Math and music and programming
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When I talk with non-technical people about the fact that I create software, they often assume that I must be a math wiz. It seems to be a common stereotype that people have about techies -- that we are all mathematical wizards. Of course, unless you are doing mathematical programming, you don't need to know much math to write code. Anyone know how this stereotype came into being? I find that my background in music helps me greatly with programming. The two activities involve similar thought processes; patterns, variations on a theme, rhythms, etc. Any musician-turned-programmers out there agree or disagree with that?
:josh: My WPF Blog[^]
Music is mathematical. I started as a music major, and then realized I was better at Math so I changed my major. But once I started programming as part of the math cirriculum it was all over. All I did was code. And math and programming go hand in hand. For a long time there wasn't a CS department at the colleges so you learned it in the math classes. My first programming class was a math class. So they definately go hand in hand. Bits and Binary are number systems which is a mathematical concept. But you bring up an ironic relationship. Music is math in its relationships, its only when personalized that it begins to be a form of expression. But taking theory classes, there wasn't much different between music and math and programming. In fact music is also programming.
This statement is false.
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David Stone wrote:
To me, that's a huge indicator that the test needs to be redesigned.
It was... by firing 60% of administrative supporting staff. :) Including the Dean I told where to put the grading system on my way out. :cool:
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
Including the Dean I told where to put the grading system on my way out.
Heh. I'd love to do that. I hate the curve. I'm typically screwed by it, as I'm a good enough student to get by without doing a whole lot of studying (I'm lazy. ;P), but I go to a school where everybody lives to study.
225 years ago, we set an example for the rest of the world by creating a country where everyone could vote...
Well, except for women and black people, but we fixed that!
-Adam Duritz, of Counting Crows -
ensger wrote:
You know the book 'Goedel, Escher, Bach' of (I think) Dennet/Hofstatter?
I've been planning to read that book for years. It looks very intriguing. Have you read it?
:josh: My WPF Blog[^]
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Marc Clifton wrote:
Well, see, now that's why a simple math problem turned into several million lines of Fortran code.
That is why I don't come cheap. :) and the Fortran code got translated to C a long time ago. ;P
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
When I was in College they just switched from Fortran to C. All of the guys the year before me were writing Fortran and I got to write C. :)
This statement is false.
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Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
Including the Dean I told where to put the grading system on my way out.
Heh. I'd love to do that. I hate the curve. I'm typically screwed by it, as I'm a good enough student to get by without doing a whole lot of studying (I'm lazy. ;P), but I go to a school where everybody lives to study.
225 years ago, we set an example for the rest of the world by creating a country where everyone could vote...
Well, except for women and black people, but we fixed that!
-Adam Duritz, of Counting CrowsDavid Stone wrote:
I'm typically screwed by it, as I'm a good enough student to get by without doing a whole lot of studying (I'm lazy. ),
Same here, that is why I was a B+ and A- student, except for programming where I had a natural knack, so aced anything put in front of me in school. But competing against other students going back for 2nd time calc I and me still not being able to Ace anything.... it was like the lottery... 600 students all trying for the 100 slots to move on. and every semester there were more trying, I got fed up, and it got so huge they got caught. So all worked out reasonably well. At least I was not dumb enough to take the offer of a "free pass" to the next level if I were to take tests for the football team. I heard when it all fell apart those students got hit hard too.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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Josh Smith wrote:
Anyone know how this stereotype came into being?
Sure, because computers were originally created to solve math problems. The classic one being, if I shoot a 500 pound bomb at this trajectory and that velocity, where will it fall? Marc
Some people believe what the bible says. Literally. At least [with Wikipedia] you have the chance to correct the wiki -- Jörgen Sigvardsson
People are just notoriously impossible. --DavidCrow
There's NO excuse for not commenting your code. -- John Simmons / outlaw programmerAnd of course, the modern day version of that question is, "If I launch a web site in partnership with a Fortune 500 company, will it bomb?"
Author of The Career Programmer and Unite the Tribes www.PracticalStrategyConsulting.com
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When I talk with non-technical people about the fact that I create software, they often assume that I must be a math wiz. It seems to be a common stereotype that people have about techies -- that we are all mathematical wizards. Of course, unless you are doing mathematical programming, you don't need to know much math to write code. Anyone know how this stereotype came into being? I find that my background in music helps me greatly with programming. The two activities involve similar thought processes; patterns, variations on a theme, rhythms, etc. Any musician-turned-programmers out there agree or disagree with that?
:josh: My WPF Blog[^]
Josh Smith wrote:
Of course, unless you are doing mathematical programming, you don't need to know much math to write code.
there's a lot of mathematical theory in most graduate-level programming courses and cutting-edge algorithm design. even in undergrad, ten years ago, i had to take a ton of calculus, discrete math, and stats (physics, too) - it was essentially an engineering degree. so, if you get a degree in CS, you're going to have seen a lot more math than the average person will. and if you want to be able to do anything in graphics or sound processing, you're going to have to know quite a bit of math, because the scientists and researchers who come up with all the cool new processing algorithms don't write their papers in C++ - they write them in mathematical notation. of course, nobody needs any of it to write web pages.
Josh Smith wrote:
Any musician-turned-programmers out there agree or disagree with that?
i don't know if musical ability helps programming ability or vice versa. actually, i suspect that they are both due to some other, lower-level ability; a tendency to make a certain kind of mental model of a problem, maybe.
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A top programmer once told me that the best programmers are failed mathematicians! :)
Kevin
Yet another parallel. They also say the best bass players are failed guitarists. :-D
Author of The Career Programmer and Unite the Tribes www.PracticalStrategyConsulting.com
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When I talk with non-technical people about the fact that I create software, they often assume that I must be a math wiz. It seems to be a common stereotype that people have about techies -- that we are all mathematical wizards. Of course, unless you are doing mathematical programming, you don't need to know much math to write code. Anyone know how this stereotype came into being? I find that my background in music helps me greatly with programming. The two activities involve similar thought processes; patterns, variations on a theme, rhythms, etc. Any musician-turned-programmers out there agree or disagree with that?
:josh: My WPF Blog[^]
Of course, this gets a little close to the old art versus science debate, but I've also found that programming has much in common with music from the creative side of things. I don't analyze it, but rather just recognize the similarities in the process involving the gratification of creating, productivity and the state of flow, and even inspiration and intuition. I think part of the reason that musicians are drawn to programming is that it's simply another way to express creativity. And one that actually pays money. :-D
Author of The Career Programmer and Unite the Tribes www.PracticalStrategyConsulting.com
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When I talk with non-technical people about the fact that I create software, they often assume that I must be a math wiz. It seems to be a common stereotype that people have about techies -- that we are all mathematical wizards. Of course, unless you are doing mathematical programming, you don't need to know much math to write code. Anyone know how this stereotype came into being? I find that my background in music helps me greatly with programming. The two activities involve similar thought processes; patterns, variations on a theme, rhythms, etc. Any musician-turned-programmers out there agree or disagree with that?
:josh: My WPF Blog[^]
I don't compose music, but I played three instruments over my lifetime. I can play the piano somewhat competently and love the variations of music. Anyway, I agree with you. People with good pattern recognition skills probably make better programmers perhaps than those with good math skills. However, get a math person for the FFT algorithm ... :rolleyes: I see good coders and poor code all day long. I can't put a finger on what makes some people better at it than others, and it seems to have almost no correlaiton with how LONG they have been programming. Some experienced people seem to keep generating the same crappy code...
Any sufficiently gross incompetence is nearly indistinguishable from malice.
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Kevin McFarlane wrote:
A top programmer once told me that the best programmers are failed mathematicians!
Do you agree with him/her?
:josh: My WPF Blog[^]
Well, I don't know whether he was being entirely serious!
Kevin
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Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
Including the Dean I told where to put the grading system on my way out.
Heh. I'd love to do that. I hate the curve. I'm typically screwed by it, as I'm a good enough student to get by without doing a whole lot of studying (I'm lazy. ;P), but I go to a school where everybody lives to study.
225 years ago, we set an example for the rest of the world by creating a country where everyone could vote...
Well, except for women and black people, but we fixed that!
-Adam Duritz, of Counting CrowsThere really is more to doing your homework and practice samples than to just get a good grade on a test. Unfortunaltey (or not...), it took me the first 5 years of my 11 in college to figure that out. But hey, if I had figured that out earlier, I might have become a physician and then I wouldn't be here now, would I .... :omg:
Any sufficiently gross incompetence is nearly indistinguishable from malice.
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I don't compose music, but I played three instruments over my lifetime. I can play the piano somewhat competently and love the variations of music. Anyway, I agree with you. People with good pattern recognition skills probably make better programmers perhaps than those with good math skills. However, get a math person for the FFT algorithm ... :rolleyes: I see good coders and poor code all day long. I can't put a finger on what makes some people better at it than others, and it seems to have almost no correlaiton with how LONG they have been programming. Some experienced people seem to keep generating the same crappy code...
Any sufficiently gross incompetence is nearly indistinguishable from malice.
Blake Miller wrote:
Some experienced people seem to keep generating the same crappy code...
Ain't that the truth!
:josh: My WPF Blog[^]
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When I talk with non-technical people about the fact that I create software, they often assume that I must be a math wiz. It seems to be a common stereotype that people have about techies -- that we are all mathematical wizards. Of course, unless you are doing mathematical programming, you don't need to know much math to write code. Anyone know how this stereotype came into being? I find that my background in music helps me greatly with programming. The two activities involve similar thought processes; patterns, variations on a theme, rhythms, etc. Any musician-turned-programmers out there agree or disagree with that?
:josh: My WPF Blog[^]
Though you don't need to be a mathematician to be a good programmer, a knowledge of maths does no harm, and a lot of the theory behind programming is mathematical.
Kevin
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When I talk with non-technical people about the fact that I create software, they often assume that I must be a math wiz. It seems to be a common stereotype that people have about techies -- that we are all mathematical wizards. Of course, unless you are doing mathematical programming, you don't need to know much math to write code. Anyone know how this stereotype came into being? I find that my background in music helps me greatly with programming. The two activities involve similar thought processes; patterns, variations on a theme, rhythms, etc. Any musician-turned-programmers out there agree or disagree with that?
:josh: My WPF Blog[^]
Josh Smith wrote:
It seems to be a common stereotype that people have about techies -- that we are all mathematical wizards.
I don't know if "wizard" is correct, but I can't think of any computer scientist/programmer that isn't (e.g., Knuth, Dijkstra, Weiss, Stroustrup, Rivest, Floyd, Wirth, and Sedgewick just to name a few).
Josh Smith wrote:
Of course, unless you are doing mathematical programming, you don't need to know much math to write code.
I disagree. I find myself constantly being unable to solve problems because of my deficiencies in math. I once had a professor that told me I was a good programmer but that in order to become a great one, I needed more math.
Josh Smith wrote:
Anyone know how this stereotype came into being?
Because the fields overlap so much. It might also have something to do with the binary number system being invented by a mathematician.
"Money talks. When my money starts to talk, I get a bill to shut it up." - Frank
"Judge not by the eye but by the heart." - Native American Proverb
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Though you don't need to be a mathematician to be a good programmer, a knowledge of maths does no harm, and a lot of the theory behind programming is mathematical.
Kevin
Kevin McFarlane wrote:
Though you don't need to be a mathematician to be a good programmer, a knowledge of maths does no harm, and a lot of the theory behind programming is mathematical.
I agree with that. I wasn't implying that knowledge of math is in any way detrimental to a programmer, just not necessary.
:josh: My WPF Blog[^]
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Josh Smith wrote:
It seems to be a common stereotype that people have about techies -- that we are all mathematical wizards.
I don't know if "wizard" is correct, but I can't think of any computer scientist/programmer that isn't (e.g., Knuth, Dijkstra, Weiss, Stroustrup, Rivest, Floyd, Wirth, and Sedgewick just to name a few).
Josh Smith wrote:
Of course, unless you are doing mathematical programming, you don't need to know much math to write code.
I disagree. I find myself constantly being unable to solve problems because of my deficiencies in math. I once had a professor that told me I was a good programmer but that in order to become a great one, I needed more math.
Josh Smith wrote:
Anyone know how this stereotype came into being?
Because the fields overlap so much. It might also have something to do with the binary number system being invented by a mathematician.
"Money talks. When my money starts to talk, I get a bill to shut it up." - Frank
"Judge not by the eye but by the heart." - Native American Proverb
DavidCrow wrote:
I can't think of any computer scientist/programmer that isn't
I don't clump those two terms together. A computer scientist is one thing, a programmer is something else. Sure, they are both interested in software, but computer scientists are mostly concerned with theory and algorithms, while programmers are concerned with deadlines and features.
DavidCrow wrote:
I disagree. I find myself constantly being unable to solve problems because of my deficiencies in math.
Interesting. Can you cite some examples of where a lack of math knowledge inhibited your ability to solve a programming problem? I'm curious what you have in mind.
:josh: My WPF Blog[^]
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Josh Smith wrote:
It seems to be a common stereotype that people have about techies -- that we are all mathematical wizards.
I don't know if "wizard" is correct, but I can't think of any computer scientist/programmer that isn't (e.g., Knuth, Dijkstra, Weiss, Stroustrup, Rivest, Floyd, Wirth, and Sedgewick just to name a few).
Josh Smith wrote:
Of course, unless you are doing mathematical programming, you don't need to know much math to write code.
I disagree. I find myself constantly being unable to solve problems because of my deficiencies in math. I once had a professor that told me I was a good programmer but that in order to become a great one, I needed more math.
Josh Smith wrote:
Anyone know how this stereotype came into being?
Because the fields overlap so much. It might also have something to do with the binary number system being invented by a mathematician.
"Money talks. When my money starts to talk, I get a bill to shut it up." - Frank
"Judge not by the eye but by the heart." - Native American Proverb
DavidCrow wrote:
I can't think of any computer scientist/programmer that isn't (e.g., Knuth, Dijkstra, Weiss, Stroustrup, Rivest, Floyd, Wirth, and Sedgewick just to name a few).
That's true and good maths is definitely required at programming language creator/designer level. But programmers in general don't require it in order to be good programmers.
Kevin
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Marc Clifton wrote:
Well, see, now that's why a simple math problem turned into several million lines of Fortran code.
That is why I don't come cheap. :) and the Fortran code got translated to C a long time ago. ;P
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
That is why I don't come cheap. and the Fortran code got translated to C a long time ago.
Maybe someof the production code did, but not all of it. I know alot of climate modeling is still in fortran, and IIRC the nuke simulations were never ported. I had to deal with legacy fortran twice in my astrophysics class in college.
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When I talk with non-technical people about the fact that I create software, they often assume that I must be a math wiz. It seems to be a common stereotype that people have about techies -- that we are all mathematical wizards. Of course, unless you are doing mathematical programming, you don't need to know much math to write code. Anyone know how this stereotype came into being? I find that my background in music helps me greatly with programming. The two activities involve similar thought processes; patterns, variations on a theme, rhythms, etc. Any musician-turned-programmers out there agree or disagree with that?
:josh: My WPF Blog[^]
I also have a heavy music backround. For me, programming and music (and now I do photography) allow me to be creative. I also did fairly well in math, but never really enjoyed it.