Our Litigious Society
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So your answer to my question is "yes" (you want a society in which someone who can't afford open heart surgery but needs it is left to die).
espeir wrote:
Poor people will also die in a car accident if they're driving a cheap unsafe car. Does that mean the burden should be on the state to buy them a Lincoln?
No, it doesn’t. In fact there are laws that say that a car must be roadworthy (and therefore safe) before it is allowed on the roads. If a person, rich or poor, drives an un-roadworthy vehicle on the roads they are breaking the law. The burden of enforcing these laws does indeed rest with the government. There is also the fact that lacking a car isn't terminal. Your argument is flawed.
espeir wrote:
The fact is that health care can be a priority in any American's life and anybody who gives a damn can afford it.
Rubbish. Steve
Stephen Hewitt wrote:
So your answer to my question is "yes" (you want a society in which someone who can't afford open heart surgery but needs it is left to die).
I didn't say that. I said anybody who actually wants to be able to afford heart surgery can. If you decide not to work and put your money in booze, cigarettes and drugs, then you don't deserve heart surgery. Insurance is about $70/month through an employer. ANYBODY in America can easily afford that. If you willingly opt out of that, then it's your own fault.
Stephen Hewitt wrote:
No, it doesn’t. In fact there are laws that say that a car must be roadworthy (and therefore safe) before it is allowed on the roads. If a person, rich or poor, drives an un-roadworthy vehicle on the roads they are breaking the law. The burden of enforcing these laws does indeed rest with the government.
Roadworthy does not mean safe and never has. If all you can afford is a Hyundai Elantra (one of the unsafest on American roads), then your chances of dying in an accident are greatly increased. What about the Yugo and Corvair? Remember those? They were "roadworthy" cars.
Stephen Hewitt wrote:
There is also the fact that lacking a car isn't terminal. Your argument is flawed.
Lacking a car most likely means lacking a job in most US cities. Our cities are built around the automobile. And suppose they walk to the bus stop...They probably need to cross a crosswalk or two, right? Is it therefore the burdern of the state to ensure that all crosswalks are elevated so that nobody is exposed to evil capitalist SUVs driving by? Certainly crossing a crosswalk can be terminal.
Stephen Hewitt wrote:
Rubbish
OK. For the record, it is your assertion that Americans cannot afford $70/month. That is the basis of your argument. That's 1.5% of the average per capita income (works out to be lower with family plans). Your argument is flawed.
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Stephen Hewitt wrote:
So your answer to my question is "yes" (you want a society in which someone who can't afford open heart surgery but needs it is left to die).
I didn't say that. I said anybody who actually wants to be able to afford heart surgery can. If you decide not to work and put your money in booze, cigarettes and drugs, then you don't deserve heart surgery. Insurance is about $70/month through an employer. ANYBODY in America can easily afford that. If you willingly opt out of that, then it's your own fault.
Stephen Hewitt wrote:
No, it doesn’t. In fact there are laws that say that a car must be roadworthy (and therefore safe) before it is allowed on the roads. If a person, rich or poor, drives an un-roadworthy vehicle on the roads they are breaking the law. The burden of enforcing these laws does indeed rest with the government.
Roadworthy does not mean safe and never has. If all you can afford is a Hyundai Elantra (one of the unsafest on American roads), then your chances of dying in an accident are greatly increased. What about the Yugo and Corvair? Remember those? They were "roadworthy" cars.
Stephen Hewitt wrote:
There is also the fact that lacking a car isn't terminal. Your argument is flawed.
Lacking a car most likely means lacking a job in most US cities. Our cities are built around the automobile. And suppose they walk to the bus stop...They probably need to cross a crosswalk or two, right? Is it therefore the burdern of the state to ensure that all crosswalks are elevated so that nobody is exposed to evil capitalist SUVs driving by? Certainly crossing a crosswalk can be terminal.
Stephen Hewitt wrote:
Rubbish
OK. For the record, it is your assertion that Americans cannot afford $70/month. That is the basis of your argument. That's 1.5% of the average per capita income (works out to be lower with family plans). Your argument is flawed.
In 2001 there were about 42.6 million people in the U.S. without health insurance. I'd wager that's its no lower today. That's lots of people to tell, "it's your own fault". The U.S. is the only developed country apart from South Africa that doesn't provide health care for all its citizens. It's not my argument which is flawed: it's your health care system. Steve
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In 2001 there were about 42.6 million people in the U.S. without health insurance. I'd wager that's its no lower today. That's lots of people to tell, "it's your own fault". The U.S. is the only developed country apart from South Africa that doesn't provide health care for all its citizens. It's not my argument which is flawed: it's your health care system. Steve
Ever think that maybe those people don't want health insurance? I've considered not getting it myself since I haven't seen a doctor or taken prescription medicine in over a decade. The only reason I get it is because it's cheap and tax-deductible. Still, over the past decade I've wasted about $10,000 on it. Compounded with stock market returns, that's $16,000. Since bypass surgery costs about $25,000 (according to Google), just the money I wasted on insurance almost covers the cost of that operation...and I'm nowhere close to being old enough to need it. It would probably be smarter if I just invested the money. So not only is your argument flawed, but the whole notion of the necessity of compulsory health care is flawed as well.
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What's the dispersal of one's personal responsibility TO the sate then? The International Centre for Prison Studies at King’s College London says that currently, there are 2,135,901 people incarcerated in the United States – placing the US way at the top of the world league tables, ahead of China, the Russian Federation and then Brazil. Nearly 10 per cent of America’s prison population are now serving life sentences, many of them with little chance of parole; 20 per cent have no chance of parole and know that they will leave prison only in a coffin.
When done universally, it's the exact same thing.
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What's the dispersal of one's personal responsibility TO the sate then? The International Centre for Prison Studies at King’s College London says that currently, there are 2,135,901 people incarcerated in the United States – placing the US way at the top of the world league tables, ahead of China, the Russian Federation and then Brazil. Nearly 10 per cent of America’s prison population are now serving life sentences, many of them with little chance of parole; 20 per cent have no chance of parole and know that they will leave prison only in a coffin.
Oh, I know. How 'bout if instead of incarcerating them, the US should just shoot them instead. That will be less costly in the long run and then they won't be at the head of the incarceration list. :dolt: Chris Meech I am Canadian. [heard in a local bar] When no one was looking, every single American woman between the ages of 18 and 32 went out and got a tatoo just above their rumpus. [link[^]]
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Ownership denotes responsibility. If you own an airplane and it crashes because of your negligence in maintaining it, that's your responsibility. If you own a food packaging company, and poisonous food is shipped, that's your responsibility. If you own an office building and you allow ice to build up at the entrance and somebody slips, that's your responsibility. If you own a car and it breaks down, it's your responsibility. If you disperse the ownership of your goods evenly across the state, you absolve responsibility and transfer it to the state.
and ... If you operate a social club for meeting other people that allows pedophiles to meet and lure victims and you do nothing to prevent that, it's you responsibility. :tag: Chris Meech I am Canadian. [heard in a local bar] When no one was looking, every single American woman between the ages of 18 and 32 went out and got a tatoo just above their rumpus. [link[^]]
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Jeremy Falcon wrote:
[edit] Oh man, this got a one-vote? Really, it's pathetic that some CPians are this stupid. [/edit]
I agree. We don't often agree but the point you make here seems obvious and it's hard to see why it would be oned. I've given 5 as compensation. Steve
Stephen Hewitt wrote:
I agree. We don't often agree
:laugh:
Stephen Hewitt wrote:
but the point you make here seems obvious and it's hard to see why it would be oned.
Sometimes it's just amazing the length the one-voters will go through. One of my posts said nothing but "Huh?" and it got down-voted too. Pretty sad.
Stephen Hewitt wrote:
I've given 5 as compensation.
Thanks. I've done that myself too, when I don't think the poster deserved it. Oh well, reckon I'll never quite understand some people. Jeremy Falcon
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A good point. I'm not sure why you got oned for this one. I've given a 5 to balance the books (my vote didn't have much effect). Steve
Stephen Hewitt wrote:
I've given a 5 to balance the books (my vote didn't have much effect).
It's the thought that counts. :-D Jeremy Falcon
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Ever think that maybe those people don't want health insurance? I've considered not getting it myself since I haven't seen a doctor or taken prescription medicine in over a decade. The only reason I get it is because it's cheap and tax-deductible. Still, over the past decade I've wasted about $10,000 on it. Compounded with stock market returns, that's $16,000. Since bypass surgery costs about $25,000 (according to Google), just the money I wasted on insurance almost covers the cost of that operation...and I'm nowhere close to being old enough to need it. It would probably be smarter if I just invested the money. So not only is your argument flawed, but the whole notion of the necessity of compulsory health care is flawed as well.
It's also about risk tolerance. Not everyone has a high one and they want the (usually fake) protection health insurance provides them. Jeremy Falcon
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David Wulff wrote:
Some people should not be licensed to breed.
Hitler thought so too. Nunc est bibendum
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David Wulff wrote:
Some people should not be licensed to breed.
Hitler thought so too. Nunc est bibendum
Hitler thought a lot of things. Congratulations on dragging Godwin's law in so quickly though.
Ðavid Wulff Die Freiheit spielt auf allen Geigen (video)
"If some individuals commit an act that is contrary to what their religion tells them to do, then the religion isn't violent... the individuals are." - espeir. -
Rob Graham wrote:
Appearently guns were ok anywhere else in the establishment...
Guns could fall out while you are dancing and accidently shoot someone. Shootings anywhere else in the establishment are deliberate.
And you are just as likely to trip on one and fall to your death from a broken neck. I've seen better runs in my shorts! - Patches O'Houlihan
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Jeremy Falcon wrote:
I don't think makes someone a bad person, anti-social maybe but not neccasirly bad.
Well, that would make me anti social, b/c if my wife left me, and I wanted to start dating, I'd probably start online. Hell, I live online. My point tho is that when my daughter is 14, I will be VERY closed minded about stuff like this, I'd tend to fear the worst rather than let her take risks I would take myself. She was *14*, that's really my core point here.
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
It's digusting IMO.
I agree, although the word I would use is 'sad'. It's sad that they can't see that they didn't take sensible precautions themselves, and that they think a pile of money will help them get through this. It won't, it will increase their tendency to blame others and feel sorry for themselveS ( not that it's not tragic, but it's also not the fault of the web site ). Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
Christian Graus wrote:
My point tho is that when my daughter is 14, I will be VERY closed minded about stuff like this, I'd tend to fear the worst rather than let her take risks I would take myself.
And for all the worrying and closed mindedness, you don't have 100% control over your daughter 24 hours a day. And if you did try to control her 24 hours a day, every day until she's an adult, then the CPS, the ACLU and it's cronies, etc would accuse you of child abuse. The best you can hope for is to teach your child right from wrong by example and then hope that the lessons take root and bear fruit. My sister has two teenaged daughters who were taught by example from birth and they STILL do very stupid things (like drinking and driving) so really all you have is hope that your kids will survive unscathed into adulthood, and even then you'll still worry until the day you die. BTW, I have 21 year old daughter who travels the world and is currently enaged to an Egyptian muslim who lives in Cairo. Trust me when I say that I have reservations about this, mostly because I'm her father, and the rest because she's going to live in Cairo with him when they get married in March, which for the more radical minded makes her a target regardless of who she's married to, so I really do feel your pain and fear. Mike Poz
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Jeremy Falcon wrote:
I don't think makes someone a bad person, anti-social maybe but not neccasirly bad.
Well, that would make me anti social, b/c if my wife left me, and I wanted to start dating, I'd probably start online. Hell, I live online. My point tho is that when my daughter is 14, I will be VERY closed minded about stuff like this, I'd tend to fear the worst rather than let her take risks I would take myself. She was *14*, that's really my core point here.
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
It's digusting IMO.
I agree, although the word I would use is 'sad'. It's sad that they can't see that they didn't take sensible precautions themselves, and that they think a pile of money will help them get through this. It won't, it will increase their tendency to blame others and feel sorry for themselveS ( not that it's not tragic, but it's also not the fault of the web site ). Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
Christian Graus wrote:
My point tho is that when my daughter is 14, I will be VERY closed minded about stuff like this, I'd tend to fear the worst rather than let her take risks I would take myself.
And for all the worrying and closed mindedness, you don't have 100% control over your daughter 24 hours a day. And if you did try to control her 24 hours a day, every day until she's an adult, then the CPS, the ACLU and it's cronies, etc would accuse you of child abuse. The best you can hope for is to teach your child right from wrong by example and then hope that the lessons take root and bear fruit. My sister has two teenaged daughters who were taught by example from birth and they STILL do very stupid things (like drinking and driving) so really all you have is hope that your kids will survive unscathed into adulthood, and even then you'll still worry until the day you die. BTW, I have 21 year old daughter who travels the world and is currently enaged to an Egyptian muslim who lives in Cairo. Trust me when I say that I have reservations about this, mostly because I'm her father, and the rest because she's going to live in Cairo with him when they get married in March, which for the more radical minded makes her a target regardless of who she's married to. Mike Poz
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Mike Mullikin wrote:
Nobody feels responsible for themselves.
You say it's not a conservative thing, but isn't that the definition of socialism?
No, socialism means someone else thinks he has to make all decisions for you.
Some of us walk the memory lane, others plummet into a rabbit hole
Tree in C# || Fold With Us! || sighist -
Ray Cassick wrote:
Yeah, no one wants to take responsibility for thier own actions anymore.
Who is John Galt?
"Why don't you tie a kerosene-soaked rag around your ankles so the ants won't climb up and eat your candy ass..." - Dale Earnhardt, 1997
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"...the staggering layers of obscenity in your statement make it a work of art on so many levels." - Jason Jystad, 10/26/2001A beacon of normality, that A.R. tried to idolize by making everybody else look worse.
Some of us walk the memory lane, others plummet into a rabbit hole
Tree in C# || Fold With Us! || sighist -
The most likely culprit in any child sexual abuse case is the stepfather, closely followed by the father, then the rest of the family. Ryan
"Michael Moore and Mel Gibson are the same person, except for a few sit-ups. Moore thought his cheesy political blooper reel was going to tell people how to vote. Mel thought that his little gay SM movie about his imaginary friend was going to help him get to heaven." - Penn Jillette
It takes a thorough understanding of statistics to not misunderstand that simplification.
Some of us walk the memory lane, others plummet into a rabbit hole
Tree in C# || Fold With Us! || sighist -
Christian Graus wrote:
My point tho is that when my daughter is 14, I will be VERY closed minded about stuff like this, I'd tend to fear the worst rather than let her take risks I would take myself.
And for all the worrying and closed mindedness, you don't have 100% control over your daughter 24 hours a day. And if you did try to control her 24 hours a day, every day until she's an adult, then the CPS, the ACLU and it's cronies, etc would accuse you of child abuse. The best you can hope for is to teach your child right from wrong by example and then hope that the lessons take root and bear fruit. My sister has two teenaged daughters who were taught by example from birth and they STILL do very stupid things (like drinking and driving) so really all you have is hope that your kids will survive unscathed into adulthood, and even then you'll still worry until the day you die. BTW, I have 21 year old daughter who travels the world and is currently enaged to an Egyptian muslim who lives in Cairo. Trust me when I say that I have reservations about this, mostly because I'm her father, and the rest because she's going to live in Cairo with him when they get married in March, which for the more radical minded makes her a target regardless of who she's married to, so I really do feel your pain and fear. Mike Poz
Mike Poz wrote:
every day until she's an adult, then the CPS, the ACLU and it's cronies, etc would accuse you of child abuse.
14 is not an adult. If anyone wants to tell me that I can't tell my daughter who she can date at 14, they can well and truly get stuffed.
Mike Poz wrote:
The best you can hope for is to teach your child right from wrong by example and then hope that the lessons take root and bear fruit.
Yes, I agree that teaching her to think for herself is what matters, not outright control. But at 14, I would still take part in decisions like who she talks to online and certainly whose car she gets into.
Mike Poz wrote:
they STILL do very stupid things (like drinking and driving)
I'm sure she will do stupid things, and letting her do some is part of helping her to grow into an adult. But not when it could endanger her life. Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
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It's also about risk tolerance. Not everyone has a high one and they want the (usually fake) protection health insurance provides them. Jeremy Falcon
I'll never understand people who are of the opinion that universal health care isn't desirable for a society. You say that, “...the (usually fake) protection health insurance provides...”; now you’re implying that health insurance doesn’t even work. This seems to be an argument on my side: that the U.S. health care system is “sick”. Steve
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Ever think that maybe those people don't want health insurance? I've considered not getting it myself since I haven't seen a doctor or taken prescription medicine in over a decade. The only reason I get it is because it's cheap and tax-deductible. Still, over the past decade I've wasted about $10,000 on it. Compounded with stock market returns, that's $16,000. Since bypass surgery costs about $25,000 (according to Google), just the money I wasted on insurance almost covers the cost of that operation...and I'm nowhere close to being old enough to need it. It would probably be smarter if I just invested the money. So not only is your argument flawed, but the whole notion of the necessity of compulsory health care is flawed as well.
espeir wrote:
Ever think that maybe those people don't want health insurance?
I know they'll almost certainly want their heart fixed if it develops a problem. It's no good telling me that health insurance is too expensive: if I was in charge health care would be free and universally accessible (not for cosmetic surgery and such). Steve
