Math and music and programming
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When I talk with non-technical people about the fact that I create software, they often assume that I must be a math wiz. It seems to be a common stereotype that people have about techies -- that we are all mathematical wizards. Of course, unless you are doing mathematical programming, you don't need to know much math to write code. Anyone know how this stereotype came into being? I find that my background in music helps me greatly with programming. The two activities involve similar thought processes; patterns, variations on a theme, rhythms, etc. Any musician-turned-programmers out there agree or disagree with that?
:josh: My WPF Blog[^]
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Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
That is why I don't come cheap. and the Fortran code got translated to C a long time ago.
Maybe someof the production code did, but not all of it. I know alot of climate modeling is still in fortran, and IIRC the nuke simulations were never ported. I had to deal with legacy fortran twice in my astrophysics class in college.
dan neely wrote:
Maybe someof the production code did, but not all of it. I know alot of climate modeling is still in fortran, and IIRC the nuke simulations were never ported. I had to deal with legacy fortran twice in my astrophysics class in college.
It all depends on the programmer assigned and the scale of legacy code, I've been doing most of the Fortran porting locally, so if it doesn't come to me, it stays in Fortran, Pascal, or Ada, if it comes to me it gets ported to C or C++.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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Josh Smith wrote:
I don't clump those two terms together. A computer scientist is one thing, a programmer is something else. Sure, they are both interested in software, but computer scientists are mostly concerned with theory and algorithms, while programmers are concerned with deadlines and features.
Here is another take on that.
"Money talks. When my money starts to talk, I get a bill to shut it up." - Frank
"Judge not by the eye but by the heart." - Native American Proverb
DavidCrow wrote:
Here is another take on that.
Yeah, I agree with that explanation, to a certain degree. Of course any document on the distinction between a computer scientist and a programmer, which comes from a web site with .edu in it is bound to glorify the former and trivialize the latter. I used to be in the academic world as an instructor of C++ programming for career changers. I taught people how to write code that would get them jobs: using STL, MFC, COM objects, etc. Programmer stuff, not CS stuff. During my stay in that world, I noticed that many CS professors look down their noses at "programmers." Many of them see professional programmers as vile corporate sell-outs. I think this attitude was largely fueled by their general disdain for capitalism, corporate culture, etc. The supposed intellectual chasm between those two worlds seemed to be a secondary reason for their dislike of programmers. That attitude amongst those professors always seemed, to me, to be a side effect of never leaving the academic world -- a world of ideals and intellectual snobbery.
:josh: My WPF Blog[^]
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When I talk with non-technical people about the fact that I create software, they often assume that I must be a math wiz. It seems to be a common stereotype that people have about techies -- that we are all mathematical wizards. Of course, unless you are doing mathematical programming, you don't need to know much math to write code. Anyone know how this stereotype came into being? I find that my background in music helps me greatly with programming. The two activities involve similar thought processes; patterns, variations on a theme, rhythms, etc. Any musician-turned-programmers out there agree or disagree with that?
:josh: My WPF Blog[^]
Because a lot of people wanted to make as much money as you did. They tried getting majors in Computer Science and the math requirements blew them out. Or they heard about the math requirements from someone else and that blew them out. If you take the traditional paths into writing software, before it's all done math will be no stranger to you in fact you might even be a master of most forms of math certainly anything that can be described in 3 dimensions, modeled or simulated. Don't deny the incredibly strong emphasis on math. It's real and it's there. Simple string parsing is more math than 90% of people want and we do it all day long. Strings in C is just plain math. Linked lists, pointers, memory, threads, processes, chunks, cylinders, volumes. It's math! Math... Kicks Ass!!!:rose:
I only read CP for the articles. Code-frog System Architects, Inc.
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When I talk with non-technical people about the fact that I create software, they often assume that I must be a math wiz. It seems to be a common stereotype that people have about techies -- that we are all mathematical wizards. Of course, unless you are doing mathematical programming, you don't need to know much math to write code. Anyone know how this stereotype came into being? I find that my background in music helps me greatly with programming. The two activities involve similar thought processes; patterns, variations on a theme, rhythms, etc. Any musician-turned-programmers out there agree or disagree with that?
:josh: My WPF Blog[^]
Josh Smith wrote:
I find that my background in music helps me greatly with programming. The two activities involve similar thought processes; patterns, variations on a theme, rhythms, etc. Any musician-turned-programmers out there agree or disagree with that?
I never thought of my music background helping me....but I supposed it has a great deal. I always thought my language background helped me more though. I was a Spanish major in college before I knew anything about computers. Heck, at that point all I knew was how to type and barely use my email. Looking back I realize -- programming anything is just another language learned...another interpretation. Aubrey
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It's a curve. If enough people scored 100% on the final, then the dude who gets one question wrong gets screwed. On the other hand, if everybody scores a 40% on the final, then their scores are As and the guy who scored a 36% gets a B, etc. Here's a great article[^] that shows why it's popular and why it also sucks. The most drastic example I can think of is a chemistry major I know. Her Organic Chemistry midterm score was a 10% and she got a B. That's just stupid. To me, that's a huge indicator that the test needs to be redesigned.
225 years ago, we set an example for the rest of the world by creating a country where everyone could vote...
Well, except for women and black people, but we fixed that!
-Adam Duritz, of Counting CrowsI agree. I had a similar experience once in a graduate Statistics class (ugh). We started out with 5 students (the minimum needed to keep the class) and two dropped out shortly after. The student above me got an 82 (A), I got a 78 (A) and the third student got a 65 (C). I can't complain, but Sadistics is not my thing and I thought the class was too hard. The other two were graduate Stats majors and I only took it for the electives. But yours was way, way off.
"I know which side I want to win regardless of how many wrongs they have to commit to achieve it." - Stan Shannon
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Music is mathematical. I started as a music major, and then realized I was better at Math so I changed my major. But once I started programming as part of the math cirriculum it was all over. All I did was code. And math and programming go hand in hand. For a long time there wasn't a CS department at the colleges so you learned it in the math classes. My first programming class was a math class. So they definately go hand in hand. Bits and Binary are number systems which is a mathematical concept. But you bring up an ironic relationship. Music is math in its relationships, its only when personalized that it begins to be a form of expression. But taking theory classes, there wasn't much different between music and math and programming. In fact music is also programming.
This statement is false.
Relating Math, Music and Programming.... in my case, not long ago, I've indulged in Mathematics coz I don't have a choice, I am an engineering student that time.... our first programming lesson is about math... i hate the header "math.h"....(that was long time ago)... I think the analysis skill is the link between Mathematics and Programming.... in my opinion; Extreme Programming (producing the simplest running program) and Reverse Engineering is synonymous.... In such case as music.... check out this link.... maybe programming is immediately proportional to performance level.... :rolleyes: by the way this is me....:suss: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFUHYG6PDfc[^]
"We are all the same in different ways" Kuroro Rucilful
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I also have a heavy music backround. For me, programming and music (and now I do photography) allow me to be creative. I also did fairly well in math, but never really enjoyed it.
Hi Steven, what do you think about this video...? :confused: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFUHYG6PDfc[^] is it somewhat creative? (the vocalist is yours trully)....:rolleyes: After a rigorous coding I always have a past time sked... Math,programming,music....... i do that in different threads...:laugh:
"We are all the same in different ways" Kuroro Rucilful
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When I talk with non-technical people about the fact that I create software, they often assume that I must be a math wiz. It seems to be a common stereotype that people have about techies -- that we are all mathematical wizards. Of course, unless you are doing mathematical programming, you don't need to know much math to write code. Anyone know how this stereotype came into being? I find that my background in music helps me greatly with programming. The two activities involve similar thought processes; patterns, variations on a theme, rhythms, etc. Any musician-turned-programmers out there agree or disagree with that?
:josh: My WPF Blog[^]
The mechanics of music, performing music, and musical instruments are all about math and physics. I can't fully explain the correlation between musical aptitude and computer programming aptitude, but I agree that there is one. I find it interesting, too, that the correlation seems to span musical genres: classical, rock, improvisational, etc. Personally, I think the best songs are in 3. And I love when rock bands throw in some 5/8 or 7/8. That takes real talent! I always thought a cool name for a band would be "Hello World".
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Josh Smith wrote:
Anyone know how this stereotype came into being?
Sure, because computers were originally created to solve math problems. The classic one being, if I shoot a 500 pound bomb at this trajectory and that velocity, where will it fall? Marc
Some people believe what the bible says. Literally. At least [with Wikipedia] you have the chance to correct the wiki -- Jörgen Sigvardsson
People are just notoriously impossible. --DavidCrow
There's NO excuse for not commenting your code. -- John Simmons / outlaw programmer -
When I talk with non-technical people about the fact that I create software, they often assume that I must be a math wiz. It seems to be a common stereotype that people have about techies -- that we are all mathematical wizards. Of course, unless you are doing mathematical programming, you don't need to know much math to write code. Anyone know how this stereotype came into being? I find that my background in music helps me greatly with programming. The two activities involve similar thought processes; patterns, variations on a theme, rhythms, etc. Any musician-turned-programmers out there agree or disagree with that?
:josh: My WPF Blog[^]
Josh Strongly agreed. Music is about form, and so are systems. The most valuable skill I had when I left professional music to became a programmer was the ability to grasp the relationship between the parts and the whole. Whether it was Beethoven's Symphonic form, Charlie Parkers bebop melodic structures or the Beatles song form, it was about relationships, and it is in well understood and well implemented patterns of design that applications and systems survive or fail. Things such as mathemetical skill or knowledge of operating systems or langauages are secondary. Nic Paton
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dan neely wrote:
Maybe someof the production code did, but not all of it. I know alot of climate modeling is still in fortran, and IIRC the nuke simulations were never ported. I had to deal with legacy fortran twice in my astrophysics class in college.
It all depends on the programmer assigned and the scale of legacy code, I've been doing most of the Fortran porting locally, so if it doesn't come to me, it stays in Fortran, Pascal, or Ada, if it comes to me it gets ported to C or C++.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
A lot of large-model code is still written in fortran, particularly weather codes and other simulation codes that really on heavy use of matrices.
Thanks Colin
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When I talk with non-technical people about the fact that I create software, they often assume that I must be a math wiz. It seems to be a common stereotype that people have about techies -- that we are all mathematical wizards. Of course, unless you are doing mathematical programming, you don't need to know much math to write code. Anyone know how this stereotype came into being? I find that my background in music helps me greatly with programming. The two activities involve similar thought processes; patterns, variations on a theme, rhythms, etc. Any musician-turned-programmers out there agree or disagree with that?
:josh: My WPF Blog[^]
Speaking of thought processes, one of the mathematicians' favourite activities is to design abstract objects, characterize their attributes, describe in a formalized way what their behavior is, and see how they interact with already known abstract objects... Sounds familiar isn't it? :) The nice thing about computers is those constructs of the mind can be seen running outside the brain of their designer.
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When I talk with non-technical people about the fact that I create software, they often assume that I must be a math wiz. It seems to be a common stereotype that people have about techies -- that we are all mathematical wizards. Of course, unless you are doing mathematical programming, you don't need to know much math to write code. Anyone know how this stereotype came into being? I find that my background in music helps me greatly with programming. The two activities involve similar thought processes; patterns, variations on a theme, rhythms, etc. Any musician-turned-programmers out there agree or disagree with that?
:josh: My WPF Blog[^]
As a Systems Engineer, Mathemetician (Hons Deg) and musician (Musical Director of Brass Band) I feel that there is a certain synogy (?) between the three. Stereotype probably came into being because from the very start of computing (babbage sort of time) computers were designed and built to solve mathematical problems.
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Josh Strongly agreed. Music is about form, and so are systems. The most valuable skill I had when I left professional music to became a programmer was the ability to grasp the relationship between the parts and the whole. Whether it was Beethoven's Symphonic form, Charlie Parkers bebop melodic structures or the Beatles song form, it was about relationships, and it is in well understood and well implemented patterns of design that applications and systems survive or fail. Things such as mathemetical skill or knowledge of operating systems or langauages are secondary. Nic Paton
Well said! Got my 5.
:josh: My WPF Blog[^]
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When I talk with non-technical people about the fact that I create software, they often assume that I must be a math wiz. It seems to be a common stereotype that people have about techies -- that we are all mathematical wizards. Of course, unless you are doing mathematical programming, you don't need to know much math to write code. Anyone know how this stereotype came into being? I find that my background in music helps me greatly with programming. The two activities involve similar thought processes; patterns, variations on a theme, rhythms, etc. Any musician-turned-programmers out there agree or disagree with that?
:josh: My WPF Blog[^]
I have read that fiction is also a good background for a programmer. Like music there are many similar thought processes. A fiction author must create a plot, there are certain things that have to be in a plot, but variation is what makes it interesting. Understanding human interaction is very important. Scenes are written, but they must fit within and support the plot, etc.
Pat O
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Josh Smith wrote:
Anyone know how this stereotype came into being?
Under the hood, the computer uses a lot of math. In my "systems programming" course, where we used SPARC assembly for the assignments, I was doing more math by hand than actually writing code. So...I think that's probably where it came from.
225 years ago, we set an example for the rest of the world by creating a country where everyone could vote...
Well, except for women and black people, but we fixed that!
-Adam Duritz, of Counting CrowsI started programming in the late 70's when I was working on a degree in math and chemistry. After that I got a masters in computer science. At that time the computer departments were a part of the math department and it was mostly math majors who took the classes. It does take a logical mind, but I am also a cellist/violinist and am returning to programming to create music theory tutorial programs.
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When I talk with non-technical people about the fact that I create software, they often assume that I must be a math wiz. It seems to be a common stereotype that people have about techies -- that we are all mathematical wizards. Of course, unless you are doing mathematical programming, you don't need to know much math to write code. Anyone know how this stereotype came into being? I find that my background in music helps me greatly with programming. The two activities involve similar thought processes; patterns, variations on a theme, rhythms, etc. Any musician-turned-programmers out there agree or disagree with that?
:josh: My WPF Blog[^]
I'm a programmer who used to work as a professional musician, and prior to that, as a college math instructor. I get asked the same question a lot. I feel that the analytical, pattern-matching and conceptualization skills involved in math are also used in programming. And the pattern-matching and creativity (improvisation) involved in playing music are used in programming. BTW, I used to go to (and play at) square dances a lot (before kids). We would all marvel at the amazingly high proportion of programmers and psychology people there. Any theories about that combination? John Obremski
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When I talk with non-technical people about the fact that I create software, they often assume that I must be a math wiz. It seems to be a common stereotype that people have about techies -- that we are all mathematical wizards. Of course, unless you are doing mathematical programming, you don't need to know much math to write code. Anyone know how this stereotype came into being? I find that my background in music helps me greatly with programming. The two activities involve similar thought processes; patterns, variations on a theme, rhythms, etc. Any musician-turned-programmers out there agree or disagree with that?
:josh: My WPF Blog[^]
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When I talk with non-technical people about the fact that I create software, they often assume that I must be a math wiz. It seems to be a common stereotype that people have about techies -- that we are all mathematical wizards. Of course, unless you are doing mathematical programming, you don't need to know much math to write code. Anyone know how this stereotype came into being? I find that my background in music helps me greatly with programming. The two activities involve similar thought processes; patterns, variations on a theme, rhythms, etc. Any musician-turned-programmers out there agree or disagree with that?
:josh: My WPF Blog[^]
Well, particularly for electronic music, I can see your point, because I was thinking on the way I program music just some minutes ago. But in fact I think that I create music almost the way I code, and not the other way round... And the result is... strange :D;)