Specialty GIS Development Job Market Observation [modified]
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Aaron VanWieren wrote:
I am just curious what people think of the current observed desire for hiring GIS Developers
What's the difference. I used to "do" GIS. From 1994 to 2003. I don't see the difference between developing against a spatially aware database and a regular one. You still have a set of business rules to contend with, you still have managers wanting things yesterday, you still have users that are unsatisfied because the software doesn't do exactly what they need it to do. What would be better is if there were some sort of spatially aware extension to SQL Server so that you could write queries such as:
SELECT *
FROM Insured
INNER JOIN FloodRisk ON Insured.Location INSIDE FloodRisk.AreaMy favourite GIS Training course was the Smallworld GIS one. As part of the training you had to write a query that started off at Smallworld's offices and found all the pubs along the route back to your hotel.
Upcoming events: * Edinburgh: Web Security Conference Day for Windows Developers (12th April) * Glasgow: Introduction to AJAX (2nd May), SQL Server, Mock Objects My website
The bulk of GIS uses ESRI which uses SDE as the primary spatial database layer. SDE is cost intensive when it comes to performance and does not give you allot of flexibility in working with your data. I guess the big difference is the type of software being developed. Some companies have applications that use GIS which requires less knowledge of geography,where as others the applications being developed are all geography/GIS base applications that utilize the theory of Geography for it's implementations
Colin Angus Mackay wrote:
My favourite GIS Training course was the Smallworld GIS one. As part of the training you had to write a query that started off at Smallworld's offices and found all the pubs along the route back to your hotel.
Beats some of the stuff I did in undergrad which worked in solving locations of the donut shop in relation to the police station in Redlands:-D I think overall it really comes down to what type of application you are building and how much spatial processing is required.
_____________________________________________________________________ Our developers never release code. Rather, it tends to escape, pillaging the countryside all around. The Enlightenment Project (paraphrased comment) Visit Me at GISDevCafe
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I just got back from a developer summit for Geographic Information Systems(GIS) hosted last week and the thing that struck me the hardest was the number of potential jobs currently open world wide in GIS software engineering and development. At the closing session the president of the company indicated they were currently looking for roughly 500 people to hire, as well others I met indicated the issues they were having filling positions in Australia, Norway... everywhere. I am just amazed at how hard it is hiring for this specialty market. My company has had a position open for months now and still have not filled it. I know in some ways it is learning another API and company specific terminology, but on the other hand, the field requires vast expertise in thinking spatially and understanding theoretical geography. I am just curious what people think of the current observed desire for hiring GIS Developers and software engineers and opinions on this trend. -- modified at 17:07 Wednesday 28th March, 2007
_____________________________________________________________________ Our developers never release code. Rather, it tends to escape, pillaging the countryside all around. The Enlightenment Project (paraphrased comment) Visit Me at GISDevCafe
I follow the GIS market and find that most employers are offering far too little for what they are asking for. Even though that's what i believe i also understand the market is driven by supply and demand. I have to assume that, based on the amounts being offered, the market is saturated. It also seems to me that few companies understand what skills are transferable. e.g. Someone who has extensive experience as a consultant for ESRI products would likely have to start at the bottom if they wanted to move to another vendor, even though it would likely only take 2-4 weeks to learn enough of the new vendor specific API to become productive. I could be wrong, but that's my perception of the market.
...cmk Save the whales - collect the whole set
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Aaron VanWieren wrote:
I am just curious what people think of the current observed desire for hiring GIS Developers
What's the difference. I used to "do" GIS. From 1994 to 2003. I don't see the difference between developing against a spatially aware database and a regular one. You still have a set of business rules to contend with, you still have managers wanting things yesterday, you still have users that are unsatisfied because the software doesn't do exactly what they need it to do. What would be better is if there were some sort of spatially aware extension to SQL Server so that you could write queries such as:
SELECT *
FROM Insured
INNER JOIN FloodRisk ON Insured.Location INSIDE FloodRisk.AreaMy favourite GIS Training course was the Smallworld GIS one. As part of the training you had to write a query that started off at Smallworld's offices and found all the pubs along the route back to your hotel.
Upcoming events: * Edinburgh: Web Security Conference Day for Windows Developers (12th April) * Glasgow: Introduction to AJAX (2nd May), SQL Server, Mock Objects My website
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I follow the GIS market and find that most employers are offering far too little for what they are asking for. Even though that's what i believe i also understand the market is driven by supply and demand. I have to assume that, based on the amounts being offered, the market is saturated. It also seems to me that few companies understand what skills are transferable. e.g. Someone who has extensive experience as a consultant for ESRI products would likely have to start at the bottom if they wanted to move to another vendor, even though it would likely only take 2-4 weeks to learn enough of the new vendor specific API to become productive. I could be wrong, but that's my perception of the market.
...cmk Save the whales - collect the whole set
cmk wrote:
Even though that's what i believe i also understand the market is driven by supply and demand. I have to assume that, based on the amounts being offered, the market is saturated.
Actually, the GIS market is growing leaps and bounds but I don't think the market is saturated. The amounts being offered is a remnant from the pay scales offered for Geographers in the 80's and early nineties. The industry still regards itself within the context of social science and not a technological specialty. My 2cents worth.
_____________________________________________________________________ Our developers never release code. Rather, it tends to escape, pillaging the countryside all around. The Enlightenment Project (paraphrased comment) Visit Me at GISDevCafe
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Colin Angus Mackay wrote:
What would be better is if there were some sort of spatially aware extension to SQL Server
Like this: http://www.codeplex.com/Wiki/View.aspx?ProjectName=MsSqlSpatial[^]
...cmk Save the whales - collect the whole set
That's excellent. It looks like it is still in the very early stages at the moment, but I really look forward to it.
Upcoming events: * Edinburgh: Web Security Conference Day for Windows Developers (12th April) * Glasgow: Introduction to AJAX (2nd May), SQL Server, Mock Objects My website
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I just got back from a developer summit for Geographic Information Systems(GIS) hosted last week and the thing that struck me the hardest was the number of potential jobs currently open world wide in GIS software engineering and development. At the closing session the president of the company indicated they were currently looking for roughly 500 people to hire, as well others I met indicated the issues they were having filling positions in Australia, Norway... everywhere. I am just amazed at how hard it is hiring for this specialty market. My company has had a position open for months now and still have not filled it. I know in some ways it is learning another API and company specific terminology, but on the other hand, the field requires vast expertise in thinking spatially and understanding theoretical geography. I am just curious what people think of the current observed desire for hiring GIS Developers and software engineers and opinions on this trend. -- modified at 17:07 Wednesday 28th March, 2007
_____________________________________________________________________ Our developers never release code. Rather, it tends to escape, pillaging the countryside all around. The Enlightenment Project (paraphrased comment) Visit Me at GISDevCafe
Hi, I personally think that being a software developer is not that hot anymore and is viewed by outsiders as an uncertain personal future due to the fact that hiring/firing is depending on the global market and the payment for a junior programmer job is so low that you better work as a carpenter because you make more money in overtime. What is left are corporations that have products in mind and can't find programmers to do the job and hopefully understand that no-one gives a damm if they go down since they are no option to build a future on as a programmer so people choose a different profession!
With friendly greetings,:) Eric Goedhart Interbritt
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Hi, I personally think that being a software developer is not that hot anymore and is viewed by outsiders as an uncertain personal future due to the fact that hiring/firing is depending on the global market and the payment for a junior programmer job is so low that you better work as a carpenter because you make more money in overtime. What is left are corporations that have products in mind and can't find programmers to do the job and hopefully understand that no-one gives a damm if they go down since they are no option to build a future on as a programmer so people choose a different profession!
With friendly greetings,:) Eric Goedhart Interbritt
The Atlanta market seems to be doing really well if you are a junior to senior level developer. There are few entry level, but tons of specialty positions open. Interesting.
_____________________________________________________________________ Our developers never release code. Rather, it tends to escape, pillaging the countryside all around. The Enlightenment Project (paraphrased comment) Visit Me at GISDevCafe
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Aaron VanWieren wrote:
the field requires vast expertise in thinking spatially and understanding theoretical geography
Balderdash. Most programming requires only a scant understanding of the alleged specialized field. Generally, you only need to hire a few, perhaps even one, genuine super expert. Have that person, or group, write the specialized code and then have application development experts like me write the application around that code.
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
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Aaron VanWieren wrote:
the field requires vast expertise in thinking spatially and understanding theoretical geography
Balderdash. Most programming requires only a scant understanding of the alleged specialized field. Generally, you only need to hire a few, perhaps even one, genuine super expert. Have that person, or group, write the specialized code and then have application development experts like me write the application around that code.
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
I disagree. You can live with one super expert and a bunch of code monkeys, but communication is much easier when you understand a bit of the problem domain.
We are a big screwed up dysfunctional psychotic happy family - some more screwed up, others more happy, but everybody's psychotic joint venture definition of CP
My first real C# project | Linkify!|FoldWithUs! | sighist -
The Atlanta market seems to be doing really well if you are a junior to senior level developer. There are few entry level, but tons of specialty positions open. Interesting.
_____________________________________________________________________ Our developers never release code. Rather, it tends to escape, pillaging the countryside all around. The Enlightenment Project (paraphrased comment) Visit Me at GISDevCafe
Hi Aaron, I think the market of jobs is great everywhere but the people available are very low, and will stay low since the industry only want's to capitalize on the market demands without affordable educational options and long term job security.
With friendly greetings,:) Eric Goedhart Interbritt
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Exactly!!! You from NM, what part?
_____________________________________________________________________ Our developers never release code. Rather, it tends to escape, pillaging the countryside all around. The Enlightenment Project (paraphrased comment) Visit Me at GISDevCafe
Aaron VanWieren wrote:
You from NM, what part?
The white-sandy part.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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I disagree. You can live with one super expert and a bunch of code monkeys, but communication is much easier when you understand a bit of the problem domain.
We are a big screwed up dysfunctional psychotic happy family - some more screwed up, others more happy, but everybody's psychotic joint venture definition of CP
My first real C# project | Linkify!|FoldWithUs! | sighistpeterchen wrote:
You can live with one super expert and a bunch of code monkeys
I'm not talking code monkeys. Can't stand the buggers. I'm talking people who are specialists in different areas. People of this caliber will learn about the other specialties enough to deal intelligently with them.
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
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I follow the GIS market and find that most employers are offering far too little for what they are asking for. Even though that's what i believe i also understand the market is driven by supply and demand. I have to assume that, based on the amounts being offered, the market is saturated. It also seems to me that few companies understand what skills are transferable. e.g. Someone who has extensive experience as a consultant for ESRI products would likely have to start at the bottom if they wanted to move to another vendor, even though it would likely only take 2-4 weeks to learn enough of the new vendor specific API to become productive. I could be wrong, but that's my perception of the market.
...cmk Save the whales - collect the whole set
cmk wrote:
Someone who has extensive experience as a consultant for ESRI products would likely have to start at the bottom if they wanted to move to another vendor, even though it would likely only take 2-4 weeks to learn enough of the new vendor specific API to become productive. I could be wrong, but that's my perception of the market.
I think that happens in all walks. My current employer takes the view, during the hiring process, that if a person is sufficiently enthusiastic about software development in general then cross training them will be easy. However, that is an uncommon view.
Upcoming events: * Edinburgh: Web Security Conference Day for Windows Developers (12th April) * Glasgow: Introduction to AJAX (2nd May), SQL Server, Mock Objects My website
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cmk wrote:
Even though that's what i believe i also understand the market is driven by supply and demand. I have to assume that, based on the amounts being offered, the market is saturated.
Actually, the GIS market is growing leaps and bounds but I don't think the market is saturated. The amounts being offered is a remnant from the pay scales offered for Geographers in the 80's and early nineties. The industry still regards itself within the context of social science and not a technological specialty. My 2cents worth.
_____________________________________________________________________ Our developers never release code. Rather, it tends to escape, pillaging the countryside all around. The Enlightenment Project (paraphrased comment) Visit Me at GISDevCafe
Aaron VanWieren wrote:
The industry still regards itself within the context of social science and not a technological specialty.
Thus I do spatially aware real-time 3D, it's just gaming+GIS, but it sounds more technical. :cool:
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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I just got back from a developer summit for Geographic Information Systems(GIS) hosted last week and the thing that struck me the hardest was the number of potential jobs currently open world wide in GIS software engineering and development. At the closing session the president of the company indicated they were currently looking for roughly 500 people to hire, as well others I met indicated the issues they were having filling positions in Australia, Norway... everywhere. I am just amazed at how hard it is hiring for this specialty market. My company has had a position open for months now and still have not filled it. I know in some ways it is learning another API and company specific terminology, but on the other hand, the field requires vast expertise in thinking spatially and understanding theoretical geography. I am just curious what people think of the current observed desire for hiring GIS Developers and software engineers and opinions on this trend. -- modified at 17:07 Wednesday 28th March, 2007
_____________________________________________________________________ Our developers never release code. Rather, it tends to escape, pillaging the countryside all around. The Enlightenment Project (paraphrased comment) Visit Me at GISDevCafe
Yes, this trend also occurs in China as well, but advanced GIS specialist are the most welcome people.
A guy from Shanghai working on WebGIS
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Aaron VanWieren wrote:
the field requires vast expertise in thinking spatially and understanding theoretical geography
Balderdash. Most programming requires only a scant understanding of the alleged specialized field. Generally, you only need to hire a few, perhaps even one, genuine super expert. Have that person, or group, write the specialized code and then have application development experts like me write the application around that code.
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
From what I have observed, even the "Super Experts" are just muddling their way through things -they just have the authourity and self confidence to get away with it. After a while working with them, it becomes evident that there are big holes in their knowlege of their supposed fields, its just their charisma that keeps the team together.
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I just got back from a developer summit for Geographic Information Systems(GIS) hosted last week and the thing that struck me the hardest was the number of potential jobs currently open world wide in GIS software engineering and development. At the closing session the president of the company indicated they were currently looking for roughly 500 people to hire, as well others I met indicated the issues they were having filling positions in Australia, Norway... everywhere. I am just amazed at how hard it is hiring for this specialty market. My company has had a position open for months now and still have not filled it. I know in some ways it is learning another API and company specific terminology, but on the other hand, the field requires vast expertise in thinking spatially and understanding theoretical geography. I am just curious what people think of the current observed desire for hiring GIS Developers and software engineers and opinions on this trend. -- modified at 17:07 Wednesday 28th March, 2007
_____________________________________________________________________ Our developers never release code. Rather, it tends to escape, pillaging the countryside all around. The Enlightenment Project (paraphrased comment) Visit Me at GISDevCafe
It's probably because they aren't offering a competitive package. The only way to get good developers is to offer good working conditions, decent equipment/tools (and no quibbling over minor capital purchases) , and good salary/hourly rate (offer staff enough and believe me they'll come. You get what you pay for). I worked for a subsea acoustic navigation system vendor (a related field) for 6 years and they were one of the better companies in that regard (I left in 2004 on £41k + PRP bonus). By contrast, I routinely receive (and ignore) emails from recruiters trying to sell permanent positions in the £30-35k range. The most incompetant of those tried to sell me a £25k field service engineer position the other day. Mind you, I only open their emails for entertainment these days...:rolleyes:
Anna :rose: Linting the day away :cool: Anna's Place | Tears and Laughter "If mushy peas are the food of the devil, the stotty cake is the frisbee of God"
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I just got back from a developer summit for Geographic Information Systems(GIS) hosted last week and the thing that struck me the hardest was the number of potential jobs currently open world wide in GIS software engineering and development. At the closing session the president of the company indicated they were currently looking for roughly 500 people to hire, as well others I met indicated the issues they were having filling positions in Australia, Norway... everywhere. I am just amazed at how hard it is hiring for this specialty market. My company has had a position open for months now and still have not filled it. I know in some ways it is learning another API and company specific terminology, but on the other hand, the field requires vast expertise in thinking spatially and understanding theoretical geography. I am just curious what people think of the current observed desire for hiring GIS Developers and software engineers and opinions on this trend. -- modified at 17:07 Wednesday 28th March, 2007
_____________________________________________________________________ Our developers never release code. Rather, it tends to escape, pillaging the countryside all around. The Enlightenment Project (paraphrased comment) Visit Me at GISDevCafe
If I had to guess, I would say that the hiring companies are having problems for one reason: They want programming experience in GIS but are not willing to pay for such a specialized field of Software Engineering. I work for a package delivery company and we have a suite of routing software that we sell to other delivery companies. I am an independent and have been working on this routing software for 4+ years now. That is a long time for any independent to stay on one project! But here is the kicker. My colleagues who wrote the original mapping code (drawing, path finding, geocoding, etc.) have been with the company for 14+ years! That is unheard of in the Software Engineering dicipline. So you have to ask yourself, "Why?" The answer goes back to my one reason above. As full time employees of the company, these GIS Software Engineers command a salary in the high 80's to mid 90's NOT including a very generous yearly bonus which has, in the past, been equivalent to 6 months salary (though, admittedly, those days are gone and 2 or 3 months is the norm now). Cash compensation is well over 6 figures. So the companies that are having a hard time finding knowledgeable GIS Software Engineers need to realize that they can't look at standard salary surveys. They must admit that GIS programming is very unique and pony up some dough.
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Try finding some stuff on ESRI development sites and then tell me if you are really committed. I often end up working with little to no documentation and comment less code examples. The company has always been terrible with this. Also, there is little to none community of developers in this area. You sure you wanna try:laugh:
_____________________________________________________________________ Our developers never release code. Rather, it tends to escape, pillaging the countryside all around. The Enlightenment Project (paraphrased comment) Visit Me at GISDevCafe
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Aaron VanWieren wrote:
You from NM, what part?
The white-sandy part.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
I graduated from UNM in 2002. Absolutely love it there.:)
_____________________________________________________________________ Our developers never release code. Rather, it tends to escape, pillaging the countryside all around. The Enlightenment Project (paraphrased comment) Visit Me at GISDevCafe