Is C# Making Devs Dumber (part two)
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I agree, but I do think there's a point where the tides will turn. We have not reached it, nor do I think we will anytime soon. But once AI becomes more developed and tools get better, I do think we will start to see this happening. Jeremy Falcon
I agree there may be a point. For instance, imagine if the Star Trek holodeck were reality; where a computer can create immediately generate programs that far surpass anything a human could make in many years...then we'd be out of jobs. But I don't see AI becoming like that for many, many years. IMO, not in my lifetime.
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C# makes me a better developer of applications (functionality, usability, features etc.) C++ makes me a better coder. You get to choose what you want to be. The low level guy or the high level guy. We need them both. regards, Paul Watson Ireland FeedHenry needs you
eh, stop bugging me about it, give it a couple of days, see what happens.
Paul Watson wrote:
We need them both.
Yes, Got my 5. Bottom line is they are tools. The better developer is the one who uses the right tool for the task at hand. "Yes I know the voices are not real. But they have some pretty good ideas."
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Sort of yes. Over protection makes us dumber. Pets cannot survive in the wild.:cool: - It's easier to make than to correct a mistake.
It is considerably dumber to be out in the wild than to be a pet - recent Pixar animated features not withstanding. '--8<------------------------ Ex Datis: Duncan Jones Merrion Computing Ltd
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Judah Himango wrote:
saying that C++ is too high-level, too low on performance thanks to OO overhead, exceptions, etc.
True. However, I don't remember any of them saying that C++ is simpler and makes you "dumber". Heck, I was one of them - I would remember that :-D
My programming blahblahblah blog. If you ever find anything useful here, please let me know to remove it.
Really? I've read a lot of Linux devs saying they ought to build the kernel in C++ in order to make life easier for developers (with OO, exceptions, etc.) Linus has refused several times, citing the poor performance and overhead associated with exceptions.
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Roger J wrote:
but maybe its hard to notice such features when you are blinded by such an amazing aura of light
Exactly! When I was learning C#, I knew a really hardcore C++er. I'd show him some slick feature in C#/.NET and he would come back to me a few days later with 500 lines of code. "Look, you don't need C# to do that, you can just use this code instead." Yeah buddy, 1 line vs. 500 lines...hmmm....right. :-D Josh
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Really? I've read a lot of Linux devs saying they ought to build the kernel in C++ in order to make life easier for developers (with OO, exceptions, etc.) Linus has refused several times, citing the poor performance and overhead associated with exceptions.
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Judah Himango wrote:
I've read a lot of Linux devs saying they ought to build the kernel in C++ in order to make life easier for developers (with OO, exceptions, etc.)
I've read some nutcases asking for Linux rewritten in C++ so that they can draw UML diagrams :) Seriously, C++ does make your life easier once you learn it well. However, the learning curve is pretty steep compared to either C or C#.
Judah Himango wrote:
Linus has refused several times, citing the poor performance and overhead associated with exceptions.
Other reasons he cited were the complexity of C++ (compilers "inserting code behind your back") and the fact that all Unix system programmers know C, but few of them know C++.
My programming blahblahblah blog. If you ever find anything useful here, please let me know to remove it.
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By that measure, things in the future will be like it is today, with some good people getting hired and some bad people geting hired, given that managers don't always know the difference. What's more, when the poor developers fail and can't get anything done, or write really poor code, the project isn't going to look right to any manager. That's when they call in us good devs (maybe hired onboard or as consultants), charging exorbitant amounts of money for fixing that crap. :)
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Judah Himango wrote:
charging exorbitant amounts of money for fixing that crap.
Enough to buy another box of cereal? :laugh: Jeremy Falcon
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Some days ago I wrote about a new client I got, where I currently spend full-time developing in C++. I also made the statement that C# makes developers dumber. That made quite a few people upset ;) Unfortunately I did not have time to address all the replies, so I thought I would do it here, in a new post. One of the things I really love about C++ is pointers, and the way you can work with them. There are a lot of possible errors, but if you know what you are doing, C++ is seriously cool. C++ keeps me sharp (no pun intended) whereas C# wrap me in some sort of "secure wold" where I can relax in a way not possible in C++... Thats what I mean by "C# makes developers dumber"... - Anders My new photo website[^]
Anders Molin wrote:
C# makes developers dumber
It appears that way but of course is not true. The developers make themselves dumber. If a developer does not do the work to learn about things like stack and heap, resources etc., then they don't know and are then "dumber". Go to the C++ forums and see how many people have not learned these same things! The language does not provide "knowledge". As a developer the responsibility is yours. "To learn or not to learn, that is the question." led mike - right here right now :)
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Some days ago I wrote about a new client I got, where I currently spend full-time developing in C++. I also made the statement that C# makes developers dumber. That made quite a few people upset ;) Unfortunately I did not have time to address all the replies, so I thought I would do it here, in a new post. One of the things I really love about C++ is pointers, and the way you can work with them. There are a lot of possible errors, but if you know what you are doing, C++ is seriously cool. C++ keeps me sharp (no pun intended) whereas C# wrap me in some sort of "secure wold" where I can relax in a way not possible in C++... Thats what I mean by "C# makes developers dumber"... - Anders My new photo website[^]
The fact that people (in this case a c++ programmer) constantly feel the need to tear others down (in this case c# programmers) continues to amaze me. Those who ARE smart (anyone who uses a tool to accomplish a given task well) don't need to bring others down. Those who CLAIM to be smart (c++ programmer) by showing that others are dumb is the one who in reality is _ _ _ _. A smart thing to do would be to come up with something more creative, original and useful to write about and discuss. How about writing an example of where and how using pointers in c++ is a better tool for a given situation. Then we can use our brains to discuss something that may actually be helpful. Sincerely, Programmer (period)
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Having come from a Visual Basic / VBA background, I'd say Java/C# has made me a lot smarter :D
Just the move has shown you're smarter than the average.
Formula 1 - Short for "F1 Racing" - named after the standard "help" key in Windows, it's a sport where participants desperately search through software help files trying to find actual documentation. It's tedious and somewhat cruel, most matches ending in a draw as no participant is able to find anything helpful. - Shog9
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Some days ago I wrote about a new client I got, where I currently spend full-time developing in C++. I also made the statement that C# makes developers dumber. That made quite a few people upset ;) Unfortunately I did not have time to address all the replies, so I thought I would do it here, in a new post. One of the things I really love about C++ is pointers, and the way you can work with them. There are a lot of possible errors, but if you know what you are doing, C++ is seriously cool. C++ keeps me sharp (no pun intended) whereas C# wrap me in some sort of "secure wold" where I can relax in a way not possible in C++... Thats what I mean by "C# makes developers dumber"... - Anders My new photo website[^]
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Judah Himango wrote:
charging exorbitant amounts of money for fixing that crap.
Enough to buy another box of cereal? :laugh: Jeremy Falcon
:)
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Goof around music jam with my brothers (with video) The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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The fact that people (in this case a c++ programmer) constantly feel the need to tear others down (in this case c# programmers) continues to amaze me. Those who ARE smart (anyone who uses a tool to accomplish a given task well) don't need to bring others down. Those who CLAIM to be smart (c++ programmer) by showing that others are dumb is the one who in reality is _ _ _ _. A smart thing to do would be to come up with something more creative, original and useful to write about and discuss. How about writing an example of where and how using pointers in c++ is a better tool for a given situation. Then we can use our brains to discuss something that may actually be helpful. Sincerely, Programmer (period)
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Some days ago I wrote about a new client I got, where I currently spend full-time developing in C++. I also made the statement that C# makes developers dumber. That made quite a few people upset ;) Unfortunately I did not have time to address all the replies, so I thought I would do it here, in a new post. One of the things I really love about C++ is pointers, and the way you can work with them. There are a lot of possible errors, but if you know what you are doing, C++ is seriously cool. C++ keeps me sharp (no pun intended) whereas C# wrap me in some sort of "secure wold" where I can relax in a way not possible in C++... Thats what I mean by "C# makes developers dumber"... - Anders My new photo website[^]
first let me put this in perspective, i work full time as a C++ and C programmer, about 70 / 30 split. i found time to read a book on C# 1 a while ago, and even wrote a couple of small programs in C#, so i have some limited experience of it. most of the time i find working in C *REALLY* frustrating, since i have to spend far to much of my time manipulating char * variables, building strings, checking buffer sizes, etc. oh i have all sorts of useful functions on hand, but it still takes extra effort and work to make sure you are doing it right. move to C++ and a proper string class (i get to use Qt) and suddenly i am free'd from all of this low level work! however there are times when it takes a LOT more code in C++ to do the string manipulation i want to do. these times are rare, and i can happily go for weeks without hitting one, but when i do, i have been known to take my lovely string class, turn it back into a char * and just use pointers to get the job done. which brings me, in a round about manor, to pointers. i have come to view pointers as the char * of the C++ world, in the sense that i seem to spend far more time than i should handling, checking, and double checking them. the Qt GUI framework seems (i have never done MFC programming, so cannot make an informed comparison) incredibly well designed and easy to use. it reminds me, in a general manor, of the forms classes in C# i briefly encountered. it is all build out of pointers to base classes, as you would imagine for C++. 99.9% of the time this is wonderful, easy, and stress free. but just now and then something goes horribly wrong with the pointers, due to someone not paying attention. due to years of practice, and quite a few hard lessons, i am VERY careful with my pointers, but not everyone is. so i see a lot of appeal to moving to a framework that makes as much of the "low level" work automatic as possible. when i am writing a program to decode EDIFACT, or to transform a set of databases from one form to a totally different form (they may overlap, if i am lucky, now and them *eeek*) then do i want to focus on allocating storage for my data, or on manipulating my data? if i use the power of Qt, or C++, or C#, or any other tool, to write basic programs with no depth, no complexity, and am not breaking new ground then i am not learning and growing. given enough time i may even become "dummer". but i could do exactly the same in C. i am clever, i can be stupid in any programming language if i feel the need! when
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Sometimes this board reminds me of a road construction crew, a few guys down in the trench doing the digging and 10 guys standing around discussing shovel technology.
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Josh Smith wrote:
Yeah buddy, 1 line vs. 500 lines...hmmm....right.
Yeah that's what happens when you compare PInvoke in C# to C++ code calling the same API, only in reverse of course. What is your point?
I wasn't referring to calling native APIs. I meant having things like delegates & events, automatic memory management, etc. Language/platform features. Josh -- modified at 13:27 Monday 19th June, 2006
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John Simmons / outlaw programmer wrote:
It's not about making it easy for programmers or convenient for users - it's about money for Microsoft.
Actually, the two are mutual: Microsoft wants it to be easy for programmers to develop apps for Windows, which in turn keeps more end users on Windows, which makes Microsoft more money. To say .NET shackles developers to Windows is nonsense; .NET is very portable (case in point, the Mono Project[^], far more so than, say, MFC.
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Judah Himango wrote:
.NET is very portable (case in point, the Mono Project[^],
You should read the soapbox...
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001 -
Some days ago I wrote about a new client I got, where I currently spend full-time developing in C++. I also made the statement that C# makes developers dumber. That made quite a few people upset ;) Unfortunately I did not have time to address all the replies, so I thought I would do it here, in a new post. One of the things I really love about C++ is pointers, and the way you can work with them. There are a lot of possible errors, but if you know what you are doing, C++ is seriously cool. C++ keeps me sharp (no pun intended) whereas C# wrap me in some sort of "secure wold" where I can relax in a way not possible in C++... Thats what I mean by "C# makes developers dumber"... - Anders My new photo website[^]
Imho, not having to worry about pointers (which isn't the same as "not having to know what pointers are and how memory management works") makes me a lot more productive, as do several other facets of C# (and Java). So much so that I've moved exclusively to C#/.NET, except when I have to maintain my C++/MFC freeware apps. Note, I'm not bashing C++/MFC (or non-.NET technologies). /ravi My new year's resolution: 2048 x 1536 Home | Music | Articles | Freeware | Trips ravib(at)ravib(dot)com
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No problem. Life might be somewhat harder but it would be a lot less stressful then a day at the office I'm sure. Plus what you would do in the wild would actually be productive in the sense that what you were doing would actually benefit you and your family... On the other side, I do like my A/C and I don't like being hot so I'll stick with comfort for now and rely on primitive living for when it just must be done. @the original author: C# isn't bad and neither is C++ but why use unsafe code if you can do the same thing in C# safely? If a problem arises that can't be handled in C# then by all means have fun and write some C++ or unsafe C# code. -Richard
Richard Parsons wrote:
C# isn't bad and neither is C++ but why use unsafe code if you can do the same thing in C# safely? If a problem arises that can't be handled in C# then by all means have fun and write some C++ or unsafe C# code.
Though, suppose they made cars that automatically steer away from hazards. Ie, you could drive this thing into a signpost and it would safely steer you back on the road instead of letting itself crash. After a few years of this, you're probably not going to worry as much about driving safely as if you did have these considerations to keep in mind - and frankly, dodging a signpost isn't something you need to put too much effort into doing if you're a decent driver.
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I'm thinking of more than just office days. How about the pursuit of science, expansion into space, time for spiritual matters and time to write a great book. Time to spend flying a kite with your kids because you don't have to spend 18 hours a day picking berries. I don't think hunter gatherer families were at all healthy. It was a crude, mean way of life. If a child got sick, she was left behind and died. We often romanticise past days thinking much of it was spent without the pressure of modern day life. We forget the pressures of basic living. As someone said; life back then was short and brutal. regards, Paul Watson Ireland FeedHenry needs you
eh, stop bugging me about it, give it a couple of days, see what happens.
-- modified at 10:12 Monday 19th June, 2006
Paul Watson wrote:
As someone said; life back then was short and brutal.
FWIW, Thomas Hobbes, in Leviathan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobbes[^] : Life in the state of nature is "solitary, poor, nasty, brutish, and short"