What would you say if.... [modified]
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Well that's my experience with C++ between 1998 to 2002. I bought a few C++ book, I read them. Very long and arduous for little result except for "amazingly efficient collection using multi-heritance" right after page 345. BTW, is there a book on STL? I had to learn tidbit from the net.... Then cames .NET (and Java). Start from nothing, learn the syntax in 50 pages, build a nice, multithreaded, GUI application in the next 100 pages.... (all in just under 21 days, of course ;P)
I really didn't mean for this to become a debate on which language is better. But you must admit that c++ is a lower level language. You also must admit that most games are programed in c++.
E=mc2 -> BOOM
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Albert Einstein. wrote:
What would you tell them they should learn?
Hindi or Mandarin
Mandarian perhaps but not Hindi (although your point is well taken). I would imagine that in 10 years the salary gap between India and here will be too close to justify the benefit of going to Inida. I deal with this on a day to day basis and dealing with the logistics (11.5 hour time difference) is difficult enough. Things are changing rapidly in India and I would imagin that equilibrium will be reached in the next decade.
E=mc2 -> BOOM
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Albert Einstein. wrote:
What would you tell them they should learn?
Patience is a good one. Not because of the problem you have to figure out, but because of the idiots you have to work with and for. ;P Otherwise: 1) How to think. 2) How to listen. 3) How to communicate. Marc
Some people believe what the bible says. Literally. At least [with Wikipedia] you have the chance to correct the wiki -- Jörgen Sigvardsson
People are just notoriously impossible. --DavidCrow
There's NO excuse for not commenting your code. -- John Simmons / outlaw programmerAlbert, Do they want to be a developer or a coder. Not the same thing in my book. Now probably early for you son to be worried, other than the fact there is a difference.
Marc Clifton wrote:
- How to listen. 3) How to communicate.
Absolutely agree. A developer has to be able to listen to the customer and it is the developers responsibility to document what was heard. Make a diagram of what is needed. Use case scenario, business process (data flows), etc. and then verify with the customer he was understood. Now as I said earlier, probably early for him to start here. but it should be understood in the real world this is the first part of the task. The fun coding comes next.
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Well that's my experience with C++ between 1998 to 2002. I bought a few C++ book, I read them. Very long and arduous for little result except for "amazingly efficient collection using multi-heritance" right after page 345. BTW, is there a book on STL? I had to learn tidbit from the net.... Then cames .NET (and Java). Start from nothing, learn the syntax in 50 pages, build a nice, multithreaded, GUI application in the next 100 pages.... (all in just under 21 days, of course ;P)
Sure - there is some plumbing stuff that requires more code in C++. But, that plumbing stuff is not a great percentage of hte code that goes into an app. Therefore, the overall line count would still be similar.
Super Lloyd wrote:
BTW, is there a book on STL?
There are tons of good books on STL. Addison Wesley have a couple of great ones, including 'Generic programming and the STL', I can't see the other one in my pile of books to tell you the title.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
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Mandarian perhaps but not Hindi (although your point is well taken). I would imagine that in 10 years the salary gap between India and here will be too close to justify the benefit of going to Inida. I deal with this on a day to day basis and dealing with the logistics (11.5 hour time difference) is difficult enough. Things are changing rapidly in India and I would imagin that equilibrium will be reached in the next decade.
E=mc2 -> BOOM
Albert Einstein. wrote:
dealing with the logistics (11.5 hour time difference) is difficult enough
The time difference I deal with every day is similar. Do you think it's the time difference and not language that's the problem ? I find it pretty easy to manage, although I get up early so we have a couple of hours of crossover work time. I guess 11.5 hours is a gap that would not allow for that, really. Getting on the phone or MSN is essential, email is no substitute.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
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I really didn't mean for this to become a debate on which language is better. But you must admit that c++ is a lower level language. You also must admit that most games are programed in c++.
E=mc2 -> BOOM
Where did I say that one language was better than the other?!? :confused: I just said that C++ was not something to get quick visual results! As far as I know even C++ programmer are first to say that C++ is not the quickest to program! (which is the infamous VB). They even say that C++ is not for the weak minded (i.e. it's as difficult as only a C++ programmer could do it) They just say they have the quickest programs, which is very different!
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Albert Einstein. wrote:
dealing with the logistics (11.5 hour time difference) is difficult enough
The time difference I deal with every day is similar. Do you think it's the time difference and not language that's the problem ? I find it pretty easy to manage, although I get up early so we have a couple of hours of crossover work time. I guess 11.5 hours is a gap that would not allow for that, really. Getting on the phone or MSN is essential, email is no substitute.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
Gernally people in India speak english but you have to fight through the accent sometimes. Also they will never say no to you if you ask them to do something. That does not mean it will actually happen (my experiance only so please don't take this as a generalization). But the smallest thing takes at least 2 days. Day 1 is figuring out you have an issue and communicate it either in an email or in a 9 pm phone call. In the morning you will see an email with some questions about the issue. You answer it. They have gone home by then so they will see it and do something with it while you are sleeping. The only way I have ever seen this work well is someone must become nocturnal (usually them) or the US manager move to India.
E=mc2 -> BOOM
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... your kid told you they wanted to become a developer. What would you tell them they should learn? 1) C++. I'm started with vb 3 and have moved to c# and vb.net but I have always wished I learned a lower level language. I did a bunch of ANSI C on a unix system in school but that is the last place I've seen it. I think you are more competitive though in the market place if you know c++ simply because you can do more then take data out of a database and put it back in (probably the majority of projects .net is used for although I'm sure some people will list out some notable exceptions). 2) Patience. If you don't like to spend 8 hours a day trying to figure something out, your in the wrong business. -- modified at 20:00 Sunday 6th August, 2006
E=mc2 -> BOOM
Albert Einstein. wrote:
What would you tell them they should learn?
Not to follow their father's footsteps.:|
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Sure - there is some plumbing stuff that requires more code in C++. But, that plumbing stuff is not a great percentage of hte code that goes into an app. Therefore, the overall line count would still be similar.
Super Lloyd wrote:
BTW, is there a book on STL?
There are tons of good books on STL. Addison Wesley have a couple of great ones, including 'Generic programming and the STL', I can't see the other one in my pile of books to tell you the title.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
Christian Graus wrote:
Sure - there is some plumbing stuff that requires more code in C++. But, that plumbing stuff is not a great percentage of hte code that goes into an app. Therefore, the overall line count would still be similar.
Yep. But this plumbing requires lot of thinking and learning. Now perhaps I'm wrong but as a kid I would rather swap this plumbing if I could. At least for my 1st program. Sure enough I might want to learn it for the 3rd, or 4th program... But it's not something to consider for the 1st program, IMHO...
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... your kid told you they wanted to become a developer. What would you tell them they should learn? 1) C++. I'm started with vb 3 and have moved to c# and vb.net but I have always wished I learned a lower level language. I did a bunch of ANSI C on a unix system in school but that is the last place I've seen it. I think you are more competitive though in the market place if you know c++ simply because you can do more then take data out of a database and put it back in (probably the majority of projects .net is used for although I'm sure some people will list out some notable exceptions). 2) Patience. If you don't like to spend 8 hours a day trying to figure something out, your in the wrong business. -- modified at 20:00 Sunday 6th August, 2006
E=mc2 -> BOOM
Albert Einstein. wrote:
What would you tell them they should learn?
It depends on what the kid would like to do with it I'd say. If he wants to make games teach him Java and if he wants to make web pages teach him ASM. :rolleyes:
Jeremy Falcon
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... your kid told you they wanted to become a developer. What would you tell them they should learn? 1) C++. I'm started with vb 3 and have moved to c# and vb.net but I have always wished I learned a lower level language. I did a bunch of ANSI C on a unix system in school but that is the last place I've seen it. I think you are more competitive though in the market place if you know c++ simply because you can do more then take data out of a database and put it back in (probably the majority of projects .net is used for although I'm sure some people will list out some notable exceptions). 2) Patience. If you don't like to spend 8 hours a day trying to figure something out, your in the wrong business. -- modified at 20:00 Sunday 6th August, 2006
E=mc2 -> BOOM
I would say "learn a language, but don't dedicate yourself to that language". Languages and technologies change, it doesn't matter what language you choose, C# or C++ or another, just don't bet your whole concept of the world on the success of that language. When you have mastered that language, pick another and master it too, if only to prove you are not bound by faith to one and only one language and technology. Learn to adapt, learn to change, like the water that runs from the hill to the ocean, seemingly bending around every obstacle, seemingly held by others, seemingly directed by others... but ever faithful to a goal, your goal. Bend but do not break, press but do not demand, the water always wins with patience. The secret between success and misery in programming is as you said: patience. -- modified at 21:36 Sunday 6th August, 2006
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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Where did I say that one language was better than the other?!? :confused: I just said that C++ was not something to get quick visual results! As far as I know even C++ programmer are first to say that C++ is not the quickest to program! (which is the infamous VB). They even say that C++ is not for the weak minded (i.e. it's as difficult as only a C++ programmer could do it) They just say they have the quickest programs, which is very different!
Super Lloyd wrote:
I just said that C++ was not something to get quick visual results!
Agreed.
E=mc2 -> BOOM
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Albert Einstein. wrote:
What would you tell them they should learn?
Not to follow their father's footsteps.:|
lol
E=mc2 -> BOOM
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I would say "learn a language, but don't dedicate yourself to that language". Languages and technologies change, it doesn't matter what language you choose, C# or C++ or another, just don't bet your whole concept of the world on the success of that language. When you have mastered that language, pick another and master it too, if only to prove you are not bound by faith to one and only one language and technology. Learn to adapt, learn to change, like the water that runs from the hill to the ocean, seemingly bending around every obstacle, seemingly held by others, seemingly directed by others... but ever faithful to a goal, your goal. Bend but do not break, press but do not demand, the water always wins with patience. The secret between success and misery in programming is as you said: patience. -- modified at 21:36 Sunday 6th August, 2006
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
I would say "learn a language, but don't dedicate yourself to that language".
Best point yet. Learn programming concepts like OOP and the like but don't be bound to a launguage. To your point, my dad was a fortran/cobal guy when he was in school although he is not a developer now. Not a lot of fortran/cobal going on these days.
E=mc2 -> BOOM
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Christian Graus wrote:
Sure - there is some plumbing stuff that requires more code in C++. But, that plumbing stuff is not a great percentage of hte code that goes into an app. Therefore, the overall line count would still be similar.
Yep. But this plumbing requires lot of thinking and learning. Now perhaps I'm wrong but as a kid I would rather swap this plumbing if I could. At least for my 1st program. Sure enough I might want to learn it for the 3rd, or 4th program... But it's not something to consider for the 1st program, IMHO...
Super Lloyd wrote:
But this plumbing requires lot of thinking and learning.
And that's a problem because? Besides, it doesn't require too much more thinking to use C/C++ for console apps than it does for QBasic or even PASCAL. And, .NET only really shields you from working with Windows, DBs, etc. The fundmental concepts are pretty much the same. And, don't forget the possibility the kid may not be dumb. Treating kids like they are stupid is the best way to make them act stupid. So, what if the kid has to think his way through it a bit more, it'll pay off later when he wants to program his own stuff rather than be a copy and paste programmer. My first language was QBasic, so I have nothing against "beginner's languages", but it doesn't make learning C/C++ impossible to start with. And saying "it's tough" is a lame reason to choose or not choose a language IMO.
Jeremy Falcon
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Super Lloyd wrote:
But this plumbing requires lot of thinking and learning.
And that's a problem because? Besides, it doesn't require too much more thinking to use C/C++ for console apps than it does for QBasic or even PASCAL. And, .NET only really shields you from working with Windows, DBs, etc. The fundmental concepts are pretty much the same. And, don't forget the possibility the kid may not be dumb. Treating kids like they are stupid is the best way to make them act stupid. So, what if the kid has to think his way through it a bit more, it'll pay off later when he wants to program his own stuff rather than be a copy and paste programmer. My first language was QBasic, so I have nothing against "beginner's languages", but it doesn't make learning C/C++ impossible to start with. And saying "it's tough" is a lame reason to choose or not choose a language IMO.
Jeremy Falcon
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
Super Lloyd wrote: But this plumbing requires lot of thinking and learning. And that's a problem because?
Because you didn't read the following lines!
Now perhaps I'm wrong but as a kid I would rather swap this plumbing if I could. At least for my 1st program. Sure enough I might want to learn it for the 3rd, or 4th program...
At least as far as I'm concerned, when I learn something, I want to have a first quick results before going into the detail. I did learn assembly, but I still think it's a bad idea to learn it 1st. Same for C++.
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
too much more thinking to use C/C++ for console apps
I was speaking of graphical games here! Unlike C++ book I have read between 1998-2001, .NET and Java book makes you write GUI and multithreaded application as early as page 64.... ;P
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Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
I would say "learn a language, but don't dedicate yourself to that language".
Best point yet. Learn programming concepts like OOP and the like but don't be bound to a launguage. To your point, my dad was a fortran/cobal guy when he was in school although he is not a developer now. Not a lot of fortran/cobal going on these days.
E=mc2 -> BOOM
Albert Einstein. wrote:
Best point yet. Learn programming concepts like OOP and the like but don't be bound to a launguage.
The flipside to that coin is the "jack of all trades, master of none" concept. Despite popular belief, you really can't learn a gazillion langages and actually be great at all of them. You still have to pick a choose a few. Kinda only knowing a language only puts you one step above not knowing squat about it.
Jeremy Falcon
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... your kid told you they wanted to become a developer. What would you tell them they should learn? 1) C++. I'm started with vb 3 and have moved to c# and vb.net but I have always wished I learned a lower level language. I did a bunch of ANSI C on a unix system in school but that is the last place I've seen it. I think you are more competitive though in the market place if you know c++ simply because you can do more then take data out of a database and put it back in (probably the majority of projects .net is used for although I'm sure some people will list out some notable exceptions). 2) Patience. If you don't like to spend 8 hours a day trying to figure something out, your in the wrong business. -- modified at 20:00 Sunday 6th August, 2006
E=mc2 -> BOOM
I'd say "thats great son but are you sure you really want it or do you just want to be like your dad?" or "Thats great, go a and get a job waiting tables or tending bar and learn what it means to really really work for your money. Then when you are working as a programmer you will apretiate what a good job it really is and you wont look down on people that do more menial work" "Oh yeah, you might want to read this c++ book on the train while commuting to your bar job"
Objects in mirror are closer than they appear
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Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
I would say "learn a language, but don't dedicate yourself to that language".
Best point yet. Learn programming concepts like OOP and the like but don't be bound to a launguage. To your point, my dad was a fortran/cobal guy when he was in school although he is not a developer now. Not a lot of fortran/cobal going on these days.
E=mc2 -> BOOM
Albert Einstein. wrote:
my dad was a fortran/cobal guy when he was in school although he is not a developer now. Not a lot of fortran/cobal going on these days.
Nor will C++ and C# last 50 years. Both Fortran and Cobol still exist, they struggle as programmers who used them seek to bring back their faith, their dedication to one language, they struggle with pain and misery, as VB programmers are learning to do so also. Change is rapid in computer technology, what is new then is common now, what is new now requires new adaptions, new languages, new technologies and what is new tomorrow will require the same. Change is. It is not filled with fear, or doubt, or promise of success nor promise of failure, it simply is. No more, no less.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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Jeremy Falcon wrote:
Super Lloyd wrote: But this plumbing requires lot of thinking and learning. And that's a problem because?
Because you didn't read the following lines!
Now perhaps I'm wrong but as a kid I would rather swap this plumbing if I could. At least for my 1st program. Sure enough I might want to learn it for the 3rd, or 4th program...
At least as far as I'm concerned, when I learn something, I want to have a first quick results before going into the detail. I did learn assembly, but I still think it's a bad idea to learn it 1st. Same for C++.
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
too much more thinking to use C/C++ for console apps
I was speaking of graphical games here! Unlike C++ book I have read between 1998-2001, .NET and Java book makes you write GUI and multithreaded application as early as page 64.... ;P
Super Lloyd wrote:
Because you didn't read the following lines!
You assme too much, and miss many points I see, oh young one.
Super Lloyd wrote:
At least as far as I'm concerned, when I learn something, I want to have a first quick results before going into the detail.
That's where the patience comes in. And, we're talking about C/C++ here, not ML.
Super Lloyd wrote:
I was speaking of graphical games here...
As Christian already said, once the plumbing is done, it's all the same anyway. Also, if you want graphical games, that ain't instant either unless you want to plateau at only being able to make tic tac toe.
Jeremy Falcon