Hungarian notation
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Christopher Duncan wrote:
Why would a straightforward and easy to grasp system of conveying crucial information to the programmer at a glance suddenly become so unpopular?
Suddenly? I've hated it since i first saw it - any excuse to ditch it is fine by me... FWIW: the way i heard it explained, The Mad Hungarian originally came up with The Notation as a way to convey meaning as to how the variable would be used. So integers that store coordinates get a different prefix than integers storing measurements which are different than loop counters... This actually makes a bit of sense, if you can be consistent. But the number of times i've seen that done correctly and consistently... well, i could probably count it on the fingers of one foot. Add in all the shitty code out there using incorrect or misleading prefixes, and it becomes an active hindrance. Also, it isn't really Intellisense friendly.
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Shog9 wrote:
The Mad Hungarian originally came up with The Notation as a way to convey meaning as to how the variable would be used. So integers that store coordinates get a different prefix than integers storing measurements which are different than loop counters...
Yes, I'd read that too. Then everyone, including MS, got the wrong end of the stick and started using it to denote type.
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I've noticed that the C# folks at Microsoft have promoted a different naming convention that uses no variable type prefix. At the same time, I've observed that it's now trendy for people to dislike Hungarian notation. When I first started Windows programming Hungarian was indeed strange to get used to. But then, so was the Windows API. However, these days when I look at variable names without it and am left to either guess or search through the code to determine what the variable type is, I find myself thinking that these variable names are only one step removed from the old Basic days of names such as A, B, etc. Why would a straightforward and easy to grasp system of conveying crucial information to the programmer at a glance suddenly become so unpopular? Is there technical reasoning behind it, or is it just a new generation who feels that they must do things differently than those who came before in order to proclaim their identity?
Author of The Career Programmer and Unite the Tribes www.PracticalStrategyConsulting.com
You don't follow our weekly polls, do you :) It is funny how people get passionate about such insignificant things as code styles. I tend to use whatever is "standard" for the technology I work on at any moment: for platform-independent or Unix-only C++ it is K&R style, for Windows system programming it is Hungarian, for .NET I follow the MS recommendations (also enforced by FxCop, IIRC), etc, etc...
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The Grand Negus wrote:
Put the pen in the drawer. vPut aThe nPen pIn aThe nDrawer.
Drawer->PutPen()would be better than both of them :) Because this doesn't really require a full understanding of English grammar and sentence semantics.Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. (*Sample chapter available online*)Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
Drawer->PutPen() would be better than both of them
Not really - it is not the drawer that performs the operation :)
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Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
Drawer->PutPen() would be better than both of them
Not really - it is not the drawer that performs the operation :)
Nemanja Trifunovic wrote:
Not really - it is not the drawer that performs the operation
Maybe :
Pen->PutInDrawer()then :-)Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. (*Sample chapter available online*) -
The Grand Negus wrote:
Put the pen in the drawer. vPut aThe nPen pIn aThe nDrawer.
Drawer->PutPen()would be better than both of them :) Because this doesn't really require a full understanding of English grammar and sentence semantics.Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. (*Sample chapter available online*)Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
Drawer->PutPen() would be better than both of them Because this doesn't really require a full understanding of English grammar and sentence semantics.
I hope you're kidding. First of all, show that statement to any non-programmer and see if they don't think the arrow is backwards. Secondly, remember that millions of English speakers who don't have a "full understanding English grammar and sentence semantics" communicate quite effectively, in English, every day. Natural languages work, even when they're poorly used and/or not fully understood by the speakers. That's why everybody uses them. Even you.
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A reasonable point. However, not everyone writes code in the IDE. In fact, I'm continually surprised that anyone does. :)
Author of The Career Programmer and Unite the Tribes www.PracticalStrategyConsulting.com
Christopher Duncan wrote:
However, not everyone writes code in the IDE.
Specially when reading article code
Engaged in learning of English grammar ;)
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.(John 3:16) :badger: -
I've noticed that the C# folks at Microsoft have promoted a different naming convention that uses no variable type prefix. At the same time, I've observed that it's now trendy for people to dislike Hungarian notation. When I first started Windows programming Hungarian was indeed strange to get used to. But then, so was the Windows API. However, these days when I look at variable names without it and am left to either guess or search through the code to determine what the variable type is, I find myself thinking that these variable names are only one step removed from the old Basic days of names such as A, B, etc. Why would a straightforward and easy to grasp system of conveying crucial information to the programmer at a glance suddenly become so unpopular? Is there technical reasoning behind it, or is it just a new generation who feels that they must do things differently than those who came before in order to proclaim their identity?
Author of The Career Programmer and Unite the Tribes www.PracticalStrategyConsulting.com
I hated Hungarian notation from day one. The one thing I was already doing was prefixing all pointers with a lowercase "p" since this distinction is critical in C and C++ programming. Again, I was already doing this! One of the first things I do when going through a template generated MFC project is to remove all the hungarian notation. Have been doing it for years. (I also remove all the dumb comments littering the files and fix the indenting.) In C++, one of the problems with Hungarian notation is that a type may change. I can't count the number of times the notation makes no sense; like a variable named nSomething being a bool, or szName being a CString or bCaptured being an int and so forth. (Yes, this could be fixed by search and replace, but had the variable been named plainly to begin with, it wouldn't matter.) (Besides, like the Wikipedia article pointed out, the original main idea was to convey the purpose of a variable with notation, not its type.)
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
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zoid ! wrote:
Suppose later a requirement comes to make it a float. Now every occurance in the code needs to be changed to fTotal.
and how often do you do that without then going to every place you use the variable, to make sure you're not losing precision, generating overflows, truncating, etc ? or do you just change the type and hope for the best ? point is: changing the type is not a one-spot change. you should be revisiting all the code that uses that variable, which gives you a chance to change the name, while you're at it. and when you get right down to it, changing the name is going to make it very easy for you to find all those places, because the compiler is going to angrily point out each and every one of them for you.
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You do it quite often while prototyping / designing a class. As someone pointed out earlier if you choose proper variable names you don't need to indicate their type. "userName" should never be a float. It is obvious that you need to go and inspect the code, but now in addition to inspection you need to perform modification as well.
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Nemanja Trifunovic wrote:
Not really - it is not the drawer that performs the operation
Maybe :
Pen->PutInDrawer()then :-)Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. (*Sample chapter available online*)Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
Maybe : Pen->PutInDrawer() then
Hehehe, but the pen is not performing the operation either. I would go with something like:
Nish->Put(pen, drawer);
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zoid ! wrote:
Suppose you code up your application using a variable "total" and decide to declare it as an int. So you have a variable called iTotal. Suppose later a requirement comes to make it a float. Now every occurance in the code needs to be changed to fTotal.
You're going to have to change all those references to a
floatanyway, so changing the name of the variable does not add any more work.
"Approved Workmen Are Not Ashamed" - 2 Timothy 2:15
"Judge not by the eye but by the heart." - Native American Proverb
really? There are many cases where it is a lot more work.. (Very contrived) example:
PerformSomeAlgorithm(int* piValue) { for(..) { piValue[i] = piValue[i-1]; if(piValue[i]>someConstant) piValue[i]*=2; : : } }Now lets change the function to PerformSomeAlgorithm(float* pfValue)... -
I've noticed that the C# folks at Microsoft have promoted a different naming convention that uses no variable type prefix. At the same time, I've observed that it's now trendy for people to dislike Hungarian notation. When I first started Windows programming Hungarian was indeed strange to get used to. But then, so was the Windows API. However, these days when I look at variable names without it and am left to either guess or search through the code to determine what the variable type is, I find myself thinking that these variable names are only one step removed from the old Basic days of names such as A, B, etc. Why would a straightforward and easy to grasp system of conveying crucial information to the programmer at a glance suddenly become so unpopular? Is there technical reasoning behind it, or is it just a new generation who feels that they must do things differently than those who came before in order to proclaim their identity?
Author of The Career Programmer and Unite the Tribes www.PracticalStrategyConsulting.com
In some cases Hungarian notation is used yet to name controls of forms and webforms, like "textboxName" or "checkboxIsFlameWar".
Christopher Duncan wrote:
I find myself thinking that these variable names are only one step removed from the old Basic days of names such as A, B, etc.
It's not a common situation. Usually you can determine what the variable type is with intellisense or reading the context (not true for javascript, of course). By example
Engaged in learning of English grammar ;)
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.(John 3:16) :badger: -
MS said Jump Left, they all jumped left. MS said Jump Right, they all jumped right.
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I think we were all waiting to jump away from that awful Hungarian notation, anyways. Microsoft just gave us an excuse to ditch it for good.
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really? There are many cases where it is a lot more work.. (Very contrived) example:
PerformSomeAlgorithm(int* piValue) { for(..) { piValue[i] = piValue[i-1]; if(piValue[i]>someConstant) piValue[i]*=2; : : } }Now lets change the function to PerformSomeAlgorithm(float* pfValue)...Most text editors have a search & replace feature.
"Approved Workmen Are Not Ashamed" - 2 Timothy 2:15
"Judge not by the eye but by the heart." - Native American Proverb
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I've noticed that the C# folks at Microsoft have promoted a different naming convention that uses no variable type prefix. At the same time, I've observed that it's now trendy for people to dislike Hungarian notation. When I first started Windows programming Hungarian was indeed strange to get used to. But then, so was the Windows API. However, these days when I look at variable names without it and am left to either guess or search through the code to determine what the variable type is, I find myself thinking that these variable names are only one step removed from the old Basic days of names such as A, B, etc. Why would a straightforward and easy to grasp system of conveying crucial information to the programmer at a glance suddenly become so unpopular? Is there technical reasoning behind it, or is it just a new generation who feels that they must do things differently than those who came before in order to proclaim their identity?
Author of The Career Programmer and Unite the Tribes www.PracticalStrategyConsulting.com
Christopher Duncan wrote:
Why would a straightforward and easy to grasp system of conveying crucial information to the programmer at a glance suddenly become so unpopular?
Any number of reasons. I like it and use it almost exclusively.
"Approved Workmen Are Not Ashamed" - 2 Timothy 2:15
"Judge not by the eye but by the heart." - Native American Proverb
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Christopher Duncan wrote:
Why would a straightforward and easy to grasp system of conveying crucial information to the programmer at a glance suddenly become so unpopular?
Any number of reasons. I like it and use it almost exclusively.
"Approved Workmen Are Not Ashamed" - 2 Timothy 2:15
"Judge not by the eye but by the heart." - Native American Proverb
DavidCrow wrote:
I like it and use it almost exclusively.
In .NET?
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. (*Sample chapter available online*) -
DavidCrow wrote:
I like it and use it almost exclusively.
In .NET?
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. (*Sample chapter available online*)No, .NET and I have yet to cross paths.
"Approved Workmen Are Not Ashamed" - 2 Timothy 2:15
"Judge not by the eye but by the heart." - Native American Proverb
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No, .NET and I have yet to cross paths.
"Approved Workmen Are Not Ashamed" - 2 Timothy 2:15
"Judge not by the eye but by the heart." - Native American Proverb
DavidCrow wrote:
No, .NET and I have yet to cross paths.
Okay, but Chris D was asking about people using (or not using) Hungarian notation with C#. So I was a bit surprised when you replied saying you use that exclusively :-)
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. (*Sample chapter available online*) -
Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
Maybe : Pen->PutInDrawer() then
Hehehe, but the pen is not performing the operation either. I would go with something like:
Nish->Put(pen, drawer);
Yeah, that looks better :-)
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
Currently working on C++/CLI in Action for Manning Publications. (*Sample chapter available online*) -
I've noticed that the C# folks at Microsoft have promoted a different naming convention that uses no variable type prefix. At the same time, I've observed that it's now trendy for people to dislike Hungarian notation. When I first started Windows programming Hungarian was indeed strange to get used to. But then, so was the Windows API. However, these days when I look at variable names without it and am left to either guess or search through the code to determine what the variable type is, I find myself thinking that these variable names are only one step removed from the old Basic days of names such as A, B, etc. Why would a straightforward and easy to grasp system of conveying crucial information to the programmer at a glance suddenly become so unpopular? Is there technical reasoning behind it, or is it just a new generation who feels that they must do things differently than those who came before in order to proclaim their identity?
Author of The Career Programmer and Unite the Tribes www.PracticalStrategyConsulting.com
(too lazy to read the whole thread) The problem is that the original purpose of Hungarian was lost. Hungarian should be about showing the purpose of a variable, which is not necessarily its type (as defined by the language). For example, an
intor aDWORDcould have a prefix ofcchto mean "count of characters." This tells you what the variable is for, and doesn't give any indication of its type. What happened later (and I don't know the timeline exactly) is people forgot (or never learned) about the purpose aspect of Hungarian, and thought it was just an indicator of the variable's type. It's this altered Hungarian that people protest against. Original Hungarian, though, is extremely useful in indicating information that the language can't express or verify. A great example iscbversuscch- count of bytes versus count of characters. The distinction is hugely important when dealing with buffers and Unicode strings.--Mike-- Visual C++ MVP :cool: LINKS~! Ericahist | PimpFish | CP SearchBar v3.0 | C++ Forum FAQ Ford, what's this fish doing in my ear?
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A reasonable point. However, not everyone writes code in the IDE. In fact, I'm continually surprised that anyone does. :)
Author of The Career Programmer and Unite the Tribes www.PracticalStrategyConsulting.com
Christopher Duncan wrote:
A reasonable point. However, not everyone writes code in the IDE. In fact, I'm continually surprised that anyone does.
I'm surprised. For C# development, the VS2005 IDE can't really be beaten. I certainly wouldn't consider using anything else.
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