www.bkmrx.comdigital man wrote:
Where is the tangible, verifiable evidence of your god?
It's all around you. Open your eyes.
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Chris Losinger wrote:
so, you can know what it was like, but science can't ?
It's well known that the laws of our universe break down the closer you get to the actual big bang (in very small fractions of a second). Matter, space and time just don't exist at that point and reproducing the big bang is just not going to ever be possible. Let's just say that I'm not optimistic that our brains are capable of ever learning (and reasonably proving) what the universe was like before the and at the instant of the big bang. There is simply no comparitive perception we can apply to that sort of universe.
espeir wrote:
It's well known that the laws of our universe break down the closer you get to the actual big bang
that probably means we don't yet know "the laws of the universe". our incomplete understanding of, for example, gravity and black holes suggests the same thing. but, before Newton, we barely understood the mechanics of falling objects. and it took another 300 years before we even began to understand the physics of flying objects. when people say things like "Let's just say that I'm not optimistic that our brains are capable of ever learning...." i wonder what people were saying when Kepler proposed his laws of planetary motion. were they saying "Let's just say that I'm not optimistic that our brains are capable of ever learning what controls the movements of the planets" ? probably Cleek | Image Toolkits | Thumbnail maker
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Gary Kirkham wrote:
Why do people find the statement, "God created the heavens and the earth" somehow less believable?
Because it is unbelievable? At least these scientists are examining an event to decipher and explain what happened without dismissing it as the creation of an omnipotent and unseen deity and are putting forward both theories and evidence to support their claims. Where is the tangible, verifiable evidence of your god? www.merrens.com
www.bkmrx.comdigital man wrote:
Where is the tangible, verifiable evidence of your god?
leaving that question alone for a second ( and I *can* answer it ), do you suppose the existence of a God excludes the existence of any evidence of His handywork ? Assuming there was a big bang ( and I have no trouble with that ), does that prove that no God was involved ? Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures. Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. Gary Kirkham Forever Forgiven and Alive in the Spirit He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliot Me blog, You read
Good point... Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++
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espeir wrote:
It's well known that the laws of our universe break down the closer you get to the actual big bang
that probably means we don't yet know "the laws of the universe". our incomplete understanding of, for example, gravity and black holes suggests the same thing. but, before Newton, we barely understood the mechanics of falling objects. and it took another 300 years before we even began to understand the physics of flying objects. when people say things like "Let's just say that I'm not optimistic that our brains are capable of ever learning...." i wonder what people were saying when Kepler proposed his laws of planetary motion. were they saying "Let's just say that I'm not optimistic that our brains are capable of ever learning what controls the movements of the planets" ? probably Cleek | Image Toolkits | Thumbnail maker
I think it might be possible, but I'm not optimistic. We're certainly capable of understanding nature beyond our direct observations, but it gets awfully weird. There is also no way to verify any of it.
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Gary Kirkham wrote:
Why do people find the statement, "God created the heavens and the earth" somehow less believable?
Because it is unbelievable? At least these scientists are examining an event to decipher and explain what happened without dismissing it as the creation of an omnipotent and unseen deity and are putting forward both theories and evidence to support their claims. Where is the tangible, verifiable evidence of your god? www.merrens.com
www.bkmrx.com -
See, there you go again, passing the blame for your actions to your god. What a perfect life you must have: you can say and do as you please and when it all goes tits up you can pass the buck. And why are you so easily offended by words? I don't know you or him or anyone here and you can say what you like to me (actually you can to my face as many will atest) and I don't get offended. I might laugh but offended? No. www.merrens.com
www.bkmrx.com