Is C# Making Devs Dumber (part two)
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Jeremy Falcon wrote:
We're gonna "innovate" ourselves out of high paying jobs in the future.
I hear that alot, but I'm not sure I really buy it. I mean, any fool can quickly pick up some books or read an online example of hello world, then call himself a programmer. But the real devs are the guys that understand algorithms, code flow, have problem solving skills, know how to build and maintain big projects, and so on. Those are things that are language-agnostic, and don't carry over to cearl-box programmers. :)
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Judah Himango wrote:
But the real devs are the guys that understand algorithms, code flow, have problem solving skills, know how to build and maintain big projects, and so on. Those are things that are language-agnostic, and don't carry over to cearl-box programmers.
True, but there are a lot of employers that don't know the difference, and I've seen more than on VB programmer that doesn't know enough about computers to be a good receptionist. Jeremy Falcon
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The fear of making software development too easy has been around since punch cards were the big splash. When OOP was new on the scene, the dev community was really concerned that "in five years from now, we'll all be about of jobs because of reusable code, polymorphism, etc.". But, what happened? As our tools become more powerful, the problems we are expected to solve grow in complexity. Now a simple data entry app talks to Web services, databases, saves/retrieves files over networks, etc. I don't think that our jobs will ever get easier, regardless of how much better our tools become. Imagine trying to create the data entry app I described above in assembly, or plain old C. You (not you in particular) would spend way too much time thinking about the bits and bytes to get the job done on time, unless you had a plush deadline :) Josh
I agree, but I do think there's a point where the tides will turn. We have not reached it, nor do I think we will anytime soon. But once AI becomes more developed and tools get better, I do think we will start to see this happening. Jeremy Falcon
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Some days ago I wrote about a new client I got, where I currently spend full-time developing in C++. I also made the statement that C# makes developers dumber. That made quite a few people upset ;) Unfortunately I did not have time to address all the replies, so I thought I would do it here, in a new post. One of the things I really love about C++ is pointers, and the way you can work with them. There are a lot of possible errors, but if you know what you are doing, C++ is seriously cool. C++ keeps me sharp (no pun intended) whereas C# wrap me in some sort of "secure wold" where I can relax in a way not possible in C++... Thats what I mean by "C# makes developers dumber"... - Anders My new photo website[^]
Totally agree! And of course, posts like this are the best proof for the concept! :laugh::laugh:
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Judah Himango wrote:
But the real devs are the guys that understand algorithms, code flow, have problem solving skills, know how to build and maintain big projects, and so on. Those are things that are language-agnostic, and don't carry over to cearl-box programmers.
True, but there are a lot of employers that don't know the difference, and I've seen more than on VB programmer that doesn't know enough about computers to be a good receptionist. Jeremy Falcon
By that measure, things in the future will be like it is today, with some good people getting hired and some bad people geting hired, given that managers don't always know the difference. What's more, when the poor developers fail and can't get anything done, or write really poor code, the project isn't going to look right to any manager. That's when they call in us good devs (maybe hired onboard or as consultants), charging exorbitant amounts of money for fixing that crap. :)
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Goof around music jam with my brothers (with video) The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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I agree, but I do think there's a point where the tides will turn. We have not reached it, nor do I think we will anytime soon. But once AI becomes more developed and tools get better, I do think we will start to see this happening. Jeremy Falcon
Once AI is sophisticated enough to put devs out of work, I think that we'll have more to worry about than changing careers. Ever seen Terminator 2? :suss: Josh
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C# allows dumb people to become programmers (just kidding) Cleek | Image Toolkits | Thumbnail maker
C++ allows programmers to become dumb people (just kidding)
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I agree, but I do think there's a point where the tides will turn. We have not reached it, nor do I think we will anytime soon. But once AI becomes more developed and tools get better, I do think we will start to see this happening. Jeremy Falcon
I agree there may be a point. For instance, imagine if the Star Trek holodeck were reality; where a computer can create immediately generate programs that far surpass anything a human could make in many years...then we'd be out of jobs. But I don't see AI becoming like that for many, many years. IMO, not in my lifetime.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Goof around music jam with my brothers (with video) The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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C# makes me a better developer of applications (functionality, usability, features etc.) C++ makes me a better coder. You get to choose what you want to be. The low level guy or the high level guy. We need them both. regards, Paul Watson Ireland FeedHenry needs you
eh, stop bugging me about it, give it a couple of days, see what happens.
Paul Watson wrote:
We need them both.
Yes, Got my 5. Bottom line is they are tools. The better developer is the one who uses the right tool for the task at hand. "Yes I know the voices are not real. But they have some pretty good ideas."
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Sort of yes. Over protection makes us dumber. Pets cannot survive in the wild.:cool: - It's easier to make than to correct a mistake.
It is considerably dumber to be out in the wild than to be a pet - recent Pixar animated features not withstanding. '--8<------------------------ Ex Datis: Duncan Jones Merrion Computing Ltd
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Judah Himango wrote:
saying that C++ is too high-level, too low on performance thanks to OO overhead, exceptions, etc.
True. However, I don't remember any of them saying that C++ is simpler and makes you "dumber". Heck, I was one of them - I would remember that :-D
My programming blahblahblah blog. If you ever find anything useful here, please let me know to remove it.
Really? I've read a lot of Linux devs saying they ought to build the kernel in C++ in order to make life easier for developers (with OO, exceptions, etc.) Linus has refused several times, citing the poor performance and overhead associated with exceptions.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Goof around music jam with my brothers (with video) The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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Roger J wrote:
but maybe its hard to notice such features when you are blinded by such an amazing aura of light
Exactly! When I was learning C#, I knew a really hardcore C++er. I'd show him some slick feature in C#/.NET and he would come back to me a few days later with 500 lines of code. "Look, you don't need C# to do that, you can just use this code instead." Yeah buddy, 1 line vs. 500 lines...hmmm....right. :-D Josh
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Really? I've read a lot of Linux devs saying they ought to build the kernel in C++ in order to make life easier for developers (with OO, exceptions, etc.) Linus has refused several times, citing the poor performance and overhead associated with exceptions.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Goof around music jam with my brothers (with video) The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
Judah Himango wrote:
I've read a lot of Linux devs saying they ought to build the kernel in C++ in order to make life easier for developers (with OO, exceptions, etc.)
I've read some nutcases asking for Linux rewritten in C++ so that they can draw UML diagrams :) Seriously, C++ does make your life easier once you learn it well. However, the learning curve is pretty steep compared to either C or C#.
Judah Himango wrote:
Linus has refused several times, citing the poor performance and overhead associated with exceptions.
Other reasons he cited were the complexity of C++ (compilers "inserting code behind your back") and the fact that all Unix system programmers know C, but few of them know C++.
My programming blahblahblah blog. If you ever find anything useful here, please let me know to remove it.
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By that measure, things in the future will be like it is today, with some good people getting hired and some bad people geting hired, given that managers don't always know the difference. What's more, when the poor developers fail and can't get anything done, or write really poor code, the project isn't going to look right to any manager. That's when they call in us good devs (maybe hired onboard or as consultants), charging exorbitant amounts of money for fixing that crap. :)
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Goof around music jam with my brothers (with video) The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
Judah Himango wrote:
charging exorbitant amounts of money for fixing that crap.
Enough to buy another box of cereal? :laugh: Jeremy Falcon
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Some days ago I wrote about a new client I got, where I currently spend full-time developing in C++. I also made the statement that C# makes developers dumber. That made quite a few people upset ;) Unfortunately I did not have time to address all the replies, so I thought I would do it here, in a new post. One of the things I really love about C++ is pointers, and the way you can work with them. There are a lot of possible errors, but if you know what you are doing, C++ is seriously cool. C++ keeps me sharp (no pun intended) whereas C# wrap me in some sort of "secure wold" where I can relax in a way not possible in C++... Thats what I mean by "C# makes developers dumber"... - Anders My new photo website[^]
Anders Molin wrote:
C# makes developers dumber
It appears that way but of course is not true. The developers make themselves dumber. If a developer does not do the work to learn about things like stack and heap, resources etc., then they don't know and are then "dumber". Go to the C++ forums and see how many people have not learned these same things! The language does not provide "knowledge". As a developer the responsibility is yours. "To learn or not to learn, that is the question." led mike - right here right now :)
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Some days ago I wrote about a new client I got, where I currently spend full-time developing in C++. I also made the statement that C# makes developers dumber. That made quite a few people upset ;) Unfortunately I did not have time to address all the replies, so I thought I would do it here, in a new post. One of the things I really love about C++ is pointers, and the way you can work with them. There are a lot of possible errors, but if you know what you are doing, C++ is seriously cool. C++ keeps me sharp (no pun intended) whereas C# wrap me in some sort of "secure wold" where I can relax in a way not possible in C++... Thats what I mean by "C# makes developers dumber"... - Anders My new photo website[^]
The fact that people (in this case a c++ programmer) constantly feel the need to tear others down (in this case c# programmers) continues to amaze me. Those who ARE smart (anyone who uses a tool to accomplish a given task well) don't need to bring others down. Those who CLAIM to be smart (c++ programmer) by showing that others are dumb is the one who in reality is _ _ _ _. A smart thing to do would be to come up with something more creative, original and useful to write about and discuss. How about writing an example of where and how using pointers in c++ is a better tool for a given situation. Then we can use our brains to discuss something that may actually be helpful. Sincerely, Programmer (period)
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Having come from a Visual Basic / VBA background, I'd say Java/C# has made me a lot smarter :D
Just the move has shown you're smarter than the average.
Formula 1 - Short for "F1 Racing" - named after the standard "help" key in Windows, it's a sport where participants desperately search through software help files trying to find actual documentation. It's tedious and somewhat cruel, most matches ending in a draw as no participant is able to find anything helpful. - Shog9
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Some days ago I wrote about a new client I got, where I currently spend full-time developing in C++. I also made the statement that C# makes developers dumber. That made quite a few people upset ;) Unfortunately I did not have time to address all the replies, so I thought I would do it here, in a new post. One of the things I really love about C++ is pointers, and the way you can work with them. There are a lot of possible errors, but if you know what you are doing, C++ is seriously cool. C++ keeps me sharp (no pun intended) whereas C# wrap me in some sort of "secure wold" where I can relax in a way not possible in C++... Thats what I mean by "C# makes developers dumber"... - Anders My new photo website[^]
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Judah Himango wrote:
charging exorbitant amounts of money for fixing that crap.
Enough to buy another box of cereal? :laugh: Jeremy Falcon
:)
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Goof around music jam with my brothers (with video) The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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The fact that people (in this case a c++ programmer) constantly feel the need to tear others down (in this case c# programmers) continues to amaze me. Those who ARE smart (anyone who uses a tool to accomplish a given task well) don't need to bring others down. Those who CLAIM to be smart (c++ programmer) by showing that others are dumb is the one who in reality is _ _ _ _. A smart thing to do would be to come up with something more creative, original and useful to write about and discuss. How about writing an example of where and how using pointers in c++ is a better tool for a given situation. Then we can use our brains to discuss something that may actually be helpful. Sincerely, Programmer (period)
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Some days ago I wrote about a new client I got, where I currently spend full-time developing in C++. I also made the statement that C# makes developers dumber. That made quite a few people upset ;) Unfortunately I did not have time to address all the replies, so I thought I would do it here, in a new post. One of the things I really love about C++ is pointers, and the way you can work with them. There are a lot of possible errors, but if you know what you are doing, C++ is seriously cool. C++ keeps me sharp (no pun intended) whereas C# wrap me in some sort of "secure wold" where I can relax in a way not possible in C++... Thats what I mean by "C# makes developers dumber"... - Anders My new photo website[^]
first let me put this in perspective, i work full time as a C++ and C programmer, about 70 / 30 split. i found time to read a book on C# 1 a while ago, and even wrote a couple of small programs in C#, so i have some limited experience of it. most of the time i find working in C *REALLY* frustrating, since i have to spend far to much of my time manipulating char * variables, building strings, checking buffer sizes, etc. oh i have all sorts of useful functions on hand, but it still takes extra effort and work to make sure you are doing it right. move to C++ and a proper string class (i get to use Qt) and suddenly i am free'd from all of this low level work! however there are times when it takes a LOT more code in C++ to do the string manipulation i want to do. these times are rare, and i can happily go for weeks without hitting one, but when i do, i have been known to take my lovely string class, turn it back into a char * and just use pointers to get the job done. which brings me, in a round about manor, to pointers. i have come to view pointers as the char * of the C++ world, in the sense that i seem to spend far more time than i should handling, checking, and double checking them. the Qt GUI framework seems (i have never done MFC programming, so cannot make an informed comparison) incredibly well designed and easy to use. it reminds me, in a general manor, of the forms classes in C# i briefly encountered. it is all build out of pointers to base classes, as you would imagine for C++. 99.9% of the time this is wonderful, easy, and stress free. but just now and then something goes horribly wrong with the pointers, due to someone not paying attention. due to years of practice, and quite a few hard lessons, i am VERY careful with my pointers, but not everyone is. so i see a lot of appeal to moving to a framework that makes as much of the "low level" work automatic as possible. when i am writing a program to decode EDIFACT, or to transform a set of databases from one form to a totally different form (they may overlap, if i am lucky, now and them *eeek*) then do i want to focus on allocating storage for my data, or on manipulating my data? if i use the power of Qt, or C++, or C#, or any other tool, to write basic programs with no depth, no complexity, and am not breaking new ground then i am not learning and growing. given enough time i may even become "dummer". but i could do exactly the same in C. i am clever, i can be stupid in any programming language if i feel the need! when