Math and music and programming
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When I talk with non-technical people about the fact that I create software, they often assume that I must be a math wiz. It seems to be a common stereotype that people have about techies -- that we are all mathematical wizards. Of course, unless you are doing mathematical programming, you don't need to know much math to write code. Anyone know how this stereotype came into being? I find that my background in music helps me greatly with programming. The two activities involve similar thought processes; patterns, variations on a theme, rhythms, etc. Any musician-turned-programmers out there agree or disagree with that?
:josh: My WPF Blog[^]
The mechanics of music, performing music, and musical instruments are all about math and physics. I can't fully explain the correlation between musical aptitude and computer programming aptitude, but I agree that there is one. I find it interesting, too, that the correlation seems to span musical genres: classical, rock, improvisational, etc. Personally, I think the best songs are in 3. And I love when rock bands throw in some 5/8 or 7/8. That takes real talent! I always thought a cool name for a band would be "Hello World".
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Josh Smith wrote:
Anyone know how this stereotype came into being?
Sure, because computers were originally created to solve math problems. The classic one being, if I shoot a 500 pound bomb at this trajectory and that velocity, where will it fall? Marc
Some people believe what the bible says. Literally. At least [with Wikipedia] you have the chance to correct the wiki -- Jörgen Sigvardsson
People are just notoriously impossible. --DavidCrow
There's NO excuse for not commenting your code. -- John Simmons / outlaw programmer -
When I talk with non-technical people about the fact that I create software, they often assume that I must be a math wiz. It seems to be a common stereotype that people have about techies -- that we are all mathematical wizards. Of course, unless you are doing mathematical programming, you don't need to know much math to write code. Anyone know how this stereotype came into being? I find that my background in music helps me greatly with programming. The two activities involve similar thought processes; patterns, variations on a theme, rhythms, etc. Any musician-turned-programmers out there agree or disagree with that?
:josh: My WPF Blog[^]
Josh Strongly agreed. Music is about form, and so are systems. The most valuable skill I had when I left professional music to became a programmer was the ability to grasp the relationship between the parts and the whole. Whether it was Beethoven's Symphonic form, Charlie Parkers bebop melodic structures or the Beatles song form, it was about relationships, and it is in well understood and well implemented patterns of design that applications and systems survive or fail. Things such as mathemetical skill or knowledge of operating systems or langauages are secondary. Nic Paton
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dan neely wrote:
Maybe someof the production code did, but not all of it. I know alot of climate modeling is still in fortran, and IIRC the nuke simulations were never ported. I had to deal with legacy fortran twice in my astrophysics class in college.
It all depends on the programmer assigned and the scale of legacy code, I've been doing most of the Fortran porting locally, so if it doesn't come to me, it stays in Fortran, Pascal, or Ada, if it comes to me it gets ported to C or C++.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
A lot of large-model code is still written in fortran, particularly weather codes and other simulation codes that really on heavy use of matrices.
Thanks Colin
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When I talk with non-technical people about the fact that I create software, they often assume that I must be a math wiz. It seems to be a common stereotype that people have about techies -- that we are all mathematical wizards. Of course, unless you are doing mathematical programming, you don't need to know much math to write code. Anyone know how this stereotype came into being? I find that my background in music helps me greatly with programming. The two activities involve similar thought processes; patterns, variations on a theme, rhythms, etc. Any musician-turned-programmers out there agree or disagree with that?
:josh: My WPF Blog[^]
Speaking of thought processes, one of the mathematicians' favourite activities is to design abstract objects, characterize their attributes, describe in a formalized way what their behavior is, and see how they interact with already known abstract objects... Sounds familiar isn't it? :) The nice thing about computers is those constructs of the mind can be seen running outside the brain of their designer.
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When I talk with non-technical people about the fact that I create software, they often assume that I must be a math wiz. It seems to be a common stereotype that people have about techies -- that we are all mathematical wizards. Of course, unless you are doing mathematical programming, you don't need to know much math to write code. Anyone know how this stereotype came into being? I find that my background in music helps me greatly with programming. The two activities involve similar thought processes; patterns, variations on a theme, rhythms, etc. Any musician-turned-programmers out there agree or disagree with that?
:josh: My WPF Blog[^]
As a Systems Engineer, Mathemetician (Hons Deg) and musician (Musical Director of Brass Band) I feel that there is a certain synogy (?) between the three. Stereotype probably came into being because from the very start of computing (babbage sort of time) computers were designed and built to solve mathematical problems.
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Josh Strongly agreed. Music is about form, and so are systems. The most valuable skill I had when I left professional music to became a programmer was the ability to grasp the relationship between the parts and the whole. Whether it was Beethoven's Symphonic form, Charlie Parkers bebop melodic structures or the Beatles song form, it was about relationships, and it is in well understood and well implemented patterns of design that applications and systems survive or fail. Things such as mathemetical skill or knowledge of operating systems or langauages are secondary. Nic Paton
Well said! Got my 5.
:josh: My WPF Blog[^]
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When I talk with non-technical people about the fact that I create software, they often assume that I must be a math wiz. It seems to be a common stereotype that people have about techies -- that we are all mathematical wizards. Of course, unless you are doing mathematical programming, you don't need to know much math to write code. Anyone know how this stereotype came into being? I find that my background in music helps me greatly with programming. The two activities involve similar thought processes; patterns, variations on a theme, rhythms, etc. Any musician-turned-programmers out there agree or disagree with that?
:josh: My WPF Blog[^]
I have read that fiction is also a good background for a programmer. Like music there are many similar thought processes. A fiction author must create a plot, there are certain things that have to be in a plot, but variation is what makes it interesting. Understanding human interaction is very important. Scenes are written, but they must fit within and support the plot, etc.
Pat O
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Josh Smith wrote:
Anyone know how this stereotype came into being?
Under the hood, the computer uses a lot of math. In my "systems programming" course, where we used SPARC assembly for the assignments, I was doing more math by hand than actually writing code. So...I think that's probably where it came from.
225 years ago, we set an example for the rest of the world by creating a country where everyone could vote...
Well, except for women and black people, but we fixed that!
-Adam Duritz, of Counting CrowsI started programming in the late 70's when I was working on a degree in math and chemistry. After that I got a masters in computer science. At that time the computer departments were a part of the math department and it was mostly math majors who took the classes. It does take a logical mind, but I am also a cellist/violinist and am returning to programming to create music theory tutorial programs.
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When I talk with non-technical people about the fact that I create software, they often assume that I must be a math wiz. It seems to be a common stereotype that people have about techies -- that we are all mathematical wizards. Of course, unless you are doing mathematical programming, you don't need to know much math to write code. Anyone know how this stereotype came into being? I find that my background in music helps me greatly with programming. The two activities involve similar thought processes; patterns, variations on a theme, rhythms, etc. Any musician-turned-programmers out there agree or disagree with that?
:josh: My WPF Blog[^]
I'm a programmer who used to work as a professional musician, and prior to that, as a college math instructor. I get asked the same question a lot. I feel that the analytical, pattern-matching and conceptualization skills involved in math are also used in programming. And the pattern-matching and creativity (improvisation) involved in playing music are used in programming. BTW, I used to go to (and play at) square dances a lot (before kids). We would all marvel at the amazingly high proportion of programmers and psychology people there. Any theories about that combination? John Obremski
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When I talk with non-technical people about the fact that I create software, they often assume that I must be a math wiz. It seems to be a common stereotype that people have about techies -- that we are all mathematical wizards. Of course, unless you are doing mathematical programming, you don't need to know much math to write code. Anyone know how this stereotype came into being? I find that my background in music helps me greatly with programming. The two activities involve similar thought processes; patterns, variations on a theme, rhythms, etc. Any musician-turned-programmers out there agree or disagree with that?
:josh: My WPF Blog[^]
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When I talk with non-technical people about the fact that I create software, they often assume that I must be a math wiz. It seems to be a common stereotype that people have about techies -- that we are all mathematical wizards. Of course, unless you are doing mathematical programming, you don't need to know much math to write code. Anyone know how this stereotype came into being? I find that my background in music helps me greatly with programming. The two activities involve similar thought processes; patterns, variations on a theme, rhythms, etc. Any musician-turned-programmers out there agree or disagree with that?
:josh: My WPF Blog[^]
Well, particularly for electronic music, I can see your point, because I was thinking on the way I program music just some minutes ago. But in fact I think that I create music almost the way I code, and not the other way round... And the result is... strange :D;)
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When I talk with non-technical people about the fact that I create software, they often assume that I must be a math wiz. It seems to be a common stereotype that people have about techies -- that we are all mathematical wizards. Of course, unless you are doing mathematical programming, you don't need to know much math to write code. Anyone know how this stereotype came into being? I find that my background in music helps me greatly with programming. The two activities involve similar thought processes; patterns, variations on a theme, rhythms, etc. Any musician-turned-programmers out there agree or disagree with that?
:josh: My WPF Blog[^]
Yeah I think having a music background helps a lot. As you practice something over and over, you develop tenacity and discipline and an acute attentiveness to detail. Although, it means I have a tough time programming while music is playing in the background, because I tend to just sit and listen to it. :)
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Jeffry J. Brickley wrote:
That is why I don't come cheap. and the Fortran code got translated to C a long time ago.
Maybe someof the production code did, but not all of it. I know alot of climate modeling is still in fortran, and IIRC the nuke simulations were never ported. I had to deal with legacy fortran twice in my astrophysics class in college.
There may be many changes to FORTRAN, but they will always call it FORTRAN.
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When I talk with non-technical people about the fact that I create software, they often assume that I must be a math wiz. It seems to be a common stereotype that people have about techies -- that we are all mathematical wizards. Of course, unless you are doing mathematical programming, you don't need to know much math to write code. Anyone know how this stereotype came into being? I find that my background in music helps me greatly with programming. The two activities involve similar thought processes; patterns, variations on a theme, rhythms, etc. Any musician-turned-programmers out there agree or disagree with that?
:josh: My WPF Blog[^]
Totally agree! I'm a musician AND a programmer. The music came first. When I first started programming I loved it! Both are very creative processes ... when you think about designing a piece of software, the process is almost like writing a song (including the fact that you might end up with multiple versions)! P.S. I'm also not too bad in math;) Greg
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Relating Math, Music and Programming.... in my case, not long ago, I've indulged in Mathematics coz I don't have a choice, I am an engineering student that time.... our first programming lesson is about math... i hate the header "math.h"....(that was long time ago)... I think the analysis skill is the link between Mathematics and Programming.... in my opinion; Extreme Programming (producing the simplest running program) and Reverse Engineering is synonymous.... In such case as music.... check out this link.... maybe programming is immediately proportional to performance level.... :rolleyes: by the way this is me....:suss: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFUHYG6PDfc[^]
"We are all the same in different ways" Kuroro Rucilful
Pretty cool. I like it. Did you film this in the Philipines? My wife is trying to get me to move to Thailand where she's from.
This statement is false.
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When I talk with non-technical people about the fact that I create software, they often assume that I must be a math wiz. It seems to be a common stereotype that people have about techies -- that we are all mathematical wizards. Of course, unless you are doing mathematical programming, you don't need to know much math to write code. Anyone know how this stereotype came into being? I find that my background in music helps me greatly with programming. The two activities involve similar thought processes; patterns, variations on a theme, rhythms, etc. Any musician-turned-programmers out there agree or disagree with that?
:josh: My WPF Blog[^]
My music and math background helps greatly. I think the music is helpful for abstaction and symbolism, and a certain amount of the creativity. The math helps, especially linear algebra because I work mostly with complex database/reporting environments
Tom Hamilton Intel Corporation Folsom/Test Engineering
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When I talk with non-technical people about the fact that I create software, they often assume that I must be a math wiz. It seems to be a common stereotype that people have about techies -- that we are all mathematical wizards. Of course, unless you are doing mathematical programming, you don't need to know much math to write code. Anyone know how this stereotype came into being? I find that my background in music helps me greatly with programming. The two activities involve similar thought processes; patterns, variations on a theme, rhythms, etc. Any musician-turned-programmers out there agree or disagree with that?
:josh: My WPF Blog[^]
I am a mathematician / programmer, and more recently an amateur musician. I definitely agree with your statement about music and programming having similar thought processes. In fact, in my musical studies, i have found that i quicky pick up on a lot of music theorey that a lot of much more experienced musicians do not ever see. Most likely because i am generally looking for the overall patterns and structure of music. That said, i think that the stereotype about programmers all being mathematicians is because math is very much what you describe music being like: patterns, variations on themes, etc. (not really rhythms). But all 3 subjects definitely require very similar thought processes.
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When I talk with non-technical people about the fact that I create software, they often assume that I must be a math wiz. It seems to be a common stereotype that people have about techies -- that we are all mathematical wizards. Of course, unless you are doing mathematical programming, you don't need to know much math to write code. Anyone know how this stereotype came into being? I find that my background in music helps me greatly with programming. The two activities involve similar thought processes; patterns, variations on a theme, rhythms, etc. Any musician-turned-programmers out there agree or disagree with that?
:josh: My WPF Blog[^]
Programming is obviously very math oriented, concepts and constructs both. But what I've noticed, is that math is often reducing to a single statement, where programming focuses on doing something in steps. Meaning that with math, of course you go through many steps to achieve a solution, but most are equal yet different ways to represent a truth. Clear as mud? I was a physics major before I started programming. And once I'd been programming for some time, I went back to see what I remembered from Calculus. I was pretty frusterated trying to work through some simple math I used to be able to do because I kept thinking how I would approach it with code. In a lot of respects, it's a completely different way of thinking. A simple example is working with a series. With math, you want an equation that produces a value for a given step, a single equation that represents the entire series. For programmers, or for me anyway, when I can see the pattern but not the equation, my immediate instict leads me to a loop. Programmers tend to break things apart, which is natural for us as an approach to solving problems. In short, very tightly coupled sciences, practicioners with very different thought patterns. On music... I was a musician and an artist before programmer. I don't really see the music analogy, but art plays a major part in a lot of my programming decisions. Hell aesthetics played a part in my language of choise, VB is just a fugly language.
Try code model generation tools at BoneSoft.com.
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Pretty cool. I like it. Did you film this in the Philipines? My wife is trying to get me to move to Thailand where she's from.
This statement is false.
Thanks pal, we film it in Cebu last july.. we are only using 1 mini DV cam with no lights and filmmaking stuff; we call it Guerilla Film Making... it's all about tricks.... parallel to programming :rolleyes: Really? Thailand is more or less similar to Philippines, weather and lots of stuff. Thailand is a great country, one thing; they have language barrier.... maybe because of the position of thier tongue when speaking thier native language.... They've got a great movie too... Thai movies are best in thier stunts.....
"We are all the same in different ways" Kuroro Rucilful