What would you say if.... [modified]
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I would say "learn a language, but don't dedicate yourself to that language". Languages and technologies change, it doesn't matter what language you choose, C# or C++ or another, just don't bet your whole concept of the world on the success of that language. When you have mastered that language, pick another and master it too, if only to prove you are not bound by faith to one and only one language and technology. Learn to adapt, learn to change, like the water that runs from the hill to the ocean, seemingly bending around every obstacle, seemingly held by others, seemingly directed by others... but ever faithful to a goal, your goal. Bend but do not break, press but do not demand, the water always wins with patience. The secret between success and misery in programming is as you said: patience. -- modified at 21:36 Sunday 6th August, 2006
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
I would say "learn a language, but don't dedicate yourself to that language".
Best point yet. Learn programming concepts like OOP and the like but don't be bound to a launguage. To your point, my dad was a fortran/cobal guy when he was in school although he is not a developer now. Not a lot of fortran/cobal going on these days.
E=mc2 -> BOOM
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Christian Graus wrote:
Sure - there is some plumbing stuff that requires more code in C++. But, that plumbing stuff is not a great percentage of hte code that goes into an app. Therefore, the overall line count would still be similar.
Yep. But this plumbing requires lot of thinking and learning. Now perhaps I'm wrong but as a kid I would rather swap this plumbing if I could. At least for my 1st program. Sure enough I might want to learn it for the 3rd, or 4th program... But it's not something to consider for the 1st program, IMHO...
Super Lloyd wrote:
But this plumbing requires lot of thinking and learning.
And that's a problem because? Besides, it doesn't require too much more thinking to use C/C++ for console apps than it does for QBasic or even PASCAL. And, .NET only really shields you from working with Windows, DBs, etc. The fundmental concepts are pretty much the same. And, don't forget the possibility the kid may not be dumb. Treating kids like they are stupid is the best way to make them act stupid. So, what if the kid has to think his way through it a bit more, it'll pay off later when he wants to program his own stuff rather than be a copy and paste programmer. My first language was QBasic, so I have nothing against "beginner's languages", but it doesn't make learning C/C++ impossible to start with. And saying "it's tough" is a lame reason to choose or not choose a language IMO.
Jeremy Falcon
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Super Lloyd wrote:
But this plumbing requires lot of thinking and learning.
And that's a problem because? Besides, it doesn't require too much more thinking to use C/C++ for console apps than it does for QBasic or even PASCAL. And, .NET only really shields you from working with Windows, DBs, etc. The fundmental concepts are pretty much the same. And, don't forget the possibility the kid may not be dumb. Treating kids like they are stupid is the best way to make them act stupid. So, what if the kid has to think his way through it a bit more, it'll pay off later when he wants to program his own stuff rather than be a copy and paste programmer. My first language was QBasic, so I have nothing against "beginner's languages", but it doesn't make learning C/C++ impossible to start with. And saying "it's tough" is a lame reason to choose or not choose a language IMO.
Jeremy Falcon
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
Super Lloyd wrote: But this plumbing requires lot of thinking and learning. And that's a problem because?
Because you didn't read the following lines!
Now perhaps I'm wrong but as a kid I would rather swap this plumbing if I could. At least for my 1st program. Sure enough I might want to learn it for the 3rd, or 4th program...
At least as far as I'm concerned, when I learn something, I want to have a first quick results before going into the detail. I did learn assembly, but I still think it's a bad idea to learn it 1st. Same for C++.
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
too much more thinking to use C/C++ for console apps
I was speaking of graphical games here! Unlike C++ book I have read between 1998-2001, .NET and Java book makes you write GUI and multithreaded application as early as page 64.... ;P
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Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
I would say "learn a language, but don't dedicate yourself to that language".
Best point yet. Learn programming concepts like OOP and the like but don't be bound to a launguage. To your point, my dad was a fortran/cobal guy when he was in school although he is not a developer now. Not a lot of fortran/cobal going on these days.
E=mc2 -> BOOM
Albert Einstein. wrote:
Best point yet. Learn programming concepts like OOP and the like but don't be bound to a launguage.
The flipside to that coin is the "jack of all trades, master of none" concept. Despite popular belief, you really can't learn a gazillion langages and actually be great at all of them. You still have to pick a choose a few. Kinda only knowing a language only puts you one step above not knowing squat about it.
Jeremy Falcon
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... your kid told you they wanted to become a developer. What would you tell them they should learn? 1) C++. I'm started with vb 3 and have moved to c# and vb.net but I have always wished I learned a lower level language. I did a bunch of ANSI C on a unix system in school but that is the last place I've seen it. I think you are more competitive though in the market place if you know c++ simply because you can do more then take data out of a database and put it back in (probably the majority of projects .net is used for although I'm sure some people will list out some notable exceptions). 2) Patience. If you don't like to spend 8 hours a day trying to figure something out, your in the wrong business. -- modified at 20:00 Sunday 6th August, 2006
E=mc2 -> BOOM
I'd say "thats great son but are you sure you really want it or do you just want to be like your dad?" or "Thats great, go a and get a job waiting tables or tending bar and learn what it means to really really work for your money. Then when you are working as a programmer you will apretiate what a good job it really is and you wont look down on people that do more menial work" "Oh yeah, you might want to read this c++ book on the train while commuting to your bar job"
Objects in mirror are closer than they appear
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Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
I would say "learn a language, but don't dedicate yourself to that language".
Best point yet. Learn programming concepts like OOP and the like but don't be bound to a launguage. To your point, my dad was a fortran/cobal guy when he was in school although he is not a developer now. Not a lot of fortran/cobal going on these days.
E=mc2 -> BOOM
Albert Einstein. wrote:
my dad was a fortran/cobal guy when he was in school although he is not a developer now. Not a lot of fortran/cobal going on these days.
Nor will C++ and C# last 50 years. Both Fortran and Cobol still exist, they struggle as programmers who used them seek to bring back their faith, their dedication to one language, they struggle with pain and misery, as VB programmers are learning to do so also. Change is rapid in computer technology, what is new then is common now, what is new now requires new adaptions, new languages, new technologies and what is new tomorrow will require the same. Change is. It is not filled with fear, or doubt, or promise of success nor promise of failure, it simply is. No more, no less.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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Jeremy Falcon wrote:
Super Lloyd wrote: But this plumbing requires lot of thinking and learning. And that's a problem because?
Because you didn't read the following lines!
Now perhaps I'm wrong but as a kid I would rather swap this plumbing if I could. At least for my 1st program. Sure enough I might want to learn it for the 3rd, or 4th program...
At least as far as I'm concerned, when I learn something, I want to have a first quick results before going into the detail. I did learn assembly, but I still think it's a bad idea to learn it 1st. Same for C++.
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
too much more thinking to use C/C++ for console apps
I was speaking of graphical games here! Unlike C++ book I have read between 1998-2001, .NET and Java book makes you write GUI and multithreaded application as early as page 64.... ;P
Super Lloyd wrote:
Because you didn't read the following lines!
You assme too much, and miss many points I see, oh young one.
Super Lloyd wrote:
At least as far as I'm concerned, when I learn something, I want to have a first quick results before going into the detail.
That's where the patience comes in. And, we're talking about C/C++ here, not ML.
Super Lloyd wrote:
I was speaking of graphical games here...
As Christian already said, once the plumbing is done, it's all the same anyway. Also, if you want graphical games, that ain't instant either unless you want to plateau at only being able to make tic tac toe.
Jeremy Falcon
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Albert Einstein. wrote:
Best point yet. Learn programming concepts like OOP and the like but don't be bound to a launguage.
The flipside to that coin is the "jack of all trades, master of none" concept. Despite popular belief, you really can't learn a gazillion langages and actually be great at all of them. You still have to pick a choose a few. Kinda only knowing a language only puts you one step above not knowing squat about it.
Jeremy Falcon
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
Kinda only knowing a language only puts you one step above not knowing squat about it.
which is why I said choose another, not every other. Programming is only a direction, a career is chosen when you specialize. Programming was my direction when I taught a friend to program Basic by first learning it myself from a book. My career was not chosen until after I entered the marketplace and did my first 3D program.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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... your kid told you they wanted to become a developer. What would you tell them they should learn? 1) C++. I'm started with vb 3 and have moved to c# and vb.net but I have always wished I learned a lower level language. I did a bunch of ANSI C on a unix system in school but that is the last place I've seen it. I think you are more competitive though in the market place if you know c++ simply because you can do more then take data out of a database and put it back in (probably the majority of projects .net is used for although I'm sure some people will list out some notable exceptions). 2) Patience. If you don't like to spend 8 hours a day trying to figure something out, your in the wrong business. -- modified at 20:00 Sunday 6th August, 2006
E=mc2 -> BOOM
So I changed my mind about No 1. Kids need to learn concepts of developement and it still be fun. They need to see results as well. Perhaps LEGO mindstorm would be a good idea. MS has a new robotics SDK out which supports VB.Net. Does anyone know any languages which are geared for kids to learn (don't say VB)?
E=mc2 -> BOOM
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Jeremy Falcon wrote:
Kinda only knowing a language only puts you one step above not knowing squat about it.
which is why I said choose another, not every other. Programming is only a direction, a career is chosen when you specialize. Programming was my direction when I taught a friend to program Basic by first learning it myself from a book. My career was not chosen until after I entered the marketplace and did my first 3D program.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
which is why I said choose another, not every other.
But, you didn't bother to bring up the point I made and acting is if learning a new language should be done on a whim - just becuase.
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
Programming is only a direction
So is East. ;P
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
a career is chosen when you specialize.
Tell that to my ex-coworkers that barely even know how to program. :laugh:
Jeremy Falcon
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I'd say "thats great son but are you sure you really want it or do you just want to be like your dad?" or "Thats great, go a and get a job waiting tables or tending bar and learn what it means to really really work for your money. Then when you are working as a programmer you will apretiate what a good job it really is and you wont look down on people that do more menial work" "Oh yeah, you might want to read this c++ book on the train while commuting to your bar job"
Objects in mirror are closer than they appear
Josh Gray wrote:
"thats great son but are you sure you really want it or do you just want to be like your dad?"
That's a good point. If that were the case, I'd probably just show the easiest language possible, just so he can have fun. Of course, then he'd end up liking it and become ruined becuase you turned him into a VB programmer. :laugh:
Jeremy Falcon
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... your kid told you they wanted to become a developer. What would you tell them they should learn? 1) C++. I'm started with vb 3 and have moved to c# and vb.net but I have always wished I learned a lower level language. I did a bunch of ANSI C on a unix system in school but that is the last place I've seen it. I think you are more competitive though in the market place if you know c++ simply because you can do more then take data out of a database and put it back in (probably the majority of projects .net is used for although I'm sure some people will list out some notable exceptions). 2) Patience. If you don't like to spend 8 hours a day trying to figure something out, your in the wrong business. -- modified at 20:00 Sunday 6th August, 2006
E=mc2 -> BOOM
I usually advise beginners to start with something like Python.
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Super Lloyd wrote:
Because you didn't read the following lines!
You assme too much, and miss many points I see, oh young one.
Super Lloyd wrote:
At least as far as I'm concerned, when I learn something, I want to have a first quick results before going into the detail.
That's where the patience comes in. And, we're talking about C/C++ here, not ML.
Super Lloyd wrote:
I was speaking of graphical games here...
As Christian already said, once the plumbing is done, it's all the same anyway. Also, if you want graphical games, that ain't instant either unless you want to plateau at only being able to make tic tac toe.
Jeremy Falcon
I don't understand what you say... I'm just suggesting to go on code4fun and to start by modyfying one of the sample. There is a funny kid missile language I reckon that should be cool. And you start to get touchy about C++. Now if you think it's more fun to start with C++, well good on you. I was just sharing my opinion I'm not not a pediatrist so I would stop this rather pointless discussion....
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Where did I say that one language was better than the other?!? :confused: I just said that C++ was not something to get quick visual results! As far as I know even C++ programmer are first to say that C++ is not the quickest to program! (which is the infamous VB). They even say that C++ is not for the weak minded (i.e. it's as difficult as only a C++ programmer could do it) They just say they have the quickest programs, which is very different!
Super Lloyd wrote:
I just said that C++ was not something to get quick visual results!
why so? If you want quick visual results with C++ follow Nehe tutorials, or write with OpenSceneGraph. Find someone who has already done "the plumbing" as it was put and it is all the same, only results are more profound, more creative, more addicting. If you want to discourage a child from entry into programming, deny him the plumbing and force him to do it himself, or give him a language with limited variety. If you want him to succeed, give him the truth, but give him access to the knowledge that came before him, of those who have already made the plumbing. Eventually he will find something that has not been done, then he can make the plumbing, then he knows the reason for it, rather than to write a letter to a company begging them to write the plumbing for him.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
which is why I said choose another, not every other.
But, you didn't bother to bring up the point I made and acting is if learning a new language should be done on a whim - just becuase.
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
Programming is only a direction
So is East. ;P
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
a career is chosen when you specialize.
Tell that to my ex-coworkers that barely even know how to program. :laugh:
Jeremy Falcon
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
Tell that to my ex-coworkers that barely even know how to program.
If you prefer. :) sure. It only requires a contract to my employer and permission from "my employer's employer." -- modified at 22:05 Sunday 6th August, 2006
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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Super Lloyd wrote:
I just said that C++ was not something to get quick visual results!
why so? If you want quick visual results with C++ follow Nehe tutorials, or write with OpenSceneGraph. Find someone who has already done "the plumbing" as it was put and it is all the same, only results are more profound, more creative, more addicting. If you want to discourage a child from entry into programming, deny him the plumbing and force him to do it himself, or give him a language with limited variety. If you want him to succeed, give him the truth, but give him access to the knowledge that came before him, of those who have already made the plumbing. Eventually he will find something that has not been done, then he can make the plumbing, then he knows the reason for it, rather than to write a letter to a company begging them to write the plumbing for him.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
why so? If you want quick visual results with C++ follow Nehe tutorials
Hey, that's a good idea! BTW why are you all so biggot about C++? Personally I don't care much! Indeed NeHe tutorial is a good place to start for a smooth path to C++ and fun graphic!
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So I changed my mind about No 1. Kids need to learn concepts of developement and it still be fun. They need to see results as well. Perhaps LEGO mindstorm would be a good idea. MS has a new robotics SDK out which supports VB.Net. Does anyone know any languages which are geared for kids to learn (don't say VB)?
E=mc2 -> BOOM
Albert Einstein. wrote:
Does anyone know any languages which are geared for kids to learn (don't say VB)?
I haven't used it, but it looks promising... http://www.kidsprogramminglanguage.com/[^]
Jeremy Falcon
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Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
why so? If you want quick visual results with C++ follow Nehe tutorials
Hey, that's a good idea! BTW why are you all so biggot about C++? Personally I don't care much! Indeed NeHe tutorial is a good place to start for a smooth path to C++ and fun graphic!
Super Lloyd wrote:
BTW why are you all so biggot about C++?
why is it better or worse than C#? You are fighting to put it down, I am saying it is neither better, nor worse. Both exist for a reason. The right tool for the right job.... However, in mentioning Lego and "kid languages" just how young are we talking here? 5 years old? 8? 12? 15? 18? I was thinking 12 or 15 when children are starting to think about careers... but in mentioning Lego... are we talking younger? If so, neither language is a good starting spot, this is the time to learn of many careers, if all he knows is what his dad does, he will not set forth on his own path in life, he will only follow yours because the path is already worn. That is not a great starting point.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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Super Lloyd wrote:
Because you didn't read the following lines!
You assme too much, and miss many points I see, oh young one.
Super Lloyd wrote:
At least as far as I'm concerned, when I learn something, I want to have a first quick results before going into the detail.
That's where the patience comes in. And, we're talking about C/C++ here, not ML.
Super Lloyd wrote:
I was speaking of graphical games here...
As Christian already said, once the plumbing is done, it's all the same anyway. Also, if you want graphical games, that ain't instant either unless you want to plateau at only being able to make tic tac toe.
Jeremy Falcon
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
Also, if you want graphical games, that ain't instant either unless you want to plateau at only being able to make tic tac toe.
Hey just go there: http://msdn.microsoft.com/coding4fun/[^] Plenty of easy to start sample. Possibly there are some C++ sample!
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I don't understand what you say... I'm just suggesting to go on code4fun and to start by modyfying one of the sample. There is a funny kid missile language I reckon that should be cool. And you start to get touchy about C++. Now if you think it's more fun to start with C++, well good on you. I was just sharing my opinion I'm not not a pediatrist so I would stop this rather pointless discussion....
Super Lloyd wrote:
I'm just suggesting to go on code4fun and to start by modyfying one of the sample. There is a funny kid missile language I reckon that should be cool.
Examples are great, but if you've never seen anything to do with programming in your life, you may as well be reading Latin.
Super Lloyd wrote:
And you start to get touchy about C++.
Once again, you assume too much. My favorite language of all time is C. I enjoy C++, but I'm not touchy about it. My point is
Console.WriteLineisn't much more easier thancoutwhen starting to learn. And you're point about GUI development, learn the language first, before you learn Windows programming. That is, unless you enjoy being a lousy programmer.Super Lloyd wrote:
I was just sharing my opinion I'm not not a pediatrist so I would stop this rather pointless discussion....
Do you think it's pointless because I do not agree with you, or are you just trying to weasle out of it?
Jeremy Falcon