What would you say if.... [modified]
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Jeremy Falcon wrote:
Examples are great, but if you've never seen anything to do with programming in your life, you may as well be reading Latin.
I am sorry but I start programing when I was 12, with I can't remember the language now. I was trying to write a a graphic game (printf is boooring). I had a book about that. Graphic is eaaasy! Much later I also learnt graphical java programing in 21 days, as an other book was saying! Why do you think it's difficult? too much C perhaps?
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
Do you think it's pointless because I do not agree with you, or are you just trying to weasle out of it?
Because my main point was: "trying to suggest tips for quick (e.g. easy) and fun (e.g. visual) programing" (so (s)he will like it and continue). And I have the feeling you are trying to transform this discussion into a discussion of merits between various language from a programmer point of view. That just doesn't interest me! Just so you know, I found Jeffry J. Brickley remarks about NeHe much more in relation with the kind of thing I had in mind (although as C++ oriented).
Super Lloyd wrote:
I am sorry but I start programing when I was 12, with I can't remember the language now.
You don't remember the first language you learned to program with? :wtf:
Super Lloyd wrote:
Why do you think it's difficult? too much C perhaps?
I never said it was difficult, that's been your whole argument since the get-go.
Super Lloyd wrote:
Because my main point was: "trying to suggest tips for quick (e.g. easy) and fun (e.g. visual) programing" (so (s)he will like it and continue).
You assume they'll enjoy GUI development. What if they don't? Also, that wasn't your point. You suggested not using C/C++ because it's tough. BTW, there's not much RAD/"Visual Programming" involved with game development. My suggestion is you learn how to use the language, before you learn how to use the language for Window's programming, etc.
Super Lloyd wrote:
And I have the feeling you are trying to transform this discussion into a discussion of merits between various language from a programmer point of view.
I have a feeling you don't really want to become a good programmer yourself.
Super Lloyd wrote:
Just so you know, I found Jeffry J. Brickley remarks about NeHe much more in relation with the kind of thing I had in mind (although as C++ oriented).
I've been through the NeHe site a LOT. I can say his tutorials have bug after bug in them. He even prefaces his articles by saying he's not a great programmer (probably someone like you who doesn't care about the "boring stuff"). The result is lousy code. The point is, that's a lousy site for someone to learn the proper ways to program with. Studying OGL AFTER they know how to program is one thing, not when you're new to all of it. Lastly, none of this has to do with your orignal point - which is C/C++ is too "tough" to start with.
Jeremy Falcon
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Even more boring than C++ ;P (yeah, now I'm teasing! :-D)
Super Lloyd wrote:
Even more boring than C++
Yeah, because waiting 5 hours for your VM to bootstrap while running your lastest Java app is so much more exciting. :rolleyes:
Jeremy Falcon
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... your kid told you they wanted to become a developer. What would you tell them they should learn? 1) C++. I'm started with vb 3 and have moved to c# and vb.net but I have always wished I learned a lower level language. I did a bunch of ANSI C on a unix system in school but that is the last place I've seen it. I think you are more competitive though in the market place if you know c++ simply because you can do more then take data out of a database and put it back in (probably the majority of projects .net is used for although I'm sure some people will list out some notable exceptions). 2) Patience. If you don't like to spend 8 hours a day trying to figure something out, your in the wrong business. -- modified at 20:00 Sunday 6th August, 2006
E=mc2 -> BOOM
I'd not say a thing. I'd ask him where he plans on starting. What he's interested in writing. What type of environment he wants to work in. Then I'd encourage him to use Google and to do some research on the languages in those areas. Ask him to put together a list of facts he found. Help him to organize those facts into topics and sub-topics then send him back to Google. In doing so not only will you be allowing him to make a lot of decisions but you'll me teaching him something vital. VITAL: He can learn a lot on his own and for himself if he just puts some effort into it. I would not tell him which languages are better, lamer, whatever. I'd see what he returns with. Each time I'd help him organize it but I'd not clutter his work with opinions. Encourage him to pursue his interests in various areas and then see what he finally returns with. Once you've done that, once *he* has done that you will both be satisfied with the results. - Rex
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Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
why is it better or worse than C#? You are fighting to put it down, I am saying it is neither better, nor worse. Both exist for a reason. The right tool for the right job....
Now, I just say it is simpler. I though that even C++ developer agree about that.
Super Lloyd wrote:
Now, I just say it is simpler. I though that even C++ developer agree about that.
A screwdriver is simplier than a wrench, but they do not do the same job. Always choosing only the simpliest way leads you only to demanding that VB be ressurected because you don't want to have to "learn" anything.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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Super Lloyd wrote:
I am sorry but I start programing when I was 12, with I can't remember the language now.
You don't remember the first language you learned to program with? :wtf:
Super Lloyd wrote:
Why do you think it's difficult? too much C perhaps?
I never said it was difficult, that's been your whole argument since the get-go.
Super Lloyd wrote:
Because my main point was: "trying to suggest tips for quick (e.g. easy) and fun (e.g. visual) programing" (so (s)he will like it and continue).
You assume they'll enjoy GUI development. What if they don't? Also, that wasn't your point. You suggested not using C/C++ because it's tough. BTW, there's not much RAD/"Visual Programming" involved with game development. My suggestion is you learn how to use the language, before you learn how to use the language for Window's programming, etc.
Super Lloyd wrote:
And I have the feeling you are trying to transform this discussion into a discussion of merits between various language from a programmer point of view.
I have a feeling you don't really want to become a good programmer yourself.
Super Lloyd wrote:
Just so you know, I found Jeffry J. Brickley remarks about NeHe much more in relation with the kind of thing I had in mind (although as C++ oriented).
I've been through the NeHe site a LOT. I can say his tutorials have bug after bug in them. He even prefaces his articles by saying he's not a great programmer (probably someone like you who doesn't care about the "boring stuff"). The result is lousy code. The point is, that's a lousy site for someone to learn the proper ways to program with. Studying OGL AFTER they know how to program is one thing, not when you're new to all of it. Lastly, none of this has to do with your orignal point - which is C/C++ is too "tough" to start with.
Jeremy Falcon
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
Lastly, none of this has to do with your orignal point - which is C/C++ is too "tough" to start with.
Perhaps my original point was badly worded, let's try again. There are languages that will yield faster result (in learning time). And yeah I'm assuming graphics are fun and it's what the kid want to do. Now I'm sure the kid would want to learn C++... after a few months ;P But I believe the sooner (s)he has a flying soccer on the screen the happyer he would be.
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Super Lloyd wrote:
Even more boring than C++
Yeah, because waiting 5 hours for your VM to bootstrap while running your lastest Java app is so much more exciting. :rolleyes:
Jeremy Falcon
come on, 1.0 was 7 year ago. it's 1.6 now!
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come on, 1.0 was 7 year ago. it's 1.6 now!
Super Lloyd wrote:
it's 1.6 now!
Yeah, and Jolt cola is still the cool, happy hacker drink. ;P
Jeremy Falcon
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Super Lloyd wrote:
I am sorry but I start programing when I was 12, with I can't remember the language now.
You don't remember the first language you learned to program with? :wtf:
Super Lloyd wrote:
Why do you think it's difficult? too much C perhaps?
I never said it was difficult, that's been your whole argument since the get-go.
Super Lloyd wrote:
Because my main point was: "trying to suggest tips for quick (e.g. easy) and fun (e.g. visual) programing" (so (s)he will like it and continue).
You assume they'll enjoy GUI development. What if they don't? Also, that wasn't your point. You suggested not using C/C++ because it's tough. BTW, there's not much RAD/"Visual Programming" involved with game development. My suggestion is you learn how to use the language, before you learn how to use the language for Window's programming, etc.
Super Lloyd wrote:
And I have the feeling you are trying to transform this discussion into a discussion of merits between various language from a programmer point of view.
I have a feeling you don't really want to become a good programmer yourself.
Super Lloyd wrote:
Just so you know, I found Jeffry J. Brickley remarks about NeHe much more in relation with the kind of thing I had in mind (although as C++ oriented).
I've been through the NeHe site a LOT. I can say his tutorials have bug after bug in them. He even prefaces his articles by saying he's not a great programmer (probably someone like you who doesn't care about the "boring stuff"). The result is lousy code. The point is, that's a lousy site for someone to learn the proper ways to program with. Studying OGL AFTER they know how to program is one thing, not when you're new to all of it. Lastly, none of this has to do with your orignal point - which is C/C++ is too "tough" to start with.
Jeremy Falcon
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
You don't remember the first language you learned to program with? :wtf:
I had the same reaction... I can tell you when, where, how, who was involved, the language, the first project, and how the results went.
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
I've been through the NeHe site a LOT. I can say his tutorials have bug after bug in them. He even prefaces his articles by saying he's not a great programmer (probably someone like you who doesn't care about the "boring stuff"). The result is lousy code.
He writes in Pascal if I recall, others translate the programs into various versions of the same program. Nehe will get you some "quick thrill" results, without being particularly useful, I meant it only for the eye-candy. You don't want Nehe to teach you to program only to see what you "can do" if you learn. Eventually you have to learn more to get past Nehe level, which does not go very high at all. It is meant only as a quick introduction to OGL, not as how to program in any of the languages he or his readers have translated to the code into.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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Jeremy Falcon wrote:
Lastly, none of this has to do with your orignal point - which is C/C++ is too "tough" to start with.
Perhaps my original point was badly worded, let's try again. There are languages that will yield faster result (in learning time). And yeah I'm assuming graphics are fun and it's what the kid want to do. Now I'm sure the kid would want to learn C++... after a few months ;P But I believe the sooner (s)he has a flying soccer on the screen the happyer he would be.
Super Lloyd wrote:
Now I'm sure the kid would want to learn C++... after a few months But I believe the sooner (s)he has a flying soccer on the screen the happyer he would be.
I think at this point the argument is moot until we find the age of this kid.... If we are talking pre-teen, I am backing the guy who said "don't follow in your dad's footsteps" if only because he is probably choosing the only thing he knows rather than really choosing what he wants.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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Jeremy Falcon wrote:
You don't remember the first language you learned to program with? :wtf:
I had the same reaction... I can tell you when, where, how, who was involved, the language, the first project, and how the results went.
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
I've been through the NeHe site a LOT. I can say his tutorials have bug after bug in them. He even prefaces his articles by saying he's not a great programmer (probably someone like you who doesn't care about the "boring stuff"). The result is lousy code.
He writes in Pascal if I recall, others translate the programs into various versions of the same program. Nehe will get you some "quick thrill" results, without being particularly useful, I meant it only for the eye-candy. You don't want Nehe to teach you to program only to see what you "can do" if you learn. Eventually you have to learn more to get past Nehe level, which does not go very high at all. It is meant only as a quick introduction to OGL, not as how to program in any of the languages he or his readers have translated to the code into.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
I can tell you when, where, how, who was involved, the language, the first project, and how the results went.
Ditto, although I'm still trying to keep the fact I started with QBasic under wraps. :laugh:
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
It is meant only as a quick introduction to OGL, not as how to program in any of the languages he or his readers have translated to the code into.
I totally agree, but I don't think that's how Super-Duper Lloyd was looking at it.
Jeremy Falcon
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Super Lloyd wrote:
it's 1.6 now!
Yeah, and Jolt cola is still the cool, happy hacker drink. ;P
Jeremy Falcon
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
Yeah, and Jolt cola is still the cool, happy hacker drink.
Jolt candy bars, Jolt gum... Jolt soap... I am waiting for Jolt hand-lotion and Jolt keyboards.... ;P
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
I can tell you when, where, how, who was involved, the language, the first project, and how the results went.
Ditto, although I'm still trying to keep the fact I started with QBasic under wraps. :laugh:
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
It is meant only as a quick introduction to OGL, not as how to program in any of the languages he or his readers have translated to the code into.
I totally agree, but I don't think that's how Super-Duper Lloyd was looking at it.
Jeremy Falcon
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
I totally agree, but I don't think that's how Super-Duper Lloyd was looking at it.
It is always easy to assume intent... It is always better to ask. :-D
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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Jeremy Falcon wrote:
I totally agree, but I don't think that's how Super-Duper Lloyd was looking at it.
It is always easy to assume intent... It is always better to ask. :-D
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
It is always better to ask.
Where's the fun in that? :->
Jeremy Falcon
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Super Lloyd wrote:
Now, I just say it is simpler. I though that even C++ developer agree about that.
A screwdriver is simplier than a wrench, but they do not do the same job. Always choosing only the simpliest way leads you only to demanding that VB be ressurected because you don't want to have to "learn" anything.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
:confused: I think there is a communication problem here... Let's assume it's me and because this is not really important I will just stop this deaf-mute dialog and go back to my normal activities...
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Super Lloyd wrote:
Now I'm sure the kid would want to learn C++... after a few months But I believe the sooner (s)he has a flying soccer on the screen the happyer he would be.
I think at this point the argument is moot until we find the age of this kid.... If we are talking pre-teen, I am backing the guy who said "don't follow in your dad's footsteps" if only because he is probably choosing the only thing he knows rather than really choosing what he wants.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
If we are talking pre-teen, I am backing the guy who said "don't follow in your dad's footsteps" if only because he is probably choosing the only thing he knows rather than really choosing what he wants.
Yeah, agree with this. Besides, I gotta get back to my studies (still working on the library). I have a name now btw, I'm calling it Medio (pronounced similar to Media, but a long "O" sound at the end instead) - short for My Engine Designed In OpenGL. I may find a word that starts with M to replace "My" though.
Jeremy Falcon
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Albert Einstein. wrote:
So I changed my mind about No 1. Kids need to learn concepts of developement and it still be fun. They need to see results as well. Perhaps LEGO mindstorm would be a good idea.
How "young" is this kid?
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
This would be for an 8-10 year old.
E=mc2 -> BOOM
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This would be for an 8-10 year old.
E=mc2 -> BOOM
Albert Einstein. wrote:
This would be for an 8-10 year old.
Encourage him to find his own way, if he wants to program there is google, help him find what he wants. But at that age he should be trying to find his own path, not just following yours. Programming may be his path in life, if so, good for him, but this is the time to keep an open mind, find what he is good at, and interested in, in a variety of subjects... he may find he likes something else, that is good for him too. What HE wants is more important than what you, or we, want to show him.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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Super Lloyd wrote:
I am sorry but I start programing when I was 12, with I can't remember the language now.
You don't remember the first language you learned to program with? :wtf:
Super Lloyd wrote:
Why do you think it's difficult? too much C perhaps?
I never said it was difficult, that's been your whole argument since the get-go.
Super Lloyd wrote:
Because my main point was: "trying to suggest tips for quick (e.g. easy) and fun (e.g. visual) programing" (so (s)he will like it and continue).
You assume they'll enjoy GUI development. What if they don't? Also, that wasn't your point. You suggested not using C/C++ because it's tough. BTW, there's not much RAD/"Visual Programming" involved with game development. My suggestion is you learn how to use the language, before you learn how to use the language for Window's programming, etc.
Super Lloyd wrote:
And I have the feeling you are trying to transform this discussion into a discussion of merits between various language from a programmer point of view.
I have a feeling you don't really want to become a good programmer yourself.
Super Lloyd wrote:
Just so you know, I found Jeffry J. Brickley remarks about NeHe much more in relation with the kind of thing I had in mind (although as C++ oriented).
I've been through the NeHe site a LOT. I can say his tutorials have bug after bug in them. He even prefaces his articles by saying he's not a great programmer (probably someone like you who doesn't care about the "boring stuff"). The result is lousy code. The point is, that's a lousy site for someone to learn the proper ways to program with. Studying OGL AFTER they know how to program is one thing, not when you're new to all of it. Lastly, none of this has to do with your orignal point - which is C/C++ is too "tough" to start with.
Jeremy Falcon
Jeremy Falcon wrote:
Super Lloyd wrote: I am sorry but I start programing when I was 12, with I can't remember the language now. You don't remember the first language you learned to program with?
My dad threw all my stuff away a few times.. :sigh: So I started programing at ... perhaps it was ... I am not sure... But I stopped programing between ~14 to ~20. And that was a language specific to a dead french computer named TO7.
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Albert Einstein. wrote:
What would you tell them they should learn?
Hindi or Mandarin
:omg: That is :laugh:
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Well that's my experience with C++ between 1998 to 2002. I bought a few C++ book, I read them. Very long and arduous for little result except for "amazingly efficient collection using multi-heritance" right after page 345. BTW, is there a book on STL? I had to learn tidbit from the net.... Then cames .NET (and Java). Start from nothing, learn the syntax in 50 pages, build a nice, multithreaded, GUI application in the next 100 pages.... (all in just under 21 days, of course ;P)
Super Lloyd wrote:
BTW, is there a book on STL?
You're kidding, right? Is it really that hard to Google or Yahoo "STL book"?
cheers, Chris Maunder
CodeProject.com : C++ MVP