Should I bother getting certified??
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I've been working with a mid-sized corporation writing web applications and maintaining and/or updating existing code for about two years now. I still know next nothing compared to a guru, but I love the fact that I can still learn new nuances and tricks every day. Do you reckon that I should concentrate on a single language that I'm familiar with or learn a little about many? I'm getting almost competant with ASP.NET/C# at my present internship. Thanks by the way for the advice, I pretty much figured that if you can't walk the walk no amount of paper will land you a dream job even entry level.
An American football fan - Go Seahawks! Lil Turtle
Lil Turtle wrote:
nuances
Now you're gonna make espeir all riled up. :~
-- -= Proudly Made on Earth =-
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I toss resumes that tout certifications. I want to see experience on real projects. (For your senior project, if you have one, pick something you can actually complete and show off. That will do more for you than all the degrees, certifications and amount of CS theory you can spout.) -- modified at 18:08 Wednesday 16th August, 2006 [ADDED: Some have pointed out that certifications can help at some companies. That is true. I also refuse to work for such companies.]
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
Joe Woodbury wrote:
[ADDED: Some have pointed out that certifications can help at some companies. That is true. I also refuse to work for such companies.]
Does this reflect the work environment, or standards?:confused: Just seeking your opinion.
An American football fan - Go Seahawks! Lil Turtle
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Mark Nischalke wrote:
the realization the "nifty piece of paper" doesn't really mean anything
I know this, but hey I've got to put something in the frame right?:laugh: Do you have suggestions as to where are the best places to start in the business? I live in the Northwest(US) now but would move for better opportunities.
An American football fan - Go Seahawks! Lil Turtle
Lil Turtle wrote:
the best places to start in the business?
at the bottom :-D
only two letters away from being an asset
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I've just entered the last leg of my journey through academia, for the time being. Oh yeah - only two semesters left and I get a nifty piece of paper that fits oh so well in a frame on my wall, that says I am a Computer Scientist.:-D:-D My question is should I even bother getting Microsoft certified, or just rely on my intern programming experience(.NET,C#,little bits of some 'old' stuff) to get my foot in the door? I know y'all will have some useful information and maybe some advice for a budding dev:cool:. Thanks in advance.
An American football fan - Go Seahawks! Lil Turtle
Lil Turtle wrote:
My question is should I even bother getting Microsoft certified,
No. When people tell me they are an MCP, I often ask 'so which exam did you pass ?'. I don't think that playing a game of buying books, reading crib sheets and paying for an exam proves anything except a reliance on external justification.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
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Lil Turtle wrote:
the best places to start in the business?
at the bottom :-D
only two letters away from being an asset
Any idea when those other two letters make it to the alphabet;P:-D Is that mostly grunt work or do you reckon I'll be able to code?
An American football fan - Go Seahawks! Lil Turtle
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I've just entered the last leg of my journey through academia, for the time being. Oh yeah - only two semesters left and I get a nifty piece of paper that fits oh so well in a frame on my wall, that says I am a Computer Scientist.:-D:-D My question is should I even bother getting Microsoft certified, or just rely on my intern programming experience(.NET,C#,little bits of some 'old' stuff) to get my foot in the door? I know y'all will have some useful information and maybe some advice for a budding dev:cool:. Thanks in advance.
An American football fan - Go Seahawks! Lil Turtle
It's fashion those days, I see that a lot of companies ask for certificacions, but there are not only MS ones, you have other certs very helpfull. Sun, Oracle, PMI, etc... I am MCAD (3 exams from MS) and I swear, anyone can make it, even without knowing, so I assume if I were an employer I wouldn't take too much seriously a certification everyone can do with just so little effort. But I insist, it's fashion those days to ask for certifications. In my personal experience it got me a job since they asked me, are you at least MCP (1 exam)? And when a said Yes, they told me: Good, cause we are hiring MCP and plus. So... in some cases it can be usefull I think, but it does not mean that you know something. :~
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It's fashion those days, I see that a lot of companies ask for certificacions, but there are not only MS ones, you have other certs very helpfull. Sun, Oracle, PMI, etc... I am MCAD (3 exams from MS) and I swear, anyone can make it, even without knowing, so I assume if I were an employer I wouldn't take too much seriously a certification everyone can do with just so little effort. But I insist, it's fashion those days to ask for certifications. In my personal experience it got me a job since they asked me, are you at least MCP (1 exam)? And when a said Yes, they told me: Good, cause we are hiring MCP and plus. So... in some cases it can be usefull I think, but it does not mean that you know something. :~
siskhoalanka wrote:
it's fashion those days
Does this mean I shouldn't wear my DBZ shirt to the interview?;P So they're good for a foot in the door, huh? That might almost make it worth it, as I'm sure I could convince my advisor to give me some additional credits for passing on top of it. Thanks for the pearls of wisdom. -- modified at 18:45 Wednesday 16th August, 2006
An American football fan - Go Seahawks! Lil Turtle
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Any idea when those other two letters make it to the alphabet;P:-D Is that mostly grunt work or do you reckon I'll be able to code?
An American football fan - Go Seahawks! Lil Turtle
It really depends on the company. A small place would probably offer the best opportunity. I read recently that the best place to start out, in any career, is not in the big city, where you would be just another recent grad. The smaller markets offer a chance to get in and start gaining experience and making a name for yourself.
only two letters away from being an asset
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It really depends on the company. A small place would probably offer the best opportunity. I read recently that the best place to start out, in any career, is not in the big city, where you would be just another recent grad. The smaller markets offer a chance to get in and start gaining experience and making a name for yourself.
only two letters away from being an asset
Right on, Right on. Thanks.
An American football fan - Go Seahawks! Lil Turtle
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Joe Woodbury wrote:
[ADDED: Some have pointed out that certifications can help at some companies. That is true. I also refuse to work for such companies.]
Does this reflect the work environment, or standards?:confused: Just seeking your opinion.
An American football fan - Go Seahawks! Lil Turtle
Computer certifications indicate very little about someone's capacity to do a job. They mainly test the capacity to remember esoteric facts, not actually use those facts in a meaningful way. A company that depends on certificates as a determining factor in hiring respect the superficial over actually getting the job done. I should add that I've NEVER been interviewed by a hiring manager who cared one iota about certificates; the only place where this has come up is with the human resources department (in every case over the objections of the hiring manager.)
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
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Joe Woodbury wrote:
[ADDED: Some have pointed out that certifications can help at some companies. That is true. I also refuse to work for such companies.]
Does this reflect the work environment, or standards?:confused: Just seeking your opinion.
An American football fan - Go Seahawks! Lil Turtle
I'll now give you a very odd recommendation; try to get hired at the biggest company you can. Once there, take as many classes you can on their dime (not certification, but real meat and potatoes classes.) Use them. Heck, if they pay for a masters degreee, take them up on it (if you can stand it; I couldn't even tolerate undergraduate CS classes and so got my degree in making movies.) Stick around three years and then go find the job you really want.
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
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Lil Turtle wrote:
nuances
Now you're gonna make espeir all riled up. :~
-- -= Proudly Made on Earth =-
Nah, I think the soapbox is his homepage :)
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I've just entered the last leg of my journey through academia, for the time being. Oh yeah - only two semesters left and I get a nifty piece of paper that fits oh so well in a frame on my wall, that says I am a Computer Scientist.:-D:-D My question is should I even bother getting Microsoft certified, or just rely on my intern programming experience(.NET,C#,little bits of some 'old' stuff) to get my foot in the door? I know y'all will have some useful information and maybe some advice for a budding dev:cool:. Thanks in advance.
An American football fan - Go Seahawks! Lil Turtle
It depends on your oppurtunities to get progressive valuable experience without it and the job market in your area. The best programmer I know doesn`t have a bachelor's degree or certifications, that prevents him from even applying to jobs for which he would be overqualified. But the contractor's market is good, and in that one, experience on your resume is worth a lot and he's very succesfull. Personaly I think certification would be worth it only if it opens you doors you couldn't get to by slowly building your own real work experience, even if that way takes longer.
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I've just entered the last leg of my journey through academia, for the time being. Oh yeah - only two semesters left and I get a nifty piece of paper that fits oh so well in a frame on my wall, that says I am a Computer Scientist.:-D:-D My question is should I even bother getting Microsoft certified, or just rely on my intern programming experience(.NET,C#,little bits of some 'old' stuff) to get my foot in the door? I know y'all will have some useful information and maybe some advice for a budding dev:cool:. Thanks in advance.
An American football fan - Go Seahawks! Lil Turtle
It doesn't hurt but it really doesn't necessarily help that much either. In my experience I have found that people/clients outside the IT industry apply more significance to the certification than those in the 'know'. So if you are going out on your own as a consultant (or planning to) then I would consider it, but otherwise I would wait until you are employed and get your employer to pay for it. Cheers, David
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Lil Turtle wrote:
My question is should I even bother getting Microsoft certified,
No. When people tell me they are an MCP, I often ask 'so which exam did you pass ?'. I don't think that playing a game of buying books, reading crib sheets and paying for an exam proves anything except a reliance on external justification.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
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Seems a bit rich coming from soming who adds "Microsoft MVP" to the end of their name. Meeting some MVPs I would not say too many better things about the MVP process as compared to the MCP
I guess you have no idea what an MVP is then ? MVP is an award that Microsoft gives, I didn't ask for it, nor did I sit any exam to get it.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
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I guess you have no idea what an MVP is then ? MVP is an award that Microsoft gives, I didn't ask for it, nor did I sit any exam to get it.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
Fair call, now let me share my opinion of SOME of the MVPs that I HAVE met. All about talking themselves up in community forums, mailing list, etc most of the time not really answering questions just racking up points on the forum in order to become Gold this or Platinum that, doing as many presentations as possible most of the time ripping off TechEd presentation or doing beginner level presentations and of course networking with the right people in order to get their name on the list. I would not be fair if I say that I have met and worked with many MVPs that are brilliant, but MVP status just like MCP status doesnt guarantee it so I found it interesting that you would comment on the value of MCP and yet feel happy to sign off with MVP
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Fair call, now let me share my opinion of SOME of the MVPs that I HAVE met. All about talking themselves up in community forums, mailing list, etc most of the time not really answering questions just racking up points on the forum in order to become Gold this or Platinum that, doing as many presentations as possible most of the time ripping off TechEd presentation or doing beginner level presentations and of course networking with the right people in order to get their name on the list. I would not be fair if I say that I have met and worked with many MVPs that are brilliant, but MVP status just like MCP status doesnt guarantee it so I found it interesting that you would comment on the value of MCP and yet feel happy to sign off with MVP
svenskok wrote:
and of course networking with the right people in order to get their name on the list.
There is no-one to network with. I have no idea who decides if I stay on or not. But I don't doubt that some people post a lot once they get MVP, in order to keep it. Actually, I've not posted on the MSDN forums for ages, except a few today. I don't do anything to keep my MVP, nor do I let it guide my actions or opinions. Having said that, I'm thankful for it, and the opportunities it gives me. And obviously, I cannot speak for all MVPs, nothing you've said surprises me, although no MVPs I know are like that IMO.
svenskok wrote:
but MVP status just like MCP status doesnt guarantee it
Yes, I agree.
svenskok wrote:
so I found it interesting that you would comment on the value of MCP and yet feel happy to sign off with MVP
Well, I *am* an MVP, as it happens I don't have a degree, so MVP is all I am. As a result, I get some cool stuff, and I think that flagging the fact I am an MVP gives the program exposure and is the least I can do. If you were to talk to me, I'd be the last to 'talk it up' or thing I'm anything as a result of it. It just means I like to help people in forums. I've worked with people who are at least as good as I am, who will never be MVPs, because they don't like to help strangers. So, MVP doesn't mean I'm smarter, it means I'm more generous.
Christian Graus - Microsoft MVP - C++ Metal Musings - Rex and my new metal blog
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I've just entered the last leg of my journey through academia, for the time being. Oh yeah - only two semesters left and I get a nifty piece of paper that fits oh so well in a frame on my wall, that says I am a Computer Scientist.:-D:-D My question is should I even bother getting Microsoft certified, or just rely on my intern programming experience(.NET,C#,little bits of some 'old' stuff) to get my foot in the door? I know y'all will have some useful information and maybe some advice for a budding dev:cool:. Thanks in advance.
An American football fan - Go Seahawks! Lil Turtle
My experience is that employers value experience over qualifications. In many industries, qualifications denote some experience through apprenticeships etc but these days you can do IT qualifications online or by distance learning and you need to have a good memory rather than a good understanding or experience to gain them. I have MCSD and MCAD (5 MCP's) and I have enjoyed the experience. It certainly wasn't easy. I did this via distance learning and my course included a project to achieve my Diploma. I learned more from this than any of my studying for exams. I did it simply because I just wanted to. I have no other formal qualifications (other than from school 25 years ago!) and I got a real sense of achievement when I finally completed my course. People that don't have these or any other qualifications will always deride them. My personal opinion is that, at the very least, it shows that you are the type of person that finishes what you started. In my case, I paid for the whole thing myself. I would like to think that says something about my character. I think it really depends on the person. I have worked with people that have many years experience that were not as good as someone new to the job. This can be because of their lack of knowledge in new techniques and technologies or because they have spent many years just doing one thing. Sometimes it can just be down to their personality (or lack of it!). From an employer's perspective, they will always choose someone with a track record over someone with qualifications and no experience. Employing someone can be a risk in many ways and quite costly. They need to be able to justify it. Steve
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I've just entered the last leg of my journey through academia, for the time being. Oh yeah - only two semesters left and I get a nifty piece of paper that fits oh so well in a frame on my wall, that says I am a Computer Scientist.:-D:-D My question is should I even bother getting Microsoft certified, or just rely on my intern programming experience(.NET,C#,little bits of some 'old' stuff) to get my foot in the door? I know y'all will have some useful information and maybe some advice for a budding dev:cool:. Thanks in advance.
An American football fan - Go Seahawks! Lil Turtle
I have to disagree with these guys. I had been writing code professionally, on and off, since the days of VB3.0, Access 1.0, and Crystal Reports 1.0. I could NOT get a full-time developer job. I got my MCAD (Microsoft Certified Application Developer) certification and within less than a week got a job offer at nearly $80k in Charlotte, NC. I can't say that the same would happen for you, but I can say that it was the best $8k I EVER spent! I made that back in less than 3 months! I went from $20/hr being the entire IT group for a GE Manufacturing Facility and 2 distribution centers to a full time VB.NET programming job as a mid-level developer at $38.50/hr. Right now, I am a full-time ASP.NET developer for a smaller company with benefits! I doubled my salary by getting the cert! :cool: I have suggested getting the cert to SEVERAL people!
Jim Evans Microsoft Certified Application Developer.NET