PHP popularity
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After reading PHP eats Rails for breakfast[^] I felt distinctally saddened. We complain about marketers and the media for being sensationalist hacks and yet we, we programmers and developers and coders and engineers, can be just as bad. Admittedly a part of me is rising to defend Rails but had that been ASP instead of Rails I would have been almost as scornful of the article. Objections off the top of my head; LOC is a terrible measure of anything. It only measure open source projects. What about non-scripting languages used for web-dev. The title says "Rails" but the graphs say "Ruby"; sensationalist hack. Now, I admit it; PHP is huge. Of course it is. It was the only real option for many years. I just hate that developers can be as prone to sensationalism as the media.
regards, Paul Watson Ireland FeedHenry needs you
eh, stop bugging me about it, give it a couple of days, see what happens.
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After reading PHP eats Rails for breakfast[^] I felt distinctally saddened. We complain about marketers and the media for being sensationalist hacks and yet we, we programmers and developers and coders and engineers, can be just as bad. Admittedly a part of me is rising to defend Rails but had that been ASP instead of Rails I would have been almost as scornful of the article. Objections off the top of my head; LOC is a terrible measure of anything. It only measure open source projects. What about non-scripting languages used for web-dev. The title says "Rails" but the graphs say "Ruby"; sensationalist hack. Now, I admit it; PHP is huge. Of course it is. It was the only real option for many years. I just hate that developers can be as prone to sensationalism as the media.
regards, Paul Watson Ireland FeedHenry needs you
eh, stop bugging me about it, give it a couple of days, see what happens.
Paul Watson wrote:
Admittedly a part of me is rising to defend Rails but had that been ASP instead of Rails I would have been almost as scornful of the article.
Wrong forum? Windows programmers probably don't know anything about 'Rails'. :~
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Paul Watson wrote:
Admittedly a part of me is rising to defend Rails but had that been ASP instead of Rails I would have been almost as scornful of the article.
Wrong forum? Windows programmers probably don't know anything about 'Rails'. :~
The lads here are smart enough to realise it applies to all programming :)
regards, Paul Watson Ireland FeedHenry needs you
eh, stop bugging me about it, give it a couple of days, see what happens.
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After reading PHP eats Rails for breakfast[^] I felt distinctally saddened. We complain about marketers and the media for being sensationalist hacks and yet we, we programmers and developers and coders and engineers, can be just as bad. Admittedly a part of me is rising to defend Rails but had that been ASP instead of Rails I would have been almost as scornful of the article. Objections off the top of my head; LOC is a terrible measure of anything. It only measure open source projects. What about non-scripting languages used for web-dev. The title says "Rails" but the graphs say "Ruby"; sensationalist hack. Now, I admit it; PHP is huge. Of course it is. It was the only real option for many years. I just hate that developers can be as prone to sensationalism as the media.
regards, Paul Watson Ireland FeedHenry needs you
eh, stop bugging me about it, give it a couple of days, see what happens.
I have programmed on PHP and other SS Langages for many years. Rails is the new kid on the block and I honestly don't like it (not that i know too of it). But you are right, the web is fast becoming a bunch of buzz words and 2.0's, we have to deal with it.
Brad Australian Save the Glass House (Fill in the complaint form to the ABC) Glass House Home Page (May as well get hooked while you still can)
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I have programmed on PHP and other SS Langages for many years. Rails is the new kid on the block and I honestly don't like it (not that i know too of it). But you are right, the web is fast becoming a bunch of buzz words and 2.0's, we have to deal with it.
Brad Australian Save the Glass House (Fill in the complaint form to the ABC) Glass House Home Page (May as well get hooked while you still can)
Well that wasn't my point at all to be honest.
regards, Paul Watson Ireland FeedHenry needs you
eh, stop bugging me about it, give it a couple of days, see what happens.
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Paul Watson wrote:
Admittedly a part of me is rising to defend Rails but had that been ASP instead of Rails I would have been almost as scornful of the article.
Wrong forum? Windows programmers probably don't know anything about 'Rails'. :~
Some of us have broader horizons than just "Windows Programming". Some of us do *gasp* web development as well. Or even code for those Other Platforms.
Oh geez... the forum keeps spinning... you'll take care o f it i'm sure, c'ause ... yeah, i neede this. *cough* anyway good job finding the bug.
-Shog9 on...a Firefox bug. -
After reading PHP eats Rails for breakfast[^] I felt distinctally saddened. We complain about marketers and the media for being sensationalist hacks and yet we, we programmers and developers and coders and engineers, can be just as bad. Admittedly a part of me is rising to defend Rails but had that been ASP instead of Rails I would have been almost as scornful of the article. Objections off the top of my head; LOC is a terrible measure of anything. It only measure open source projects. What about non-scripting languages used for web-dev. The title says "Rails" but the graphs say "Ruby"; sensationalist hack. Now, I admit it; PHP is huge. Of course it is. It was the only real option for many years. I just hate that developers can be as prone to sensationalism as the media.
regards, Paul Watson Ireland FeedHenry needs you
eh, stop bugging me about it, give it a couple of days, see what happens.
The last graph shows that most of the new projects are in ruby(rails). That is the most important part. Most of the new projects are tending towards ruby. I dont believe LOC as the true measure of the success of any language. Rails is a relatively new framework so it is bound to have lesser LOC. I think those figures are going to change drastically in some time.
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After reading PHP eats Rails for breakfast[^] I felt distinctally saddened. We complain about marketers and the media for being sensationalist hacks and yet we, we programmers and developers and coders and engineers, can be just as bad. Admittedly a part of me is rising to defend Rails but had that been ASP instead of Rails I would have been almost as scornful of the article. Objections off the top of my head; LOC is a terrible measure of anything. It only measure open source projects. What about non-scripting languages used for web-dev. The title says "Rails" but the graphs say "Ruby"; sensationalist hack. Now, I admit it; PHP is huge. Of course it is. It was the only real option for many years. I just hate that developers can be as prone to sensationalism as the media.
regards, Paul Watson Ireland FeedHenry needs you
eh, stop bugging me about it, give it a couple of days, see what happens.
The more sensational you can make an article, the more traffic your site gets. Nothing is mentioned about the fact that PHP is almost universally available and incredibly easy for anyone to use. Contrast this with Rails which is not very wide-spread and difficult to use (especially on shared hosts). Hardly surprising that more open source products would choose it. I wonder if the same statistics would be apparent if you looked at LOC for 'stable commercial products' - somehow I suspect that PHP would be looking a little wonky.
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Well that wasn't my point at all to be honest.
regards, Paul Watson Ireland FeedHenry needs you
eh, stop bugging me about it, give it a couple of days, see what happens.
My point was simply that the entire focus of a lot of media (developer formed as well as people who did a two week Word course in high school and now write technology sections) these days is all to do with the current Buzz Words. You see very few C++ vs. Java things(articles, charts, love letters) anymore. It is all AJAX this and Ruby that. Buzz Words. On a slightly different note I think there is life in PHP still. Windows boxes are supposedly going to be able to run it faster. Not to mention many high profile sites still use it, YouTube and Gmail to name 2.
Brad Australian Save the Glass House (Fill in the complaint form to the ABC) Glass House Home Page (May as well get hooked while you still can)
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The more sensational you can make an article, the more traffic your site gets. Nothing is mentioned about the fact that PHP is almost universally available and incredibly easy for anyone to use. Contrast this with Rails which is not very wide-spread and difficult to use (especially on shared hosts). Hardly surprising that more open source products would choose it. I wonder if the same statistics would be apparent if you looked at LOC for 'stable commercial products' - somehow I suspect that PHP would be looking a little wonky.
Johnny ² wrote:
I wonder if the same statistics would be apparent if you looked at LOC for 'stable commercial products' - somehow I suspect that PHP would be looking a little wonky.
I take it you Don't think PHP is stable? I think you will find that this is quite contrary to actual fact. PHP is a very stable language and many commercial products have been written in it.
Brad Australian Save the Glass House (Fill in the complaint form to the ABC) Glass House Home Page (May as well get hooked while you still can)
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After reading PHP eats Rails for breakfast[^] I felt distinctally saddened. We complain about marketers and the media for being sensationalist hacks and yet we, we programmers and developers and coders and engineers, can be just as bad. Admittedly a part of me is rising to defend Rails but had that been ASP instead of Rails I would have been almost as scornful of the article. Objections off the top of my head; LOC is a terrible measure of anything. It only measure open source projects. What about non-scripting languages used for web-dev. The title says "Rails" but the graphs say "Ruby"; sensationalist hack. Now, I admit it; PHP is huge. Of course it is. It was the only real option for many years. I just hate that developers can be as prone to sensationalism as the media.
regards, Paul Watson Ireland FeedHenry needs you
eh, stop bugging me about it, give it a couple of days, see what happens.
Ducking ASP.NET Developer's head down under bombing range ;) LOC is silly as any type of measure, does not matter which platform or technology. I have seen code with lots LOC and have no stability and crippled functionality. It would be like saying a 400 lbs person is stronger than a 150 lbs person. Yes, they have more mass, but it is how that mass is constructed that determines it strength, that is 250 lbs of fat does not do much but 250 lbs of muscle does! It is the nature of pushing a person's view, people can creative to make everyone else think their view is the correct one. I think it is the nature of the beast. Of course this is why my view that the world should only do web development in ASP.NET is the only correct one :) (before flames, that last line was an attempt at humour for those that are humour imparied.)
Rocky <>< Latest Code Blog Post: ASP.NET HttpException - Cannot use leading "..".. Latest Tech Blog Post: Enviromission - Solar power of the future?
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Johnny ² wrote:
I wonder if the same statistics would be apparent if you looked at LOC for 'stable commercial products' - somehow I suspect that PHP would be looking a little wonky.
I take it you Don't think PHP is stable? I think you will find that this is quite contrary to actual fact. PHP is a very stable language and many commercial products have been written in it.
Brad Australian Save the Glass House (Fill in the complaint form to the ABC) Glass House Home Page (May as well get hooked while you still can)
I actually spend most of my time programming in PHP. My comment was just that Rails is built from the ground up to be a stable test-driven framework, while PHP is a procedural language with OO bolted on to the side. In terms of open source projects PHP is definitely going to present a much lower entry level than Rails. However, when you step up into the commercial realm then you have to work much harder in PHP to maintain the same quality. This is something that the article doesn't take into consideration.
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After reading PHP eats Rails for breakfast[^] I felt distinctally saddened. We complain about marketers and the media for being sensationalist hacks and yet we, we programmers and developers and coders and engineers, can be just as bad. Admittedly a part of me is rising to defend Rails but had that been ASP instead of Rails I would have been almost as scornful of the article. Objections off the top of my head; LOC is a terrible measure of anything. It only measure open source projects. What about non-scripting languages used for web-dev. The title says "Rails" but the graphs say "Ruby"; sensationalist hack. Now, I admit it; PHP is huge. Of course it is. It was the only real option for many years. I just hate that developers can be as prone to sensationalism as the media.
regards, Paul Watson Ireland FeedHenry needs you
eh, stop bugging me about it, give it a couple of days, see what happens.
Paul Watson wrote:
I just hate that developers can be as prone to sensationalism as the media.
Can be? You're joking, right? Developers are some of the most religious, dogma spewing, wool wearing creatures I've ever encountered. And after a previous lifetime of hanging out with musicians, that's really saying something. Rightly or wrongly (and most of us know which it really is), the thing that drives most technological decisions is not business need, suitability to task, productivity, the quality of the tools or anything else. Points are argued and decisions are made in an emotional frenzy of brand allegiance, religious preferences and prejudices, the weight of what toys we want to play with next, and how it will all look on our resume. That an app needs to be desktop or web, or developed using a given brand and type of language or set of technologies rarely has anything to do with whether or not that's the best decision from a business and user perspective. It's all about what the developers want to play with, because for us, this is entertainment as well as a profession. What comes both before the decision to drive it, and afterwards to justify it, is an endless stream of sensationalism, hype and emotional statements. We all like to blame Marketing and the Suits for the mess that most software projects become. However, a good deal of it starts with us. I'll now sit back and wait for the endless stream of sensationalism, hype and emotional statements to explain why I'm wrong about this. :-D
Author of The Career Programmer and Unite the Tribes www.PracticalStrategyConsulting.com
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After reading PHP eats Rails for breakfast[^] I felt distinctally saddened. We complain about marketers and the media for being sensationalist hacks and yet we, we programmers and developers and coders and engineers, can be just as bad. Admittedly a part of me is rising to defend Rails but had that been ASP instead of Rails I would have been almost as scornful of the article. Objections off the top of my head; LOC is a terrible measure of anything. It only measure open source projects. What about non-scripting languages used for web-dev. The title says "Rails" but the graphs say "Ruby"; sensationalist hack. Now, I admit it; PHP is huge. Of course it is. It was the only real option for many years. I just hate that developers can be as prone to sensationalism as the media.
regards, Paul Watson Ireland FeedHenry needs you
eh, stop bugging me about it, give it a couple of days, see what happens.
Paul Watson wrote:
I just hate that developers can be as prone to sensationalism as the media.
You must hate quite often! :) I mean, think about it - what happened over the past few years when the next big thing came about:
oJava - remember how people initially reacted to Java? Lots of people bought into the whole Write Once, Run Everywhere dream.oBrowser-based apps - suddenly it was a good idea to take a quantum leap backwards in GUIs and go back to 3270ish form-based interfaces. (IRMA, anyone? :))o**4GL**s - 'nuff said.oRAD - some people still have not figured out that "faster" is not the same as "better". All things considered, I think that sensationalism is not all that bad to the common programmer - we are used to challenging things and finding out the truth (well, at least I am). I think that things like this can sometimes help - I want to see exactly how and why option#1is better than option#2, or better yet, to know the scenarios when it may or may not be the best choice. (E.g. the .Net platform is fine and dandy, but I do not yet want to write FSF drivers on it.) However, stuff like this is extremely dangerous to marketing people that like buzzwords and some CTO types that get all of their technology knowledge from magazines and then hand down edicts based on what they just read while sitting on the toilet... Peace!-=- James
If you think it costs a lot to do it right, just wait until you find out how much it costs to do it wrong!
Avoid driving a vehicle taller than you and remember that Professional Driver on Closed Course does not mean your Dumb Ass on a Public Road!
DeleteFXPFiles & CheckFavorites (Please rate this post!) -
Paul Watson wrote:
I just hate that developers can be as prone to sensationalism as the media.
Can be? You're joking, right? Developers are some of the most religious, dogma spewing, wool wearing creatures I've ever encountered. And after a previous lifetime of hanging out with musicians, that's really saying something. Rightly or wrongly (and most of us know which it really is), the thing that drives most technological decisions is not business need, suitability to task, productivity, the quality of the tools or anything else. Points are argued and decisions are made in an emotional frenzy of brand allegiance, religious preferences and prejudices, the weight of what toys we want to play with next, and how it will all look on our resume. That an app needs to be desktop or web, or developed using a given brand and type of language or set of technologies rarely has anything to do with whether or not that's the best decision from a business and user perspective. It's all about what the developers want to play with, because for us, this is entertainment as well as a profession. What comes both before the decision to drive it, and afterwards to justify it, is an endless stream of sensationalism, hype and emotional statements. We all like to blame Marketing and the Suits for the mess that most software projects become. However, a good deal of it starts with us. I'll now sit back and wait for the endless stream of sensationalism, hype and emotional statements to explain why I'm wrong about this. :-D
Author of The Career Programmer and Unite the Tribes www.PracticalStrategyConsulting.com
Christopher Duncan wrote:
I'll now sit back and wait for the endless stream of sensationalism, hype and emotional statements to explain why I'm wrong about this.
Not exactly wrong (you got my
5)... Some overall software failures are due to developers themselves and for the reasons you mention (like resume buffing). But in most of the business I have worked in/with (or know someone that has), the Suits often have a lot more to do with it because they are listening to the wrong people - if the CTO has not coded in 10 years, they cannot simpy quote Visual Studio magazine articles as good reasons to switch to technologyXYZ. I am not trying to start a whole us .vs. them thing here; I know that "we all" have to work together on a unified vision - but I will say that the path to that vision often needs much more consideration and experienced eyes on it than is normally given to it. Peace!-=- James
If you think it costs a lot to do it right, just wait until you find out how much it costs to do it wrong!
Avoid driving a vehicle taller than you and remember that Professional Driver on Closed Course does not mean your Dumb Ass on a Public Road!
DeleteFXPFiles & CheckFavorites (Please rate this post!) -
After reading PHP eats Rails for breakfast[^] I felt distinctally saddened. We complain about marketers and the media for being sensationalist hacks and yet we, we programmers and developers and coders and engineers, can be just as bad. Admittedly a part of me is rising to defend Rails but had that been ASP instead of Rails I would have been almost as scornful of the article. Objections off the top of my head; LOC is a terrible measure of anything. It only measure open source projects. What about non-scripting languages used for web-dev. The title says "Rails" but the graphs say "Ruby"; sensationalist hack. Now, I admit it; PHP is huge. Of course it is. It was the only real option for many years. I just hate that developers can be as prone to sensationalism as the media.
regards, Paul Watson Ireland FeedHenry needs you
eh, stop bugging me about it, give it a couple of days, see what happens.
So how would you present it, were you the author of that article? Which areas would you focus on, and why? IMHO the article only demonstrates how PHP is more dominant than other scripting languages. So how else do you do it, if not by comparing LOC, number of active developers and new projects started (where PHP is far behind Rails)? The article doesn't even try to say which is better or more powerful. Only which of them has the market dominance. Or did I miss your point (and the article's point as well) completely?
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After reading PHP eats Rails for breakfast[^] I felt distinctally saddened. We complain about marketers and the media for being sensationalist hacks and yet we, we programmers and developers and coders and engineers, can be just as bad. Admittedly a part of me is rising to defend Rails but had that been ASP instead of Rails I would have been almost as scornful of the article. Objections off the top of my head; LOC is a terrible measure of anything. It only measure open source projects. What about non-scripting languages used for web-dev. The title says "Rails" but the graphs say "Ruby"; sensationalist hack. Now, I admit it; PHP is huge. Of course it is. It was the only real option for many years. I just hate that developers can be as prone to sensationalism as the media.
regards, Paul Watson Ireland FeedHenry needs you
eh, stop bugging me about it, give it a couple of days, see what happens.
Disclaimer: i haven't read the linked article. These sorts of metrics are fun, similar to how Google Fight is fun - they provide cheap fodder for flame wars. But they don't actually mean anything! Next week, it'll be a report on how Rails is eating PHP's breakfast in the area of hip Web 2.37 sites. The week after, it'll be how JSP 0wnzez teh Enterprize. And they'll all be meaningless. Microsoft had "studies" commissioned showing the power and popularity of NT+IIS as a webserver clear back in the days when no-one in their right mind would consider it a viable platform in terms of actual performance. And Linux was touted as a "multimedia platform" back when programs needed to write their own sound servers in order to get more than a beep out of the thing. Pick the right metrics, exclude the wrong, keep the customers happy...
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After reading PHP eats Rails for breakfast[^] I felt distinctally saddened. We complain about marketers and the media for being sensationalist hacks and yet we, we programmers and developers and coders and engineers, can be just as bad. Admittedly a part of me is rising to defend Rails but had that been ASP instead of Rails I would have been almost as scornful of the article. Objections off the top of my head; LOC is a terrible measure of anything. It only measure open source projects. What about non-scripting languages used for web-dev. The title says "Rails" but the graphs say "Ruby"; sensationalist hack. Now, I admit it; PHP is huge. Of course it is. It was the only real option for many years. I just hate that developers can be as prone to sensationalism as the media.
regards, Paul Watson Ireland FeedHenry needs you
eh, stop bugging me about it, give it a couple of days, see what happens.
Paul Watson wrote:
we programmers and developers and coders and engineers, can be just as bad.
Exactly. The proof is in the pudding; I mean why else did you get voted down?
Jeremy Falcon A multithreaded, OpenGL-enabled application.[^]
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Paul Watson wrote:
I just hate that developers can be as prone to sensationalism as the media.
Can be? You're joking, right? Developers are some of the most religious, dogma spewing, wool wearing creatures I've ever encountered. And after a previous lifetime of hanging out with musicians, that's really saying something. Rightly or wrongly (and most of us know which it really is), the thing that drives most technological decisions is not business need, suitability to task, productivity, the quality of the tools or anything else. Points are argued and decisions are made in an emotional frenzy of brand allegiance, religious preferences and prejudices, the weight of what toys we want to play with next, and how it will all look on our resume. That an app needs to be desktop or web, or developed using a given brand and type of language or set of technologies rarely has anything to do with whether or not that's the best decision from a business and user perspective. It's all about what the developers want to play with, because for us, this is entertainment as well as a profession. What comes both before the decision to drive it, and afterwards to justify it, is an endless stream of sensationalism, hype and emotional statements. We all like to blame Marketing and the Suits for the mess that most software projects become. However, a good deal of it starts with us. I'll now sit back and wait for the endless stream of sensationalism, hype and emotional statements to explain why I'm wrong about this. :-D
Author of The Career Programmer and Unite the Tribes www.PracticalStrategyConsulting.com
Christopher Duncan wrote:
I'll now sit back and wait for the endless stream of sensationalism, hype and emotional statements to explain why I'm wrong about this.
I so agree with this ten thousand fold.
Jeremy Falcon A multithreaded, OpenGL-enabled application.[^]
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My point was simply that the entire focus of a lot of media (developer formed as well as people who did a two week Word course in high school and now write technology sections) these days is all to do with the current Buzz Words. You see very few C++ vs. Java things(articles, charts, love letters) anymore. It is all AJAX this and Ruby that. Buzz Words. On a slightly different note I think there is life in PHP still. Windows boxes are supposedly going to be able to run it faster. Not to mention many high profile sites still use it, YouTube and Gmail to name 2.
Brad Australian Save the Glass House (Fill in the complaint form to the ABC) Glass House Home Page (May as well get hooked while you still can)
Bradml wrote:
YouTube and Gmail
Didn't know that. I just assumed they rolled their own high-end platforms.
"For fifty bucks I'd put my face in their soup and blow." - George Costanza
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