Specialty GIS Development Job Market Observation [modified]
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I just got back from a developer summit for Geographic Information Systems(GIS) hosted last week and the thing that struck me the hardest was the number of potential jobs currently open world wide in GIS software engineering and development. At the closing session the president of the company indicated they were currently looking for roughly 500 people to hire, as well others I met indicated the issues they were having filling positions in Australia, Norway... everywhere. I am just amazed at how hard it is hiring for this specialty market. My company has had a position open for months now and still have not filled it. I know in some ways it is learning another API and company specific terminology, but on the other hand, the field requires vast expertise in thinking spatially and understanding theoretical geography. I am just curious what people think of the current observed desire for hiring GIS Developers and software engineers and opinions on this trend. -- modified at 17:07 Wednesday 28th March, 2007
_____________________________________________________________________ Our developers never release code. Rather, it tends to escape, pillaging the countryside all around. The Enlightenment Project (paraphrased comment) Visit Me at GISDevCafe
If I had to guess, I would say that the hiring companies are having problems for one reason: They want programming experience in GIS but are not willing to pay for such a specialized field of Software Engineering. I work for a package delivery company and we have a suite of routing software that we sell to other delivery companies. I am an independent and have been working on this routing software for 4+ years now. That is a long time for any independent to stay on one project! But here is the kicker. My colleagues who wrote the original mapping code (drawing, path finding, geocoding, etc.) have been with the company for 14+ years! That is unheard of in the Software Engineering dicipline. So you have to ask yourself, "Why?" The answer goes back to my one reason above. As full time employees of the company, these GIS Software Engineers command a salary in the high 80's to mid 90's NOT including a very generous yearly bonus which has, in the past, been equivalent to 6 months salary (though, admittedly, those days are gone and 2 or 3 months is the norm now). Cash compensation is well over 6 figures. So the companies that are having a hard time finding knowledgeable GIS Software Engineers need to realize that they can't look at standard salary surveys. They must admit that GIS programming is very unique and pony up some dough.
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Try finding some stuff on ESRI development sites and then tell me if you are really committed. I often end up working with little to no documentation and comment less code examples. The company has always been terrible with this. Also, there is little to none community of developers in this area. You sure you wanna try:laugh:
_____________________________________________________________________ Our developers never release code. Rather, it tends to escape, pillaging the countryside all around. The Enlightenment Project (paraphrased comment) Visit Me at GISDevCafe
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Aaron VanWieren wrote:
You from NM, what part?
The white-sandy part.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
I graduated from UNM in 2002. Absolutely love it there.:)
_____________________________________________________________________ Our developers never release code. Rather, it tends to escape, pillaging the countryside all around. The Enlightenment Project (paraphrased comment) Visit Me at GISDevCafe
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Aaron VanWieren wrote:
The industry still regards itself within the context of social science and not a technological specialty.
Thus I do spatially aware real-time 3D, it's just gaming+GIS, but it sounds more technical. :cool:
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
That sounds really cool.
_____________________________________________________________________ Our developers never release code. Rather, it tends to escape, pillaging the countryside all around. The Enlightenment Project (paraphrased comment) Visit Me at GISDevCafe
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Yes, this trend also occurs in China as well, but advanced GIS specialist are the most welcome people.
A guy from Shanghai working on WebGIS
Are you using ESRI products, or is there a different preference in China?
_____________________________________________________________________ Our developers never release code. Rather, it tends to escape, pillaging the countryside all around. The Enlightenment Project (paraphrased comment) Visit Me at GISDevCafe
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If I had to guess, I would say that the hiring companies are having problems for one reason: They want programming experience in GIS but are not willing to pay for such a specialized field of Software Engineering. I work for a package delivery company and we have a suite of routing software that we sell to other delivery companies. I am an independent and have been working on this routing software for 4+ years now. That is a long time for any independent to stay on one project! But here is the kicker. My colleagues who wrote the original mapping code (drawing, path finding, geocoding, etc.) have been with the company for 14+ years! That is unheard of in the Software Engineering dicipline. So you have to ask yourself, "Why?" The answer goes back to my one reason above. As full time employees of the company, these GIS Software Engineers command a salary in the high 80's to mid 90's NOT including a very generous yearly bonus which has, in the past, been equivalent to 6 months salary (though, admittedly, those days are gone and 2 or 3 months is the norm now). Cash compensation is well over 6 figures. So the companies that are having a hard time finding knowledgeable GIS Software Engineers need to realize that they can't look at standard salary surveys. They must admit that GIS programming is very unique and pony up some dough.
Sigh... sounds like this one company has a relatively long term view of things. Give me an application to develop, and I don't need tools, libraries or even a computer. Those can be had at any time.... what I need is domain knowledge of the problem being solved. My first thought is, "Come on, how special is it?" Then I think about a conversation I had one day with a pure s/w developer - not a code monkey by any means... I had to give him the algorithm for an equation of a line... Frankly, this entire conversation intrigues me.. the GIS stuff sounds like fun...
Charlie Gilley Will program for food... Whoever said children were cheaper by the dozen... lied. Yeah, whatever....
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If I had to guess, I would say that the hiring companies are having problems for one reason: They want programming experience in GIS but are not willing to pay for such a specialized field of Software Engineering. I work for a package delivery company and we have a suite of routing software that we sell to other delivery companies. I am an independent and have been working on this routing software for 4+ years now. That is a long time for any independent to stay on one project! But here is the kicker. My colleagues who wrote the original mapping code (drawing, path finding, geocoding, etc.) have been with the company for 14+ years! That is unheard of in the Software Engineering dicipline. So you have to ask yourself, "Why?" The answer goes back to my one reason above. As full time employees of the company, these GIS Software Engineers command a salary in the high 80's to mid 90's NOT including a very generous yearly bonus which has, in the past, been equivalent to 6 months salary (though, admittedly, those days are gone and 2 or 3 months is the norm now). Cash compensation is well over 6 figures. So the companies that are having a hard time finding knowledgeable GIS Software Engineers need to realize that they can't look at standard salary surveys. They must admit that GIS programming is very unique and pony up some dough.
The company I work for does pay very competitively to the rates you mentioned but we still have issues with finding qualified personnel.
_____________________________________________________________________ Our developers never release code. Rather, it tends to escape, pillaging the countryside all around. The Enlightenment Project (paraphrased comment) Visit Me at GISDevCafe
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Sounds likey opportunity to me :)
Charlie Gilley Will program for food... Whoever said children were cheaper by the dozen... lied. Yeah, whatever....
The funnest thing is going to GIS conferences where you are a unique commodity. Your ego gets boosted every minute as the rarity of the position washes over you as people admit their amazement to your position and abilities. You almost feel like a desired deity being asked to come and bless a temple. Not that I have a large ego or anything.
_____________________________________________________________________ Our developers never release code. Rather, it tends to escape, pillaging the countryside all around. The Enlightenment Project (paraphrased comment) Visit Me at GISDevCafe
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I just got back from a developer summit for Geographic Information Systems(GIS) hosted last week and the thing that struck me the hardest was the number of potential jobs currently open world wide in GIS software engineering and development. At the closing session the president of the company indicated they were currently looking for roughly 500 people to hire, as well others I met indicated the issues they were having filling positions in Australia, Norway... everywhere. I am just amazed at how hard it is hiring for this specialty market. My company has had a position open for months now and still have not filled it. I know in some ways it is learning another API and company specific terminology, but on the other hand, the field requires vast expertise in thinking spatially and understanding theoretical geography. I am just curious what people think of the current observed desire for hiring GIS Developers and software engineers and opinions on this trend. -- modified at 17:07 Wednesday 28th March, 2007
_____________________________________________________________________ Our developers never release code. Rather, it tends to escape, pillaging the countryside all around. The Enlightenment Project (paraphrased comment) Visit Me at GISDevCafe
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I'm curious, did you get any feel for how many people at the developer summit were programmers, and how many were geofolk who just code because they have to?
I would say that the bulk of the people were the latter, code because they have to. I did not feel there were that many GIS Software engineers there. The sessions also pretty much reflect this, as they were mainly surface level. This is my biggest complaint with the field is that so many people do not understand the process and pick up bits and pieces using VB that allot of the code samples and discussions are purely junk. But hey, I got to hang out in palm springs for a week!!
_____________________________________________________________________ Our developers never release code. Rather, it tends to escape, pillaging the countryside all around. The Enlightenment Project (paraphrased comment) Visit Me at GISDevCafe
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I would say that the bulk of the people were the latter, code because they have to. I did not feel there were that many GIS Software engineers there. The sessions also pretty much reflect this, as they were mainly surface level. This is my biggest complaint with the field is that so many people do not understand the process and pick up bits and pieces using VB that allot of the code samples and discussions are purely junk. But hey, I got to hang out in palm springs for a week!!
_____________________________________________________________________ Our developers never release code. Rather, it tends to escape, pillaging the countryside all around. The Enlightenment Project (paraphrased comment) Visit Me at GISDevCafe
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Aaron VanWieren wrote:
the field requires vast expertise in thinking spatially and understanding theoretical geography
Balderdash. Most programming requires only a scant understanding of the alleged specialized field. Generally, you only need to hire a few, perhaps even one, genuine super expert. Have that person, or group, write the specialized code and then have application development experts like me write the application around that code.
Anyone who thinks he has a better idea of what's good for people than people do is a swine. - P.J. O'Rourke
Joe Woodbury wrote:
Balderdash. Most programming requires only a scant understanding of the alleged specialized field.
I agree. I’ve been working at a GIS company for over a year and I had no Geo experience when I got here. We have two really good Geo-programming experts. Those two dictate the product architecture. The rest are good programmers with the tools to write solid and reliable code. The two give general guidance at how to optimize code. It has worked well. If you require Geo type experience in you interview candidates, I wish you luck! :-D NavComp[^]
Programmer Glenn Earl Graham Austin, TX
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I just got back from a developer summit for Geographic Information Systems(GIS) hosted last week and the thing that struck me the hardest was the number of potential jobs currently open world wide in GIS software engineering and development. At the closing session the president of the company indicated they were currently looking for roughly 500 people to hire, as well others I met indicated the issues they were having filling positions in Australia, Norway... everywhere. I am just amazed at how hard it is hiring for this specialty market. My company has had a position open for months now and still have not filled it. I know in some ways it is learning another API and company specific terminology, but on the other hand, the field requires vast expertise in thinking spatially and understanding theoretical geography. I am just curious what people think of the current observed desire for hiring GIS Developers and software engineers and opinions on this trend. -- modified at 17:07 Wednesday 28th March, 2007
_____________________________________________________________________ Our developers never release code. Rather, it tends to escape, pillaging the countryside all around. The Enlightenment Project (paraphrased comment) Visit Me at GISDevCafe
The GIS job market is an odd one. I work for a land resource agency and I have worked alongside GIS folks for ... well a long time. I developed the original Canada Yellow Pages mapping website as a contractor, so I have some sort of pedigree! As a seasoned hack, my first response is that "it's just data!" This is true, although it bears remembering that GIS data is continuous data represented in a discrete world (i.e. it's a lie!) Any real-time programmer should get it. The next issue is that ESRI (how can I put this without being sued?) software has a somewhat poor reputation. Documentation may be inaccurate and don't get me started on bugs (try to do interop in .NET and you can see that their copy constructors are buggy very quickly!) ESRI are often called the Microsoft of GIS, but I have to laugh when I see people complain about MS; if only ESRI WERE the MS of GIS! Even other vendors in the marketplace are likely to drive programmers crazy with restrictive and weird licensing rules. Lastly, you have to be aware of the job market competition. Most GIS programmers are (still) geography majors that are self-taught in terms of programming. A lot of Chinese are real developers that have had extra tuition in GIS, so we're seeing a change. Waterloo University is moving in that direction too in its courses. This history sets an expectation in the market when advertising GIS jobs, too often the expected skill level is low - so low salaries. Geography majors generally don't get paid as much as developers do. Frequently these jobs are looking for a jack-of-all-trades, covering DBA and infrastructure too. There are exceptions, so be careful when applying! ... and be VERY twitchy when anyone says ESRI! Feel free to email me for any specifics, I work with some top-notch GIS folks. plenoir _AT_ grandriver _DOT_ ca
Life is like a s**t sandwich; the more bread you have, the less s**t you eat.
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I just got back from a developer summit for Geographic Information Systems(GIS) hosted last week and the thing that struck me the hardest was the number of potential jobs currently open world wide in GIS software engineering and development. At the closing session the president of the company indicated they were currently looking for roughly 500 people to hire, as well others I met indicated the issues they were having filling positions in Australia, Norway... everywhere. I am just amazed at how hard it is hiring for this specialty market. My company has had a position open for months now and still have not filled it. I know in some ways it is learning another API and company specific terminology, but on the other hand, the field requires vast expertise in thinking spatially and understanding theoretical geography. I am just curious what people think of the current observed desire for hiring GIS Developers and software engineers and opinions on this trend. -- modified at 17:07 Wednesday 28th March, 2007
_____________________________________________________________________ Our developers never release code. Rather, it tends to escape, pillaging the countryside all around. The Enlightenment Project (paraphrased comment) Visit Me at GISDevCafe
What is really surprising is the total number of technical jobs that will go unfilled this year (Bureau of labor and statistics is anticipating 40%) What will companies do to fill this gap - cut features or work us longer hours ?
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Hi Aaron, I think the market of jobs is great everywhere but the people available are very low, and will stay low since the industry only want's to capitalize on the market demands without affordable educational options and long term job security.
With friendly greetings,:) Eric Goedhart Interbritt
You echo my post What is really surprising is the total number of technical jobs that will go unfilled this year (Bureau of labor and statistics is anticipating 40%) What will companies do to fill this gap - cut features or work us longer hours ?
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The GIS job market is an odd one. I work for a land resource agency and I have worked alongside GIS folks for ... well a long time. I developed the original Canada Yellow Pages mapping website as a contractor, so I have some sort of pedigree! As a seasoned hack, my first response is that "it's just data!" This is true, although it bears remembering that GIS data is continuous data represented in a discrete world (i.e. it's a lie!) Any real-time programmer should get it. The next issue is that ESRI (how can I put this without being sued?) software has a somewhat poor reputation. Documentation may be inaccurate and don't get me started on bugs (try to do interop in .NET and you can see that their copy constructors are buggy very quickly!) ESRI are often called the Microsoft of GIS, but I have to laugh when I see people complain about MS; if only ESRI WERE the MS of GIS! Even other vendors in the marketplace are likely to drive programmers crazy with restrictive and weird licensing rules. Lastly, you have to be aware of the job market competition. Most GIS programmers are (still) geography majors that are self-taught in terms of programming. A lot of Chinese are real developers that have had extra tuition in GIS, so we're seeing a change. Waterloo University is moving in that direction too in its courses. This history sets an expectation in the market when advertising GIS jobs, too often the expected skill level is low - so low salaries. Geography majors generally don't get paid as much as developers do. Frequently these jobs are looking for a jack-of-all-trades, covering DBA and infrastructure too. There are exceptions, so be careful when applying! ... and be VERY twitchy when anyone says ESRI! Feel free to email me for any specifics, I work with some top-notch GIS folks. plenoir _AT_ grandriver _DOT_ ca
Life is like a s**t sandwich; the more bread you have, the less s**t you eat.
PhilLenoir wrote:
The next issue is that ESRI (how can I put this without being sued?) software has a somewhat poor reputation. Documentation may be inaccurate and don't get me started on bugs (try to do interop in .NET and you can see that their copy constructors are buggy very quickly!) ESRI are often called the Microsoft of GIS, but I have to laugh when I see people complain about MS; if only ESRI WERE the MS of GIS!
I think this is relational to the industry and size of ESRI. There are other GIS companies but none of them hold the same weight in the market as ESRI. So it can be compared to MS of GIS as it controls its market. I agree that the code and documentation is terrible. But, there is little to none other comparable software products currently on the market. So, you learn to live with the spectre that is ESRI!!
PhilLenoir wrote:
Even other vendors in the marketplace are likely to drive programmers crazy with restrictive and weird licensing rules.
I hate ESRI's licensing. I know whole departments in companies that are dedicated to nothing but handling ESRI licensing. ArcGIS Server is one of the worst licensing models I have ever seen.
PhilLenoir wrote:
Lastly, you have to be aware of the job market competition. Most GIS programmers are (still) geography majors that are self-taught in terms of programming. A lot of Chinese are real developers that have had extra tuition in GIS, so we're seeing a change. Waterloo University is moving in that direction too in its courses. This history sets an expectation in the market when advertising GIS jobs, too often the expected skill level is low - so low salaries. Geography majors generally don't get paid as much as developers do. Frequently these jobs are looking for a jack-of-all-trades, covering DBA and infrastructure too.
I agree whole heartedly with this assessment.
PhilLenoir wrote:
Feel free to email me for any specifics, I work with some top-notch GIS folks. plenoir _AT_ grandriver _DOT_ ca
If I had the email address I am sure I would.:) Thanks for the interesting comments and great post. I think you have hit the nail on the head and i have seen the similar trends and patterns.
_____________________________________________________________________ Our developers never
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What is really surprising is the total number of technical jobs that will go unfilled this year (Bureau of labor and statistics is anticipating 40%) What will companies do to fill this gap - cut features or work us longer hours ?
I fear the latter, I am already pulling over 60 hr work weeks.:-D
_____________________________________________________________________ Our developers never release code. Rather, it tends to escape, pillaging the countryside all around. The Enlightenment Project (paraphrased comment) Visit Me at GISDevCafe
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PhilLenoir wrote:
The next issue is that ESRI (how can I put this without being sued?) software has a somewhat poor reputation. Documentation may be inaccurate and don't get me started on bugs (try to do interop in .NET and you can see that their copy constructors are buggy very quickly!) ESRI are often called the Microsoft of GIS, but I have to laugh when I see people complain about MS; if only ESRI WERE the MS of GIS!
I think this is relational to the industry and size of ESRI. There are other GIS companies but none of them hold the same weight in the market as ESRI. So it can be compared to MS of GIS as it controls its market. I agree that the code and documentation is terrible. But, there is little to none other comparable software products currently on the market. So, you learn to live with the spectre that is ESRI!!
PhilLenoir wrote:
Even other vendors in the marketplace are likely to drive programmers crazy with restrictive and weird licensing rules.
I hate ESRI's licensing. I know whole departments in companies that are dedicated to nothing but handling ESRI licensing. ArcGIS Server is one of the worst licensing models I have ever seen.
PhilLenoir wrote:
Lastly, you have to be aware of the job market competition. Most GIS programmers are (still) geography majors that are self-taught in terms of programming. A lot of Chinese are real developers that have had extra tuition in GIS, so we're seeing a change. Waterloo University is moving in that direction too in its courses. This history sets an expectation in the market when advertising GIS jobs, too often the expected skill level is low - so low salaries. Geography majors generally don't get paid as much as developers do. Frequently these jobs are looking for a jack-of-all-trades, covering DBA and infrastructure too.
I agree whole heartedly with this assessment.
PhilLenoir wrote:
Feel free to email me for any specifics, I work with some top-notch GIS folks. plenoir _AT_ grandriver _DOT_ ca
If I had the email address I am sure I would.:) Thanks for the interesting comments and great post. I think you have hit the nail on the head and i have seen the similar trends and patterns.
_____________________________________________________________________ Our developers never
Aaron VanWieren wrote:
PhilLenoir wrote: Feel free to email me for any specifics, I work with some top-notch GIS folks. plenoir _AT_ grandriver _DOT_ ca If I had the email address I am sure I would.
I hope you're kidding. He spelled out his email address. Replace _AT_ with @ and _DOT_ with . and you're there. If you were joking, then ignore this pedantic reply. :)
This statement was never false.
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Sigh... sounds like this one company has a relatively long term view of things. Give me an application to develop, and I don't need tools, libraries or even a computer. Those can be had at any time.... what I need is domain knowledge of the problem being solved. My first thought is, "Come on, how special is it?" Then I think about a conversation I had one day with a pure s/w developer - not a code monkey by any means... I had to give him the algorithm for an equation of a line... Frankly, this entire conversation intrigues me.. the GIS stuff sounds like fun...
Charlie Gilley Will program for food... Whoever said children were cheaper by the dozen... lied. Yeah, whatever....
It is a blast. It all depends on how neck deep the company is in geography. Some software uses a little GIS to support other tasks while others use the whole package of geographic theory. I tend to work in an environment where our software engineers talk shop in geography theory and software engineering. ON any given day we will be discussing the comparisons and procedures for comparing spatially different objects and more importantly how to convey the process and results to the customers or working through issues involving dynamic segmentation. I honestly think that us in GIS app dev speak two languages: geography and GIS and software engineering. It is strange to hear us talk as we have so much terminology related to solving spatial problems as well as solving spatial problems through code and alogorithms and discussing design patterns, architecture and code development. It really is dizzying sometimes to step back and just reprocess the conversations we have. I know allot of markets have specialty lingo, but this is extremely deep and intertwined into its own sub set of development language at times that it is exhausting. My 2cents.
_____________________________________________________________________ Our developers never release code. Rather, it tends to escape, pillaging the countryside all around. The Enlightenment Project (paraphrased comment) Visit Me at GISDevCafe