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Math and music and programming

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  • M Marc Clifton

    Josh Smith wrote:

    Anyone know how this stereotype came into being?

    Sure, because computers were originally created to solve math problems. The classic one being, if I shoot a 500 pound bomb at this trajectory and that velocity, where will it fall? Marc

    XPressTier

    Some people believe what the bible says. Literally. At least [with Wikipedia] you have the chance to correct the wiki -- Jörgen Sigvardsson
    People are just notoriously impossible. --DavidCrow
    There's NO excuse for not commenting your code. -- John Simmons / outlaw programmer

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    Christopher Duncan
    wrote on last edited by
    #24

    And of course, the modern day version of that question is, "If I launch a web site in partnership with a Fortune 500 company, will it bomb?"

    Author of The Career Programmer and Unite the Tribes www.PracticalStrategyConsulting.com

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    • J Josh Smith

      When I talk with non-technical people about the fact that I create software, they often assume that I must be a math wiz. It seems to be a common stereotype that people have about techies -- that we are all mathematical wizards. Of course, unless you are doing mathematical programming, you don't need to know much math to write code. Anyone know how this stereotype came into being? I find that my background in music helps me greatly with programming. The two activities involve similar thought processes; patterns, variations on a theme, rhythms, etc. Any musician-turned-programmers out there agree or disagree with that?

      :josh: My WPF Blog[^]

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      Chris Losinger
      wrote on last edited by
      #25

      Josh Smith wrote:

      Of course, unless you are doing mathematical programming, you don't need to know much math to write code.

      there's a lot of mathematical theory in most graduate-level programming courses and cutting-edge algorithm design. even in undergrad, ten years ago, i had to take a ton of calculus, discrete math, and stats (physics, too) - it was essentially an engineering degree. so, if you get a degree in CS, you're going to have seen a lot more math than the average person will. and if you want to be able to do anything in graphics or sound processing, you're going to have to know quite a bit of math, because the scientists and researchers who come up with all the cool new processing algorithms don't write their papers in C++ - they write them in mathematical notation. of course, nobody needs any of it to write web pages.

      Josh Smith wrote:

      Any musician-turned-programmers out there agree or disagree with that?

      i don't know if musical ability helps programming ability or vice versa. actually, i suspect that they are both due to some other, lower-level ability; a tendency to make a certain kind of mental model of a problem, maybe.

      image processing | blogging

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      • K Kevin McFarlane

        A top programmer once told me that the best programmers are failed mathematicians! :)

        Kevin

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        Christopher Duncan
        wrote on last edited by
        #26

        Yet another parallel. They also say the best bass players are failed guitarists. :-D

        Author of The Career Programmer and Unite the Tribes www.PracticalStrategyConsulting.com

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        • J Josh Smith

          When I talk with non-technical people about the fact that I create software, they often assume that I must be a math wiz. It seems to be a common stereotype that people have about techies -- that we are all mathematical wizards. Of course, unless you are doing mathematical programming, you don't need to know much math to write code. Anyone know how this stereotype came into being? I find that my background in music helps me greatly with programming. The two activities involve similar thought processes; patterns, variations on a theme, rhythms, etc. Any musician-turned-programmers out there agree or disagree with that?

          :josh: My WPF Blog[^]

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          Christopher Duncan
          wrote on last edited by
          #27

          Of course, this gets a little close to the old art versus science debate, but I've also found that programming has much in common with music from the creative side of things. I don't analyze it, but rather just recognize the similarities in the process involving the gratification of creating, productivity and the state of flow, and even inspiration and intuition. I think part of the reason that musicians are drawn to programming is that it's simply another way to express creativity. And one that actually pays money. :-D

          Author of The Career Programmer and Unite the Tribes www.PracticalStrategyConsulting.com

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          • J Josh Smith

            When I talk with non-technical people about the fact that I create software, they often assume that I must be a math wiz. It seems to be a common stereotype that people have about techies -- that we are all mathematical wizards. Of course, unless you are doing mathematical programming, you don't need to know much math to write code. Anyone know how this stereotype came into being? I find that my background in music helps me greatly with programming. The two activities involve similar thought processes; patterns, variations on a theme, rhythms, etc. Any musician-turned-programmers out there agree or disagree with that?

            :josh: My WPF Blog[^]

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            Blake Miller
            wrote on last edited by
            #28

            I don't compose music, but I played three instruments over my lifetime. I can play the piano somewhat competently and love the variations of music. Anyway, I agree with you. People with good pattern recognition skills probably make better programmers perhaps than those with good math skills. However, get a math person for the FFT algorithm ... :rolleyes: I see good coders and poor code all day long. I can't put a finger on what makes some people better at it than others, and it seems to have almost no correlaiton with how LONG they have been programming. Some experienced people seem to keep generating the same crappy code...

            Any sufficiently gross incompetence is nearly indistinguishable from malice.

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            • J Josh Smith

              Kevin McFarlane wrote:

              A top programmer once told me that the best programmers are failed mathematicians!

              Do you agree with him/her?

              :josh: My WPF Blog[^]

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              Kevin McFarlane
              wrote on last edited by
              #29

              Well, I don't know whether he was being entirely serious!

              Kevin

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              • D David Stone

                Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:

                Including the Dean I told where to put the grading system on my way out.

                Heh. I'd love to do that. I hate the curve. I'm typically screwed by it, as I'm a good enough student to get by without doing a whole lot of studying (I'm lazy. ;P), but I go to a school where everybody lives to study.

                225 years ago, we set an example for the rest of the world by creating a country where everyone could vote...
                Well, except for women and black people, but we fixed that!
                -Adam Duritz, of Counting Crows

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                Blake Miller
                wrote on last edited by
                #30

                There really is more to doing your homework and practice samples than to just get a good grade on a test. Unfortunaltey (or not...), it took me the first 5 years of my 11 in college to figure that out. But hey, if I had figured that out earlier, I might have become a physician and then I wouldn't be here now, would I .... :omg:

                Any sufficiently gross incompetence is nearly indistinguishable from malice.

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                • B Blake Miller

                  I don't compose music, but I played three instruments over my lifetime. I can play the piano somewhat competently and love the variations of music. Anyway, I agree with you. People with good pattern recognition skills probably make better programmers perhaps than those with good math skills. However, get a math person for the FFT algorithm ... :rolleyes: I see good coders and poor code all day long. I can't put a finger on what makes some people better at it than others, and it seems to have almost no correlaiton with how LONG they have been programming. Some experienced people seem to keep generating the same crappy code...

                  Any sufficiently gross incompetence is nearly indistinguishable from malice.

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                  Josh Smith
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #31

                  Blake Miller wrote:

                  Some experienced people seem to keep generating the same crappy code...

                  Ain't that the truth!

                  :josh: My WPF Blog[^]

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                  • J Josh Smith

                    When I talk with non-technical people about the fact that I create software, they often assume that I must be a math wiz. It seems to be a common stereotype that people have about techies -- that we are all mathematical wizards. Of course, unless you are doing mathematical programming, you don't need to know much math to write code. Anyone know how this stereotype came into being? I find that my background in music helps me greatly with programming. The two activities involve similar thought processes; patterns, variations on a theme, rhythms, etc. Any musician-turned-programmers out there agree or disagree with that?

                    :josh: My WPF Blog[^]

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                    Kevin McFarlane
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #32

                    Though you don't need to be a mathematician to be a good programmer, a knowledge of maths does no harm, and a lot of the theory behind programming is mathematical.

                    Kevin

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                    • J Josh Smith

                      When I talk with non-technical people about the fact that I create software, they often assume that I must be a math wiz. It seems to be a common stereotype that people have about techies -- that we are all mathematical wizards. Of course, unless you are doing mathematical programming, you don't need to know much math to write code. Anyone know how this stereotype came into being? I find that my background in music helps me greatly with programming. The two activities involve similar thought processes; patterns, variations on a theme, rhythms, etc. Any musician-turned-programmers out there agree or disagree with that?

                      :josh: My WPF Blog[^]

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                      David Crow
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #33

                      Josh Smith wrote:

                      It seems to be a common stereotype that people have about techies -- that we are all mathematical wizards.

                      I don't know if "wizard" is correct, but I can't think of any computer scientist/programmer that isn't (e.g., Knuth, Dijkstra, Weiss, Stroustrup, Rivest, Floyd, Wirth, and Sedgewick just to name a few).

                      Josh Smith wrote:

                      Of course, unless you are doing mathematical programming, you don't need to know much math to write code.

                      I disagree. I find myself constantly being unable to solve problems because of my deficiencies in math. I once had a professor that told me I was a good programmer but that in order to become a great one, I needed more math.

                      Josh Smith wrote:

                      Anyone know how this stereotype came into being?

                      Because the fields overlap so much. It might also have something to do with the binary number system being invented by a mathematician.


                      "Money talks. When my money starts to talk, I get a bill to shut it up." - Frank

                      "Judge not by the eye but by the heart." - Native American Proverb

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                      • K Kevin McFarlane

                        Though you don't need to be a mathematician to be a good programmer, a knowledge of maths does no harm, and a lot of the theory behind programming is mathematical.

                        Kevin

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                        Josh Smith
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #34

                        Kevin McFarlane wrote:

                        Though you don't need to be a mathematician to be a good programmer, a knowledge of maths does no harm, and a lot of the theory behind programming is mathematical.

                        I agree with that. I wasn't implying that knowledge of math is in any way detrimental to a programmer, just not necessary.

                        :josh: My WPF Blog[^]

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                        • D David Crow

                          Josh Smith wrote:

                          It seems to be a common stereotype that people have about techies -- that we are all mathematical wizards.

                          I don't know if "wizard" is correct, but I can't think of any computer scientist/programmer that isn't (e.g., Knuth, Dijkstra, Weiss, Stroustrup, Rivest, Floyd, Wirth, and Sedgewick just to name a few).

                          Josh Smith wrote:

                          Of course, unless you are doing mathematical programming, you don't need to know much math to write code.

                          I disagree. I find myself constantly being unable to solve problems because of my deficiencies in math. I once had a professor that told me I was a good programmer but that in order to become a great one, I needed more math.

                          Josh Smith wrote:

                          Anyone know how this stereotype came into being?

                          Because the fields overlap so much. It might also have something to do with the binary number system being invented by a mathematician.


                          "Money talks. When my money starts to talk, I get a bill to shut it up." - Frank

                          "Judge not by the eye but by the heart." - Native American Proverb

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                          Josh Smith
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #35

                          DavidCrow wrote:

                          I can't think of any computer scientist/programmer that isn't

                          I don't clump those two terms together. A computer scientist is one thing, a programmer is something else. Sure, they are both interested in software, but computer scientists are mostly concerned with theory and algorithms, while programmers are concerned with deadlines and features.

                          DavidCrow wrote:

                          I disagree. I find myself constantly being unable to solve problems because of my deficiencies in math.

                          Interesting. Can you cite some examples of where a lack of math knowledge inhibited your ability to solve a programming problem? I'm curious what you have in mind.

                          :josh: My WPF Blog[^]

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                          • D David Crow

                            Josh Smith wrote:

                            It seems to be a common stereotype that people have about techies -- that we are all mathematical wizards.

                            I don't know if "wizard" is correct, but I can't think of any computer scientist/programmer that isn't (e.g., Knuth, Dijkstra, Weiss, Stroustrup, Rivest, Floyd, Wirth, and Sedgewick just to name a few).

                            Josh Smith wrote:

                            Of course, unless you are doing mathematical programming, you don't need to know much math to write code.

                            I disagree. I find myself constantly being unable to solve problems because of my deficiencies in math. I once had a professor that told me I was a good programmer but that in order to become a great one, I needed more math.

                            Josh Smith wrote:

                            Anyone know how this stereotype came into being?

                            Because the fields overlap so much. It might also have something to do with the binary number system being invented by a mathematician.


                            "Money talks. When my money starts to talk, I get a bill to shut it up." - Frank

                            "Judge not by the eye but by the heart." - Native American Proverb

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                            Kevin McFarlane
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #36

                            DavidCrow wrote:

                            I can't think of any computer scientist/programmer that isn't (e.g., Knuth, Dijkstra, Weiss, Stroustrup, Rivest, Floyd, Wirth, and Sedgewick just to name a few).

                            That's true and good maths is definitely required at programming language creator/designer level. But programmers in general don't require it in order to be good programmers.

                            Kevin

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                            • E El Corazon

                              Marc Clifton wrote:

                              Well, see, now that's why a simple math problem turned into several million lines of Fortran code.

                              That is why I don't come cheap. :) and the Fortran code got translated to C a long time ago. ;P

                              _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)

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                              Dan Neely
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #37

                              Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:

                              That is why I don't come cheap. and the Fortran code got translated to C a long time ago.

                              Maybe someof the production code did, but not all of it. I know alot of climate modeling is still in fortran, and IIRC the nuke simulations were never ported. I had to deal with legacy fortran twice in my astrophysics class in college.

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                              • J Josh Smith

                                When I talk with non-technical people about the fact that I create software, they often assume that I must be a math wiz. It seems to be a common stereotype that people have about techies -- that we are all mathematical wizards. Of course, unless you are doing mathematical programming, you don't need to know much math to write code. Anyone know how this stereotype came into being? I find that my background in music helps me greatly with programming. The two activities involve similar thought processes; patterns, variations on a theme, rhythms, etc. Any musician-turned-programmers out there agree or disagree with that?

                                :josh: My WPF Blog[^]

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                                StevenS_Dev
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #38

                                I also have a heavy music backround. For me, programming and music (and now I do photography) allow me to be creative. I also did fairly well in math, but never really enjoyed it.

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                                • J Josh Smith

                                  DavidCrow wrote:

                                  I can't think of any computer scientist/programmer that isn't

                                  I don't clump those two terms together. A computer scientist is one thing, a programmer is something else. Sure, they are both interested in software, but computer scientists are mostly concerned with theory and algorithms, while programmers are concerned with deadlines and features.

                                  DavidCrow wrote:

                                  I disagree. I find myself constantly being unable to solve problems because of my deficiencies in math.

                                  Interesting. Can you cite some examples of where a lack of math knowledge inhibited your ability to solve a programming problem? I'm curious what you have in mind.

                                  :josh: My WPF Blog[^]

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                                  David Crow
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #39

                                  Josh Smith wrote:

                                  I don't clump those two terms together. A computer scientist is one thing, a programmer is something else. Sure, they are both interested in software, but computer scientists are mostly concerned with theory and algorithms, while programmers are concerned with deadlines and features.

                                  Here is another take on that.


                                  "Money talks. When my money starts to talk, I get a bill to shut it up." - Frank

                                  "Judge not by the eye but by the heart." - Native American Proverb

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                                  • D Dan Neely

                                    Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:

                                    That is why I don't come cheap. and the Fortran code got translated to C a long time ago.

                                    Maybe someof the production code did, but not all of it. I know alot of climate modeling is still in fortran, and IIRC the nuke simulations were never ported. I had to deal with legacy fortran twice in my astrophysics class in college.

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                                    Stuart Dootson
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #40

                                    dan neely wrote:

                                    I had to deal with legacy fortran twice in my astrophysics class in college.

                                    I'm still dealing with legacy Fortran (in real-time engine models)! Fortunately, not on a daily basis.

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                                    • J Josh Smith

                                      When I talk with non-technical people about the fact that I create software, they often assume that I must be a math wiz. It seems to be a common stereotype that people have about techies -- that we are all mathematical wizards. Of course, unless you are doing mathematical programming, you don't need to know much math to write code. Anyone know how this stereotype came into being? I find that my background in music helps me greatly with programming. The two activities involve similar thought processes; patterns, variations on a theme, rhythms, etc. Any musician-turned-programmers out there agree or disagree with that?

                                      :josh: My WPF Blog[^]

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                                      Member 96
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #41

                                      Yeah I agree entirely with everything you said. People do have this odd thought that programming = math. I'm so entirely hopeless at math it's not even funny, but I do like to play guitar.

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                                      • D Dan Neely

                                        Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:

                                        That is why I don't come cheap. and the Fortran code got translated to C a long time ago.

                                        Maybe someof the production code did, but not all of it. I know alot of climate modeling is still in fortran, and IIRC the nuke simulations were never ported. I had to deal with legacy fortran twice in my astrophysics class in college.

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                                        El Corazon
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #42

                                        dan neely wrote:

                                        Maybe someof the production code did, but not all of it. I know alot of climate modeling is still in fortran, and IIRC the nuke simulations were never ported. I had to deal with legacy fortran twice in my astrophysics class in college.

                                        It all depends on the programmer assigned and the scale of legacy code, I've been doing most of the Fortran porting locally, so if it doesn't come to me, it stays in Fortran, Pascal, or Ada, if it comes to me it gets ported to C or C++.

                                        _________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)

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                                        • D David Crow

                                          Josh Smith wrote:

                                          I don't clump those two terms together. A computer scientist is one thing, a programmer is something else. Sure, they are both interested in software, but computer scientists are mostly concerned with theory and algorithms, while programmers are concerned with deadlines and features.

                                          Here is another take on that.


                                          "Money talks. When my money starts to talk, I get a bill to shut it up." - Frank

                                          "Judge not by the eye but by the heart." - Native American Proverb

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                                          Josh Smith
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #43

                                          DavidCrow wrote:

                                          Here is another take on that.

                                          Yeah, I agree with that explanation, to a certain degree. Of course any document on the distinction between a computer scientist and a programmer, which comes from a web site with .edu in it is bound to glorify the former and trivialize the latter. I used to be in the academic world as an instructor of C++ programming for career changers. I taught people how to write code that would get them jobs: using STL, MFC, COM objects, etc. Programmer stuff, not CS stuff. During my stay in that world, I noticed that many CS professors look down their noses at "programmers." Many of them see professional programmers as vile corporate sell-outs. I think this attitude was largely fueled by their general disdain for capitalism, corporate culture, etc. The supposed intellectual chasm between those two worlds seemed to be a secondary reason for their dislike of programmers. That attitude amongst those professors always seemed, to me, to be a side effect of never leaving the academic world -- a world of ideals and intellectual snobbery.

                                          :josh: My WPF Blog[^]

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