What would you say if.... [modified]
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I'd say "thats great son but are you sure you really want it or do you just want to be like your dad?" or "Thats great, go a and get a job waiting tables or tending bar and learn what it means to really really work for your money. Then when you are working as a programmer you will apretiate what a good job it really is and you wont look down on people that do more menial work" "Oh yeah, you might want to read this c++ book on the train while commuting to your bar job"
Objects in mirror are closer than they appear
Josh Gray wrote:
"thats great son but are you sure you really want it or do you just want to be like your dad?"
That's a good point. If that were the case, I'd probably just show the easiest language possible, just so he can have fun. Of course, then he'd end up liking it and become ruined becuase you turned him into a VB programmer. :laugh:
Jeremy Falcon
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... your kid told you they wanted to become a developer. What would you tell them they should learn? 1) C++. I'm started with vb 3 and have moved to c# and vb.net but I have always wished I learned a lower level language. I did a bunch of ANSI C on a unix system in school but that is the last place I've seen it. I think you are more competitive though in the market place if you know c++ simply because you can do more then take data out of a database and put it back in (probably the majority of projects .net is used for although I'm sure some people will list out some notable exceptions). 2) Patience. If you don't like to spend 8 hours a day trying to figure something out, your in the wrong business. -- modified at 20:00 Sunday 6th August, 2006
E=mc2 -> BOOM
I usually advise beginners to start with something like Python.
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Super Lloyd wrote:
Because you didn't read the following lines!
You assme too much, and miss many points I see, oh young one.
Super Lloyd wrote:
At least as far as I'm concerned, when I learn something, I want to have a first quick results before going into the detail.
That's where the patience comes in. And, we're talking about C/C++ here, not ML.
Super Lloyd wrote:
I was speaking of graphical games here...
As Christian already said, once the plumbing is done, it's all the same anyway. Also, if you want graphical games, that ain't instant either unless you want to plateau at only being able to make tic tac toe.
Jeremy Falcon
I don't understand what you say... I'm just suggesting to go on code4fun and to start by modyfying one of the sample. There is a funny kid missile language I reckon that should be cool. And you start to get touchy about C++. Now if you think it's more fun to start with C++, well good on you. I was just sharing my opinion I'm not not a pediatrist so I would stop this rather pointless discussion....
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Where did I say that one language was better than the other?!? :confused: I just said that C++ was not something to get quick visual results! As far as I know even C++ programmer are first to say that C++ is not the quickest to program! (which is the infamous VB). They even say that C++ is not for the weak minded (i.e. it's as difficult as only a C++ programmer could do it) They just say they have the quickest programs, which is very different!
Super Lloyd wrote:
I just said that C++ was not something to get quick visual results!
why so? If you want quick visual results with C++ follow Nehe tutorials, or write with OpenSceneGraph. Find someone who has already done "the plumbing" as it was put and it is all the same, only results are more profound, more creative, more addicting. If you want to discourage a child from entry into programming, deny him the plumbing and force him to do it himself, or give him a language with limited variety. If you want him to succeed, give him the truth, but give him access to the knowledge that came before him, of those who have already made the plumbing. Eventually he will find something that has not been done, then he can make the plumbing, then he knows the reason for it, rather than to write a letter to a company begging them to write the plumbing for him.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
which is why I said choose another, not every other.
But, you didn't bother to bring up the point I made and acting is if learning a new language should be done on a whim - just becuase.
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
Programming is only a direction
So is East. ;P
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
a career is chosen when you specialize.
Tell that to my ex-coworkers that barely even know how to program. :laugh:
Jeremy Falcon
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
Tell that to my ex-coworkers that barely even know how to program.
If you prefer. :) sure. It only requires a contract to my employer and permission from "my employer's employer." -- modified at 22:05 Sunday 6th August, 2006
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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Super Lloyd wrote:
I just said that C++ was not something to get quick visual results!
why so? If you want quick visual results with C++ follow Nehe tutorials, or write with OpenSceneGraph. Find someone who has already done "the plumbing" as it was put and it is all the same, only results are more profound, more creative, more addicting. If you want to discourage a child from entry into programming, deny him the plumbing and force him to do it himself, or give him a language with limited variety. If you want him to succeed, give him the truth, but give him access to the knowledge that came before him, of those who have already made the plumbing. Eventually he will find something that has not been done, then he can make the plumbing, then he knows the reason for it, rather than to write a letter to a company begging them to write the plumbing for him.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
why so? If you want quick visual results with C++ follow Nehe tutorials
Hey, that's a good idea! BTW why are you all so biggot about C++? Personally I don't care much! Indeed NeHe tutorial is a good place to start for a smooth path to C++ and fun graphic!
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So I changed my mind about No 1. Kids need to learn concepts of developement and it still be fun. They need to see results as well. Perhaps LEGO mindstorm would be a good idea. MS has a new robotics SDK out which supports VB.Net. Does anyone know any languages which are geared for kids to learn (don't say VB)?
E=mc2 -> BOOM
Albert Einstein. wrote:
Does anyone know any languages which are geared for kids to learn (don't say VB)?
I haven't used it, but it looks promising... http://www.kidsprogramminglanguage.com/[^]
Jeremy Falcon
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Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
why so? If you want quick visual results with C++ follow Nehe tutorials
Hey, that's a good idea! BTW why are you all so biggot about C++? Personally I don't care much! Indeed NeHe tutorial is a good place to start for a smooth path to C++ and fun graphic!
Super Lloyd wrote:
BTW why are you all so biggot about C++?
why is it better or worse than C#? You are fighting to put it down, I am saying it is neither better, nor worse. Both exist for a reason. The right tool for the right job.... However, in mentioning Lego and "kid languages" just how young are we talking here? 5 years old? 8? 12? 15? 18? I was thinking 12 or 15 when children are starting to think about careers... but in mentioning Lego... are we talking younger? If so, neither language is a good starting spot, this is the time to learn of many careers, if all he knows is what his dad does, he will not set forth on his own path in life, he will only follow yours because the path is already worn. That is not a great starting point.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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Super Lloyd wrote:
Because you didn't read the following lines!
You assme too much, and miss many points I see, oh young one.
Super Lloyd wrote:
At least as far as I'm concerned, when I learn something, I want to have a first quick results before going into the detail.
That's where the patience comes in. And, we're talking about C/C++ here, not ML.
Super Lloyd wrote:
I was speaking of graphical games here...
As Christian already said, once the plumbing is done, it's all the same anyway. Also, if you want graphical games, that ain't instant either unless you want to plateau at only being able to make tic tac toe.
Jeremy Falcon
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
Also, if you want graphical games, that ain't instant either unless you want to plateau at only being able to make tic tac toe.
Hey just go there: http://msdn.microsoft.com/coding4fun/[^] Plenty of easy to start sample. Possibly there are some C++ sample!
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I don't understand what you say... I'm just suggesting to go on code4fun and to start by modyfying one of the sample. There is a funny kid missile language I reckon that should be cool. And you start to get touchy about C++. Now if you think it's more fun to start with C++, well good on you. I was just sharing my opinion I'm not not a pediatrist so I would stop this rather pointless discussion....
Super Lloyd wrote:
I'm just suggesting to go on code4fun and to start by modyfying one of the sample. There is a funny kid missile language I reckon that should be cool.
Examples are great, but if you've never seen anything to do with programming in your life, you may as well be reading Latin.
Super Lloyd wrote:
And you start to get touchy about C++.
Once again, you assume too much. My favorite language of all time is C. I enjoy C++, but I'm not touchy about it. My point is
Console.WriteLineisn't much more easier thancoutwhen starting to learn. And you're point about GUI development, learn the language first, before you learn Windows programming. That is, unless you enjoy being a lousy programmer.Super Lloyd wrote:
I was just sharing my opinion I'm not not a pediatrist so I would stop this rather pointless discussion....
Do you think it's pointless because I do not agree with you, or are you just trying to weasle out of it?
Jeremy Falcon
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... your kid told you they wanted to become a developer. What would you tell them they should learn? 1) C++. I'm started with vb 3 and have moved to c# and vb.net but I have always wished I learned a lower level language. I did a bunch of ANSI C on a unix system in school but that is the last place I've seen it. I think you are more competitive though in the market place if you know c++ simply because you can do more then take data out of a database and put it back in (probably the majority of projects .net is used for although I'm sure some people will list out some notable exceptions). 2) Patience. If you don't like to spend 8 hours a day trying to figure something out, your in the wrong business. -- modified at 20:00 Sunday 6th August, 2006
E=mc2 -> BOOM
Albert Einstein. wrote:
I'm started with vb 3 and have moved to c# and vb.net but I have always wished I learned a lower level language.
Doesn't mean that's a better thing to start with. The basic concepts of programming (variables, conditionals, loops, recursion, etc.) are the same for everything from assembler to VB. Learn those, and he'll still have time to pick up all the fun low-level stuff before his brain atrophies.
---- Scripts i’ve known... CPhog 1.8.2 - make CP better. Forum Bookmark 0.2.5 - bookmark forum posts on Pensieve Print forum 0.1.2 - printer-friendly forums Expand all 1.0 - Expand all messages In-place Delete 1.0 - AJAX-style post delete Syntax 0.1 - Syntax highlighting for code blocks in the forums
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I'd say "thats great son but are you sure you really want it or do you just want to be like your dad?" or "Thats great, go a and get a job waiting tables or tending bar and learn what it means to really really work for your money. Then when you are working as a programmer you will apretiate what a good job it really is and you wont look down on people that do more menial work" "Oh yeah, you might want to read this c++ book on the train while commuting to your bar job"
Objects in mirror are closer than they appear
Josh Gray wrote:
"Thats great, go a and get a job waiting tables or tending bar and learn what it means to really really work for your money. Then when you are working as a programmer you will apretiate what a good job it really is and you wont look down on people that do more menial work" "Oh yeah, you might want to read this c++ book on the train while commuting to your bar job"
personally I think that is good advice regardless of career choice.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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Jeremy Falcon wrote:
Also, if you want graphical games, that ain't instant either unless you want to plateau at only being able to make tic tac toe.
Hey just go there: http://msdn.microsoft.com/coding4fun/[^] Plenty of easy to start sample. Possibly there are some C++ sample!
Super Lloyd wrote:
Hey just go there:
Hey, just tell me what this says... http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/phaedr2.html[^]
Jeremy Falcon
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Jeremy Falcon wrote:
Tell that to my ex-coworkers that barely even know how to program.
If you prefer. :) sure. It only requires a contract to my employer and permission from "my employer's employer." -- modified at 22:05 Sunday 6th August, 2006
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
It only requires a contract to my employer and permission from "my employer's employer."
:doh::laugh:
Jeremy Falcon
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So I changed my mind about No 1. Kids need to learn concepts of developement and it still be fun. They need to see results as well. Perhaps LEGO mindstorm would be a good idea. MS has a new robotics SDK out which supports VB.Net. Does anyone know any languages which are geared for kids to learn (don't say VB)?
E=mc2 -> BOOM
Albert Einstein. wrote:
So I changed my mind about No 1. Kids need to learn concepts of developement and it still be fun. They need to see results as well. Perhaps LEGO mindstorm would be a good idea.
How "young" is this kid?
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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Super Lloyd wrote:
BTW why are you all so biggot about C++?
why is it better or worse than C#? You are fighting to put it down, I am saying it is neither better, nor worse. Both exist for a reason. The right tool for the right job.... However, in mentioning Lego and "kid languages" just how young are we talking here? 5 years old? 8? 12? 15? 18? I was thinking 12 or 15 when children are starting to think about careers... but in mentioning Lego... are we talking younger? If so, neither language is a good starting spot, this is the time to learn of many careers, if all he knows is what his dad does, he will not set forth on his own path in life, he will only follow yours because the path is already worn. That is not a great starting point.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
why is it better or worse than C#?
I took great care not to mention C# (But Oops.. I did mention it, sorry :sigh: ) I just mentioned http://msdn.microsoft.com/coding4fun/[^] Between kid age to adult you'll learn many things. I think learning C++ first is not the best way to have fun. Because you want to show your friend a flying saucer first! Next you might want to have 10.000 flying saucer all flying smoothly, that would be a good time to learn C++. I had no particular age in mind. I was just trying to advocate the easiest way to the fastest results. Perhaps VB? Beside if (s)he start programing in a couple of year I trust (s)he will know more than 3 or 4 languages, kids are like that. So I won't worry. I just try to make his/her debut as fun and easy as possible so (s)he will want to continue..... -- modified at 22:27 Sunday 6th August, 2006
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Super Lloyd wrote:
I'm just suggesting to go on code4fun and to start by modyfying one of the sample. There is a funny kid missile language I reckon that should be cool.
Examples are great, but if you've never seen anything to do with programming in your life, you may as well be reading Latin.
Super Lloyd wrote:
And you start to get touchy about C++.
Once again, you assume too much. My favorite language of all time is C. I enjoy C++, but I'm not touchy about it. My point is
Console.WriteLineisn't much more easier thancoutwhen starting to learn. And you're point about GUI development, learn the language first, before you learn Windows programming. That is, unless you enjoy being a lousy programmer.Super Lloyd wrote:
I was just sharing my opinion I'm not not a pediatrist so I would stop this rather pointless discussion....
Do you think it's pointless because I do not agree with you, or are you just trying to weasle out of it?
Jeremy Falcon
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
Examples are great, but if you've never seen anything to do with programming in your life, you may as well be reading Latin.
I am sorry but I start programing when I was 12, with I can't remember the language now. I was trying to write a a graphic game (printf is boooring). I had a book about that. Graphic is eaaasy! Much later I also learnt graphical java programing in 21 days, as an other book was saying! Why do you think it's difficult? too much C perhaps?
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
Do you think it's pointless because I do not agree with you, or are you just trying to weasle out of it?
Because my main point was: "trying to suggest tips for quick (e.g. easy) and fun (e.g. visual) programing" (so (s)he will like it and continue). And I have the feeling you are trying to transform this discussion into a discussion of merits between various language from a programmer point of view. That just doesn't interest me! Just so you know, I found Jeffry J. Brickley remarks about NeHe much more in relation with the kind of thing I had in mind (although as C++ oriented).
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Super Lloyd wrote:
BTW why are you all so biggot about C++?
why is it better or worse than C#? You are fighting to put it down, I am saying it is neither better, nor worse. Both exist for a reason. The right tool for the right job.... However, in mentioning Lego and "kid languages" just how young are we talking here? 5 years old? 8? 12? 15? 18? I was thinking 12 or 15 when children are starting to think about careers... but in mentioning Lego... are we talking younger? If so, neither language is a good starting spot, this is the time to learn of many careers, if all he knows is what his dad does, he will not set forth on his own path in life, he will only follow yours because the path is already worn. That is not a great starting point.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
why is it better or worse than C#? You are fighting to put it down, I am saying it is neither better, nor worse. Both exist for a reason. The right tool for the right job....
Now, I just say it is simpler. I though that even C++ developer agree about that.
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Super Lloyd wrote:
Hey just go there:
Hey, just tell me what this says... http://www.thelatinlibrary.com/phaedr2.html[^]
Jeremy Falcon
Even more boring than C++ ;P (yeah, now I'm teasing! :-D)
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Jeremy Falcon wrote:
Examples are great, but if you've never seen anything to do with programming in your life, you may as well be reading Latin.
I am sorry but I start programing when I was 12, with I can't remember the language now. I was trying to write a a graphic game (printf is boooring). I had a book about that. Graphic is eaaasy! Much later I also learnt graphical java programing in 21 days, as an other book was saying! Why do you think it's difficult? too much C perhaps?
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
Do you think it's pointless because I do not agree with you, or are you just trying to weasle out of it?
Because my main point was: "trying to suggest tips for quick (e.g. easy) and fun (e.g. visual) programing" (so (s)he will like it and continue). And I have the feeling you are trying to transform this discussion into a discussion of merits between various language from a programmer point of view. That just doesn't interest me! Just so you know, I found Jeffry J. Brickley remarks about NeHe much more in relation with the kind of thing I had in mind (although as C++ oriented).
Super Lloyd wrote:
I am sorry but I start programing when I was 12, with I can't remember the language now.
You don't remember the first language you learned to program with? :wtf:
Super Lloyd wrote:
Why do you think it's difficult? too much C perhaps?
I never said it was difficult, that's been your whole argument since the get-go.
Super Lloyd wrote:
Because my main point was: "trying to suggest tips for quick (e.g. easy) and fun (e.g. visual) programing" (so (s)he will like it and continue).
You assume they'll enjoy GUI development. What if they don't? Also, that wasn't your point. You suggested not using C/C++ because it's tough. BTW, there's not much RAD/"Visual Programming" involved with game development. My suggestion is you learn how to use the language, before you learn how to use the language for Window's programming, etc.
Super Lloyd wrote:
And I have the feeling you are trying to transform this discussion into a discussion of merits between various language from a programmer point of view.
I have a feeling you don't really want to become a good programmer yourself.
Super Lloyd wrote:
Just so you know, I found Jeffry J. Brickley remarks about NeHe much more in relation with the kind of thing I had in mind (although as C++ oriented).
I've been through the NeHe site a LOT. I can say his tutorials have bug after bug in them. He even prefaces his articles by saying he's not a great programmer (probably someone like you who doesn't care about the "boring stuff"). The result is lousy code. The point is, that's a lousy site for someone to learn the proper ways to program with. Studying OGL AFTER they know how to program is one thing, not when you're new to all of it. Lastly, none of this has to do with your orignal point - which is C/C++ is too "tough" to start with.
Jeremy Falcon