Adnan's emotions... A white paper [modified]
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Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
Betting on what? It's not a matter of betting that allows you to reach heaven
Absolutely. But putting complete trust and faith in truth is the right thing to do. The difference between us is that we disagree what is truth. My 'bet' is just a metaphore; a way of saying that I'm putting my trust and faith in this Messiah guy because what he espouses is the best way to live a Godly life as far as I know how. I lived the other way and nearly ruined my life with that way. So now I'm convinced by my own living that this God of love is truth, is reality. By the way, a bird pushing its baby out of a nest is an act of love. Just as a parent disciplining a child. Both acts may seem like loveless acts, but the motive is certainly love in both cases.
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Judah Himango wrote:
By the way, a bird pushing its baby out of a nest is an act of love. Just as a parent disciplining a child. Both acts may seem like loveless acts, but the motive is certainly love in both cases.
True, but when we condemn someone for something we think is wrong, we truely have no idea how or why that person acted in the way that he did. That is why I believe religion is a passing phase and laws should take over. There are plenty of people who live their life the way you did and changed for the better, with or without religion and or other influences. In the end, it is your choice to make. I just think it's funny how religious people are always trying to convince others of their religion. It's as if they need assurance in numbers. Like I said before, I am an absolute believer in God. But I prefer athiests to religiious people because I don't like to preach or be preached to.
"People who want to share their religious views with you almost never want you to share yours with them." - Anonymous Web - Blog - RSS - Math
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Judah Himango wrote:
By the way, a bird pushing its baby out of a nest is an act of love. Just as a parent disciplining a child. Both acts may seem like loveless acts, but the motive is certainly love in both cases.
True, but when we condemn someone for something we think is wrong, we truely have no idea how or why that person acted in the way that he did. That is why I believe religion is a passing phase and laws should take over. There are plenty of people who live their life the way you did and changed for the better, with or without religion and or other influences. In the end, it is your choice to make. I just think it's funny how religious people are always trying to convince others of their religion. It's as if they need assurance in numbers. Like I said before, I am an absolute believer in God. But I prefer athiests to religiious people because I don't like to preach or be preached to.
"People who want to share their religious views with you almost never want you to share yours with them." - Anonymous Web - Blog - RSS - Math
Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
when we condemn someone for something we think is wrong
I agree, and hope I haven't been guilty of condemning anyone in this thread. People can make changes for the better without God, sure. But living without God tends to lead to a godless life, and a godless life tends to degenerate into doing whatever you see fit. That is my opinion based on past experience. :)
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That may be so, but a world without love is a loveless world, which is something we could not get along in. I don't think children could mature right if there was no love for them by their parents, for instance.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Goof around music jam with my brothers (with video) The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
I didn't advocate a world devoid of people loving one another. What I do say is that a reasonable world exists where most don't have to love everyone. A little mutual respect goes a lot farther than what I've seen of people running around mouthing platitudes about how they love everyone. The evolution of the human genome is too important to be left to chance.
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Tim Craig wrote:
This seems to be saying that unless people accept your god in your way they aren't leading acceptable lives.
That exactly what he is saying. And to him that is the truth. Do you demand he accept you and you life? Why do people think everyone should accept them? As long as he does nothing harmful to you, he is entitled to his opinion. It a little thing we call freedom.
Tim Craig wrote:
There you go again equating godless to lawless and seem to be saying to be a good person we'd better come around to your way of thinking. To me, that's pretty insulting.
That is not what he is saying. I think, and I may be wrong, he his saying is this: God is the root of moral law. If you do not belive in God, the only reason you follow the laws of the land is fear, of jail time death, whatever. If you believe in God, you follow the laws becase you want to. It makes you feel good pleasing and doing God's will. There is a diffrence. The Godless man man cut corners. In his mind he is following the letter of the law. But a man of God will think of the morality of his actions. I'm sure there are exceptions to this. But if you think about it, it a very logical way of thinking. Don't be insulted so easy, there are a lot of people in the world who may disagree with you. Again, free thought. My mom told me once that "while we all don't speak the same language, everyone in the world undestands an asskicking"
kgaddy wrote:
Do you demand he accept you and you life? Why do people think everyone should accept them?
I don't give a shit whether he personally accepts me or not. But I've found when people start espousing the we're good and you're bad because you don't believe what we do, they generally don't stop at just thinking.
kgaddy wrote:
As long as he does nothing harmful to you, he is entitled to his opinion. It a little thing we call freedom.
There's the rub. As long as he can stop short of trying to force his views down everyone's throat. Lately in this country, that's been a problem.
kgaddy wrote:
If you do not belive in God, the only reason you follow the laws of the land is fear, of jail time death, whatever.
And a lot of god believers do it to avoid the wrath of god, a long time in hell, or whatever other punishment awaits if they don't please the beast.
kgaddy wrote:
Don't be insulted so easy, there are a lot of people in the world who may disagree with you. Again, free thought.
A lot do and I figure if I'm not pissing a few people off, I'm not doing my job properly. There are too many people around that do think everyone has to agree with them. Everyone would be better off if they'd mind their own business and let others do the same. You guys want to play in the god sandbox, fine. Just don't expect others to be be happy when you try to call yourselves superior for it to push it on everyone else. The evolution of the human genome is too important to be left to chance.
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Bassam Abdul-Baki wrote:
when we condemn someone for something we think is wrong
I agree, and hope I haven't been guilty of condemning anyone in this thread. People can make changes for the better without God, sure. But living without God tends to lead to a godless life, and a godless life tends to degenerate into doing whatever you see fit. That is my opinion based on past experience. :)
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Goof around music jam with my brothers (with video) The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
Judah Himango wrote:
People can make changes for the better without God, sure. But living without God tends to lead to a godless life, and a godless life tends to degenerate into doing whatever you see fit.
That's a contradiction. :laugh:
Judah Himango wrote:
But living without God tends to lead to a godless life
That's a circular statement. :)
Judah Himango wrote:
a godless life tends to degenerate into doing whatever you see fit.
And finally, that's an assumption and interpretive in the sense that if they don't believe in your way, then they are godless. :)
"Religion - assurance in numbers." - Bassam Abdul-Baki Web - Blog - RSS - Math
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Judah Himango wrote:
People can make changes for the better without God, sure. But living without God tends to lead to a godless life, and a godless life tends to degenerate into doing whatever you see fit.
That's a contradiction. :laugh:
Judah Himango wrote:
But living without God tends to lead to a godless life
That's a circular statement. :)
Judah Himango wrote:
a godless life tends to degenerate into doing whatever you see fit.
And finally, that's an assumption and interpretive in the sense that if they don't believe in your way, then they are godless. :)
"Religion - assurance in numbers." - Bassam Abdul-Baki Web - Blog - RSS - Math
Bassam, here's what I'm saying: One can make an improvement in your own life regardless of one's faith. We can probably both agree on that. But a life without God (I'm speaking generally, not just my theology) degenerates into doing things your own way. So while your big human accomplishments may have improved your life (maybe you quit drinking, pornography, drugs, or some other vice), ultimately, your own way of living is going to degenerate back the do-it-my-way of living your life. That kind of life is a terrible life, where you ultimately become a slave to your own desires and addictions. It is circular; kind of ironic as well, that despite our best self-improvements, we ultimately fail and go back to being slaves to our desires to do evil.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Goof around music jam with my brothers (with video) The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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What about the Barbary Pirates 200 years ago? J+Kidnapping slaves and demanding ransom. THe reason given? Allah wills it against the infidels. Read what Jefferson did about that situation. My mom told me once that "while we all don't speak the same language, everyone in the world undestands an asskicking" -- modified at 11:03 Thursday 15th June, 2006
kgaddy wrote:
What about the Barbary Pirates 200 years ago?
What about the American privateers? Kidnapping slaves, stealing treasure, etc. There have been criminals throughout history, often doing it in the name of Jehovah, some in the name of Allah and some in the name of Jesus. That doesn't mean Jehovah, Allah or Jesus would approve.
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Bassam, here's what I'm saying: One can make an improvement in your own life regardless of one's faith. We can probably both agree on that. But a life without God (I'm speaking generally, not just my theology) degenerates into doing things your own way. So while your big human accomplishments may have improved your life (maybe you quit drinking, pornography, drugs, or some other vice), ultimately, your own way of living is going to degenerate back the do-it-my-way of living your life. That kind of life is a terrible life, where you ultimately become a slave to your own desires and addictions. It is circular; kind of ironic as well, that despite our best self-improvements, we ultimately fail and go back to being slaves to our desires to do evil.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Goof around music jam with my brothers (with video) The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
I agree with the jist of it, which is why I said that there had to be laws to protect one's self and his or her community. Religion isn't really necessary. A lot of atheists are good, well-behaved, well-mannered people. Besides, most of the important religious decrees are actually laws (i.e., killing, stealing). However, there is no verbally written religious degree about drugs or smoking since they were unaware of it at the time. Sure, people interpret what was written to mean that. What if someday somebody created a device that read people's mind and mentally abused them? The law would step in to say that's illegal and religion will try to interpret a line where they say it says it's bad. Cloning is another perfect example of religion vs. science. Religion leaves a lot more room for interpretation than the law does. P.S. - A little ;) for you and some ;P for her doesn't hurt. :laugh:
"Religion - assurance in numbers." - Bassam Abdul-Baki Web - Blog - RSS - Math
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jithAtran - ii wrote:
if we truely wants to put a fullstop to Islamic terrorism ,the fight agaist it should be started by Islams .
The thing is, others aren't willing to wait for that. I haven't heard of a single globally vocal group of Muslims that have been willing to take a stand against terrorism. And that is what millions of non-muslims don't understand, and frankly are a bit scared of. BW
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
-- Steven Wrightbrianwelsch wrote:
I haven't heard of a single globally vocal group of Muslims that have been willing to take a stand against terrorism.
There is no Muslim Pope to speak for all.
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I agree with all this. And I guess I'm trying to understand this with modern events.
Judah Himango wrote:
it's apparent he opted to forgive and welcome back with open arms, rather than condemn to hell.
But that is when they asked to be forgiven.In the meantime, does he expect all of us to close our eyes and take a sword to the head? I mean if that happens, all that believe in him are dead. I really do not mind living next to jews, muslims and everyone else for that matter. I just get upset with these terrorist, and when we try to defend ourselves, we end up being the racist ones. It makes no sense. We should be able to defend ourselves and still be good Christians, right? My mom told me once that "while we all don't speak the same language, everyone in the world undestands an asskicking"
kgaddy wrote:
We should be able to defend ourselves and still be good Christians, right?
There were some among Jesus' folowers who wanted to wage armed rebellion against the Romans. He refused. Jesus could have avoided crucifixion by staying away from Jerusalem. He did not. When asked what to do regarding our enemies, Jesus gave very specific instructions. His main point was that you are not judged on what your enemy does, you are judged on what you do.
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brianwelsch wrote:
I haven't heard of a single globally vocal group of Muslims that have been willing to take a stand against terrorism.
There is no Muslim Pope to speak for all.
That shouldn't stop them from forming organizations. BW
If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate.
-- Steven Wright -
brianwelsch wrote:
I haven't heard of a single globally vocal group of Muslims that have been willing to take a stand against terrorism.
There is no Muslim Pope to speak for all.
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kgaddy wrote:
We should be able to defend ourselves and still be good Christians, right?
There were some among Jesus' folowers who wanted to wage armed rebellion against the Romans. He refused. Jesus could have avoided crucifixion by staying away from Jerusalem. He did not. When asked what to do regarding our enemies, Jesus gave very specific instructions. His main point was that you are not judged on what your enemy does, you are judged on what you do.
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kgaddy wrote:
What about the Barbary Pirates 200 years ago?
What about the American privateers? Kidnapping slaves, stealing treasure, etc. There have been criminals throughout history, often doing it in the name of Jehovah, some in the name of Allah and some in the name of Jesus. That doesn't mean Jehovah, Allah or Jesus would approve.
Ed Gadziemski wrote:
What about the American privateers? Kidnapping slaves, stealing treasure, etc. There have been criminals throughout history, often doing it in the name of Jehovah, some in the name of Allah and some in the name of Jesus. That doesn't mean Jehovah, Allah or Jesus would approve.
all that is a little OT. You question was when did it all start. My suggestion is, with the US in Jefferson's Administration. My mom told me once that "while we all don't speak the same language, everyone in the world undestands an asskicking"
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I didn't advocate a world devoid of people loving one another. What I do say is that a reasonable world exists where most don't have to love everyone. A little mutual respect goes a lot farther than what I've seen of people running around mouthing platitudes about how they love everyone. The evolution of the human genome is too important to be left to chance.
Tim Craig wrote:
mouthing platitudes
If mouthing platitudes was all there is to this love stuff, I would agree with you.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Goof around music jam with my brothers (with video) The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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Ryan Roberts wrote:
and I don't think many believers do either
Very true what you say about living for others. I have trouble with it myself. It's very tough in practice; it takes a lot of humility, I can tell you that. It's tough, and I'm not very good at it yet. :) As for pornography, you know, it has nearly ruined my life on several occassions. Just be careful, my friend. Maybe it's not the same for all guys, but for me, it kept getting worse and worse with myself needing more and longer "highs" each time. Like an addictive drug, really. It truely has been a God-intervening-and-setting-things-straight that scooped me out of that mess. That's why I'm so crazy about God all the time, he's saved my life from me throwing it away. Now that I'm living a cleaner life and he set me up with so many good things, wow, it's like a fresh cool wind blowing into a hot house, God has cleared the air for me personally. Praise God for that, man! :)
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Goof around music jam with my brothers (with video) The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
Judah Himango wrote:
As for pornography, you know, it has nearly ruined my life on several occassions. Just be careful, my friend. Maybe it's not the same for all guys, but for me, it kept getting worse and worse with myself needing more and longer "highs" each time.
No offense Judah, but you are absolutely projecting your perception of yourself upon the atheists here. Just because you were unable to control yourself without God's help, does not mean that everyone who is an atheist is a self-destroying porn addict, or even a bad person at all. I'll stick to atheism because there's no reason to believe in any god until I see some evidence. And I don't really want to get into this conversation, I just wanted to make a note about your projection. Chris Richardson
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Christian Graus wrote:
Jesus respected the Law,
Yes he did and by law you mean OT?am I right?
Christian Graus wrote:
what was written as coming from Moses, was true and accurate.
ignore my lack of knowledge,if that is the case then why you say that OT is irrelevent for you.So many times when i referred OT ,you plainly rejected it by saying that its irrelevent.Contradictry statment of yours,isnt it?
Christian Graus wrote:
but you reject the New Testament ( or at a minimum, parts of it, I'm not trying to pick a fight OK ? ),
no you aint fighting and despite of difference I dont equate you with some christian extreemist. coming to your question.Well i am not scholar so my words might be misleading to you.What i meant to say that We as muslims are asked to accept the orignal torah and jesus' teachings which were in ancient languages not the modern bible like KJV etc which got introduced by Paul(i am correct?).I never said that we reject Torah and Bible completely,did i ever sound like that?if yes then might be my mistake tht i couldnt b elaborative or you misinterpeted me. there are occasions when muslims of that time went to jews and christians oldies of tht time for the confirmation of the events which were taken place before their own birth.I exactly dont know what were they but i think these would be about Noah,Joesph etc or some other civilzation who used to be there in ancient times.There isa verse in quran which i dont know exactly which orders us to accept things of torah or jesus teaching which wrre considered untemper by followers of christ and moses.I dont memorize those one of them was Trinity for sure because we believe tht God is one and He doesnt need any son at all.
Christian Graus wrote:
Gabriel comes to you and tells you what Jesus really said ? If not, what did you mean by this ?
To Muhammad(SAW).Gabriel(AS) had been coming since advent of Adam on earth and stopped comming after death of Muhammad(SAW).Tht is my belief Oh Fisticuffs, I Need Your Approval For I Am Misguided Without Your Awesome Insight Please Validate My Existence With You're Internet Powers By Pumpkinhead, Age 15 or something
Adnan Siddiqi wrote:
Yes he did and by law you mean OT?am I right?
Correct.
Adnan Siddiqi wrote:
why you say that OT is irrelevent for you.
I don't. I may have given that impression because in our discussion it seemed to me that Islam lives as if Jesus never came, and is bound by the law, but the point of Jesus coming was ( as He said ) not to do away with the law, but it WAS to fulfil it, and to make a path to God that was bound by rightouesness without being bound by law that is external to the body.
Adnan Siddiqi wrote:
So many times when i referred OT ,you plainly rejected it by saying that its irrelevent.Contradictry statment of yours,isnt it?
What I probably said was that the Law was given to Israel, at a specific point in time, and that under the New Testament, we no longer are required to ( for example ) perform animal sacrifice. The OT is relevant to me as it reveals the nature of God, but I don't live under the law as Moses and Jesus did. The NT says that it's not possible to be saved under the Law. It also states that Jesus is the only man to live a perfect life under the law. Jesus came so that instead of having a book of LAw, the Holy Spirit could write God's law in our hearts.
Adnan Siddiqi wrote:
not the modern bible like KJV etc which got introduced by Paul(i am correct?)
Paul wrote in the languages of his day. Am I right in thinking that you're saying you accept the first four books of the New Testament only ? I assume you don't accept Acts as it lays the foundation for the rest of Paul's writings being acceptable. Do you accept Luke ?
Adnan Siddiqi wrote:
I never said that we reject Torah and Bible completely,did i ever sound like that?
No, you told me when I quoted Jesus ( from the Gospels ) and Paul that these things were written later and were not really what Jesus said. Which is why I wonder how you know what Jesus actually did say ?
Adnan Siddiqi wrote:
I dont memorize those one of them was Trinity for sure because we believe tht God is one and He doesnt need any son at all.
The Trinity concept is not entirely in the Bible. But, Jesus claimed to be the Son of God. This is where I don't get how you can say yo
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Judah Himango wrote:
As for pornography, you know, it has nearly ruined my life on several occassions. Just be careful, my friend. Maybe it's not the same for all guys, but for me, it kept getting worse and worse with myself needing more and longer "highs" each time.
No offense Judah, but you are absolutely projecting your perception of yourself upon the atheists here. Just because you were unable to control yourself without God's help, does not mean that everyone who is an atheist is a self-destroying porn addict, or even a bad person at all. I'll stick to atheism because there's no reason to believe in any god until I see some evidence. And I don't really want to get into this conversation, I just wanted to make a note about your projection. Chris Richardson
I appreciate your civil tone. You say you don't want to get into the conversation...too late! ;) Forgive me if I was projecting my own experiences; sometimes real situations that hit home for a lot of people are a lot better examples than airy spiritual talk. And since someone said you can live a clean life without God, and I called them out on that, giving a real world situation as an example of where things start to get tricky.
Chris Richardson wrote:
I'll stick to atheism because there's no reason to believe in any god until I see some evidence.
Hey man, you're not the first. :)
Later a few scholars got on him. "Teacher, we want to see your credentials. Give us some hard evidence that God is in this. How about a miracle?" Jesus said, "You're looking for proof, but you're looking for the wrong kind. All you want is something to titillate your curiosity, satisfy your lust for miracles. The only proof you're going to get is what looks like the absence of proof.
And Paul says this, regarding the right kind of proof to look for,
But the basic reality of God is plain enough. Open your eyes and there it is! By taking a long and thoughtful look at what God has created, people have always been able to see what their eyes as such can't see: eternal power, for instance, and the mystery of his divine being.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Goof around music jam with my brothers (with video) The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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There are many groups. CAIR is one here in the US. My mom told me once that "while we all don't speak the same language, everyone in the world undestands an asskicking"
The Fiqh Council of North America released a fatwa, or Islamic religious ruling, against terrorism and extremism. The fatwa, "a religious edict," was endorsed by more than 120 U.S. Muslim groups, leaders and institutions. The fatwa states: "Islam strictly condemns religious extremism and the use of violence against innocent lives. There is no justification in Islam for extremism or terrorism. Targeting civilians' life and property through suicide bombings or any other method of attack is haram - or forbidden - and those who commit these barbaric acts are criminals, not 'martyrs.' "[^]
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Then he will have to judge me when I defend myself. My mom told me once that "while we all don't speak the same language, everyone in the world undestands an asskicking"
He will judge everyone on judgement day if you believe that sort of thing.