What would you say if.... [modified]
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... your kid told you they wanted to become a developer. What would you tell them they should learn? 1) C++. I'm started with vb 3 and have moved to c# and vb.net but I have always wished I learned a lower level language. I did a bunch of ANSI C on a unix system in school but that is the last place I've seen it. I think you are more competitive though in the market place if you know c++ simply because you can do more then take data out of a database and put it back in (probably the majority of projects .net is used for although I'm sure some people will list out some notable exceptions). 2) Patience. If you don't like to spend 8 hours a day trying to figure something out, your in the wrong business. -- modified at 20:00 Sunday 6th August, 2006
E=mc2 -> BOOM
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... your kid told you they wanted to become a developer. What would you tell them they should learn? 1) C++. I'm started with vb 3 and have moved to c# and vb.net but I have always wished I learned a lower level language. I did a bunch of ANSI C on a unix system in school but that is the last place I've seen it. I think you are more competitive though in the market place if you know c++ simply because you can do more then take data out of a database and put it back in (probably the majority of projects .net is used for although I'm sure some people will list out some notable exceptions). 2) Patience. If you don't like to spend 8 hours a day trying to figure something out, your in the wrong business. -- modified at 20:00 Sunday 6th August, 2006
E=mc2 -> BOOM
Download C# express, send them here[^]. And help them download and modify 1 program. That should kick start them... Ho, and forgot about C++! That is, unless you are a sadistic dad ;P (To convince yourself about that, try to buy a book which shows the code of a graphics Video Game. You have the choice between the 1567 pages C++ "hangman" or the 134 pages C# "Attack From outer Space book", which one will you choose?)
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Download C# express, send them here[^]. And help them download and modify 1 program. That should kick start them... Ho, and forgot about C++! That is, unless you are a sadistic dad ;P (To convince yourself about that, try to buy a book which shows the code of a graphics Video Game. You have the choice between the 1567 pages C++ "hangman" or the 134 pages C# "Attack From outer Space book", which one will you choose?)
Super Lloyd wrote:
You have the choice between the 1567 pages C++ "hangman" or the 134 pages C# "Attack From outer Space book", which one will you choose?)
That is a bit of an exaggeration. I'd expect the C++ code to look roughly the same size, for the same game. It would just run faster.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
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... your kid told you they wanted to become a developer. What would you tell them they should learn? 1) C++. I'm started with vb 3 and have moved to c# and vb.net but I have always wished I learned a lower level language. I did a bunch of ANSI C on a unix system in school but that is the last place I've seen it. I think you are more competitive though in the market place if you know c++ simply because you can do more then take data out of a database and put it back in (probably the majority of projects .net is used for although I'm sure some people will list out some notable exceptions). 2) Patience. If you don't like to spend 8 hours a day trying to figure something out, your in the wrong business. -- modified at 20:00 Sunday 6th August, 2006
E=mc2 -> BOOM
Albert Einstein. wrote:
What would you tell them they should learn?
Patience is a good one. Not because of the problem you have to figure out, but because of the idiots you have to work with and for. ;P Otherwise: 1) How to think. 2) How to listen. 3) How to communicate. Marc
Some people believe what the bible says. Literally. At least [with Wikipedia] you have the chance to correct the wiki -- Jörgen Sigvardsson
People are just notoriously impossible. --DavidCrow
There's NO excuse for not commenting your code. -- John Simmons / outlaw programmer -
Super Lloyd wrote:
You have the choice between the 1567 pages C++ "hangman" or the 134 pages C# "Attack From outer Space book", which one will you choose?)
That is a bit of an exaggeration. I'd expect the C++ code to look roughly the same size, for the same game. It would just run faster.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
Well that's my experience with C++ between 1998 to 2002. I bought a few C++ book, I read them. Very long and arduous for little result except for "amazingly efficient collection using multi-heritance" right after page 345. BTW, is there a book on STL? I had to learn tidbit from the net.... Then cames .NET (and Java). Start from nothing, learn the syntax in 50 pages, build a nice, multithreaded, GUI application in the next 100 pages.... (all in just under 21 days, of course ;P)
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... your kid told you they wanted to become a developer. What would you tell them they should learn? 1) C++. I'm started with vb 3 and have moved to c# and vb.net but I have always wished I learned a lower level language. I did a bunch of ANSI C on a unix system in school but that is the last place I've seen it. I think you are more competitive though in the market place if you know c++ simply because you can do more then take data out of a database and put it back in (probably the majority of projects .net is used for although I'm sure some people will list out some notable exceptions). 2) Patience. If you don't like to spend 8 hours a day trying to figure something out, your in the wrong business. -- modified at 20:00 Sunday 6th August, 2006
E=mc2 -> BOOM
Albert Einstein. wrote:
What would you tell them they should learn?
Hindi or Mandarin
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Well that's my experience with C++ between 1998 to 2002. I bought a few C++ book, I read them. Very long and arduous for little result except for "amazingly efficient collection using multi-heritance" right after page 345. BTW, is there a book on STL? I had to learn tidbit from the net.... Then cames .NET (and Java). Start from nothing, learn the syntax in 50 pages, build a nice, multithreaded, GUI application in the next 100 pages.... (all in just under 21 days, of course ;P)
I really didn't mean for this to become a debate on which language is better. But you must admit that c++ is a lower level language. You also must admit that most games are programed in c++.
E=mc2 -> BOOM
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Albert Einstein. wrote:
What would you tell them they should learn?
Hindi or Mandarin
Mandarian perhaps but not Hindi (although your point is well taken). I would imagine that in 10 years the salary gap between India and here will be too close to justify the benefit of going to Inida. I deal with this on a day to day basis and dealing with the logistics (11.5 hour time difference) is difficult enough. Things are changing rapidly in India and I would imagin that equilibrium will be reached in the next decade.
E=mc2 -> BOOM
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Albert Einstein. wrote:
What would you tell them they should learn?
Patience is a good one. Not because of the problem you have to figure out, but because of the idiots you have to work with and for. ;P Otherwise: 1) How to think. 2) How to listen. 3) How to communicate. Marc
Some people believe what the bible says. Literally. At least [with Wikipedia] you have the chance to correct the wiki -- Jörgen Sigvardsson
People are just notoriously impossible. --DavidCrow
There's NO excuse for not commenting your code. -- John Simmons / outlaw programmerAlbert, Do they want to be a developer or a coder. Not the same thing in my book. Now probably early for you son to be worried, other than the fact there is a difference.
Marc Clifton wrote:
- How to listen. 3) How to communicate.
Absolutely agree. A developer has to be able to listen to the customer and it is the developers responsibility to document what was heard. Make a diagram of what is needed. Use case scenario, business process (data flows), etc. and then verify with the customer he was understood. Now as I said earlier, probably early for him to start here. but it should be understood in the real world this is the first part of the task. The fun coding comes next.
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Well that's my experience with C++ between 1998 to 2002. I bought a few C++ book, I read them. Very long and arduous for little result except for "amazingly efficient collection using multi-heritance" right after page 345. BTW, is there a book on STL? I had to learn tidbit from the net.... Then cames .NET (and Java). Start from nothing, learn the syntax in 50 pages, build a nice, multithreaded, GUI application in the next 100 pages.... (all in just under 21 days, of course ;P)
Sure - there is some plumbing stuff that requires more code in C++. But, that plumbing stuff is not a great percentage of hte code that goes into an app. Therefore, the overall line count would still be similar.
Super Lloyd wrote:
BTW, is there a book on STL?
There are tons of good books on STL. Addison Wesley have a couple of great ones, including 'Generic programming and the STL', I can't see the other one in my pile of books to tell you the title.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
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Mandarian perhaps but not Hindi (although your point is well taken). I would imagine that in 10 years the salary gap between India and here will be too close to justify the benefit of going to Inida. I deal with this on a day to day basis and dealing with the logistics (11.5 hour time difference) is difficult enough. Things are changing rapidly in India and I would imagin that equilibrium will be reached in the next decade.
E=mc2 -> BOOM
Albert Einstein. wrote:
dealing with the logistics (11.5 hour time difference) is difficult enough
The time difference I deal with every day is similar. Do you think it's the time difference and not language that's the problem ? I find it pretty easy to manage, although I get up early so we have a couple of hours of crossover work time. I guess 11.5 hours is a gap that would not allow for that, really. Getting on the phone or MSN is essential, email is no substitute.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
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I really didn't mean for this to become a debate on which language is better. But you must admit that c++ is a lower level language. You also must admit that most games are programed in c++.
E=mc2 -> BOOM
Where did I say that one language was better than the other?!? :confused: I just said that C++ was not something to get quick visual results! As far as I know even C++ programmer are first to say that C++ is not the quickest to program! (which is the infamous VB). They even say that C++ is not for the weak minded (i.e. it's as difficult as only a C++ programmer could do it) They just say they have the quickest programs, which is very different!
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Albert Einstein. wrote:
dealing with the logistics (11.5 hour time difference) is difficult enough
The time difference I deal with every day is similar. Do you think it's the time difference and not language that's the problem ? I find it pretty easy to manage, although I get up early so we have a couple of hours of crossover work time. I guess 11.5 hours is a gap that would not allow for that, really. Getting on the phone or MSN is essential, email is no substitute.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
Gernally people in India speak english but you have to fight through the accent sometimes. Also they will never say no to you if you ask them to do something. That does not mean it will actually happen (my experiance only so please don't take this as a generalization). But the smallest thing takes at least 2 days. Day 1 is figuring out you have an issue and communicate it either in an email or in a 9 pm phone call. In the morning you will see an email with some questions about the issue. You answer it. They have gone home by then so they will see it and do something with it while you are sleeping. The only way I have ever seen this work well is someone must become nocturnal (usually them) or the US manager move to India.
E=mc2 -> BOOM
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... your kid told you they wanted to become a developer. What would you tell them they should learn? 1) C++. I'm started with vb 3 and have moved to c# and vb.net but I have always wished I learned a lower level language. I did a bunch of ANSI C on a unix system in school but that is the last place I've seen it. I think you are more competitive though in the market place if you know c++ simply because you can do more then take data out of a database and put it back in (probably the majority of projects .net is used for although I'm sure some people will list out some notable exceptions). 2) Patience. If you don't like to spend 8 hours a day trying to figure something out, your in the wrong business. -- modified at 20:00 Sunday 6th August, 2006
E=mc2 -> BOOM
Albert Einstein. wrote:
What would you tell them they should learn?
Not to follow their father's footsteps.:|
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Sure - there is some plumbing stuff that requires more code in C++. But, that plumbing stuff is not a great percentage of hte code that goes into an app. Therefore, the overall line count would still be similar.
Super Lloyd wrote:
BTW, is there a book on STL?
There are tons of good books on STL. Addison Wesley have a couple of great ones, including 'Generic programming and the STL', I can't see the other one in my pile of books to tell you the title.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
Christian Graus wrote:
Sure - there is some plumbing stuff that requires more code in C++. But, that plumbing stuff is not a great percentage of hte code that goes into an app. Therefore, the overall line count would still be similar.
Yep. But this plumbing requires lot of thinking and learning. Now perhaps I'm wrong but as a kid I would rather swap this plumbing if I could. At least for my 1st program. Sure enough I might want to learn it for the 3rd, or 4th program... But it's not something to consider for the 1st program, IMHO...
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... your kid told you they wanted to become a developer. What would you tell them they should learn? 1) C++. I'm started with vb 3 and have moved to c# and vb.net but I have always wished I learned a lower level language. I did a bunch of ANSI C on a unix system in school but that is the last place I've seen it. I think you are more competitive though in the market place if you know c++ simply because you can do more then take data out of a database and put it back in (probably the majority of projects .net is used for although I'm sure some people will list out some notable exceptions). 2) Patience. If you don't like to spend 8 hours a day trying to figure something out, your in the wrong business. -- modified at 20:00 Sunday 6th August, 2006
E=mc2 -> BOOM
Albert Einstein. wrote:
What would you tell them they should learn?
It depends on what the kid would like to do with it I'd say. If he wants to make games teach him Java and if he wants to make web pages teach him ASM. :rolleyes:
Jeremy Falcon
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... your kid told you they wanted to become a developer. What would you tell them they should learn? 1) C++. I'm started with vb 3 and have moved to c# and vb.net but I have always wished I learned a lower level language. I did a bunch of ANSI C on a unix system in school but that is the last place I've seen it. I think you are more competitive though in the market place if you know c++ simply because you can do more then take data out of a database and put it back in (probably the majority of projects .net is used for although I'm sure some people will list out some notable exceptions). 2) Patience. If you don't like to spend 8 hours a day trying to figure something out, your in the wrong business. -- modified at 20:00 Sunday 6th August, 2006
E=mc2 -> BOOM
I would say "learn a language, but don't dedicate yourself to that language". Languages and technologies change, it doesn't matter what language you choose, C# or C++ or another, just don't bet your whole concept of the world on the success of that language. When you have mastered that language, pick another and master it too, if only to prove you are not bound by faith to one and only one language and technology. Learn to adapt, learn to change, like the water that runs from the hill to the ocean, seemingly bending around every obstacle, seemingly held by others, seemingly directed by others... but ever faithful to a goal, your goal. Bend but do not break, press but do not demand, the water always wins with patience. The secret between success and misery in programming is as you said: patience. -- modified at 21:36 Sunday 6th August, 2006
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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Where did I say that one language was better than the other?!? :confused: I just said that C++ was not something to get quick visual results! As far as I know even C++ programmer are first to say that C++ is not the quickest to program! (which is the infamous VB). They even say that C++ is not for the weak minded (i.e. it's as difficult as only a C++ programmer could do it) They just say they have the quickest programs, which is very different!
Super Lloyd wrote:
I just said that C++ was not something to get quick visual results!
Agreed.
E=mc2 -> BOOM
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Albert Einstein. wrote:
What would you tell them they should learn?
Not to follow their father's footsteps.:|
lol
E=mc2 -> BOOM
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I would say "learn a language, but don't dedicate yourself to that language". Languages and technologies change, it doesn't matter what language you choose, C# or C++ or another, just don't bet your whole concept of the world on the success of that language. When you have mastered that language, pick another and master it too, if only to prove you are not bound by faith to one and only one language and technology. Learn to adapt, learn to change, like the water that runs from the hill to the ocean, seemingly bending around every obstacle, seemingly held by others, seemingly directed by others... but ever faithful to a goal, your goal. Bend but do not break, press but do not demand, the water always wins with patience. The secret between success and misery in programming is as you said: patience. -- modified at 21:36 Sunday 6th August, 2006
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
I would say "learn a language, but don't dedicate yourself to that language".
Best point yet. Learn programming concepts like OOP and the like but don't be bound to a launguage. To your point, my dad was a fortran/cobal guy when he was in school although he is not a developer now. Not a lot of fortran/cobal going on these days.
E=mc2 -> BOOM