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  • M MoustafaS

    dnh wrote:

    1 <= ln(x) + 1/x

    That doesn't mean anything, you must prove the whole side : (x-1)/x <= ln x


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    DavidNohejl
    wrote on last edited by
    #6

    They are equivalent. :confused:


    "Throughout human history, we have been dependent on machines to survive. Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony. " - Morpheus "Real men use mspaint for writing code and notepad for designing graphics." - Anna-Jayne Metcalfe

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    • D DavidNohejl

      ok, If I do this (and I can because x>=1): (x-1)/x <= ln(x) 1-(1/x) <= ln(x) 1 <= ln(x) + 1/x for x=1 both sides are equal. Now, since ln(x) is raising function*, and 1/x >0 for all x>1, 1 < ln(x) + 1/x obviously. *in case it's called differently, I mean that ln(x) > ln(y) <=> x > y


      "Throughout human history, we have been dependent on machines to survive. Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony. " - Morpheus "Real men use mspaint for writing code and notepad for designing graphics." - Anna-Jayne Metcalfe

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      MoustafaS
      wrote on last edited by
      #7

      [Hint] Have you tried the graphical solution ?;)


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      • D DavidNohejl

        They are equivalent. :confused:


        "Throughout human history, we have been dependent on machines to survive. Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony. " - Morpheus "Real men use mspaint for writing code and notepad for designing graphics." - Anna-Jayne Metcalfe

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        MoustafaS
        wrote on last edited by
        #8

        For 1<= x <= e, exists the problem, you must prove it in this range.


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        • M MoustafaS

          For 1<= x <= e, exists the problem, you must prove it in this range.


          About : Islam
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          DavidNohejl
          wrote on last edited by
          #9

          I see my mistake, ln(1)!=1 :(( No wait I don't...


          "Throughout human history, we have been dependent on machines to survive. Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony. " - Morpheus "Real men use mspaint for writing code and notepad for designing graphics." - Anna-Jayne Metcalfe

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          • D DavidNohejl

            I see my mistake, ln(1)!=1 :(( No wait I don't...


            "Throughout human history, we have been dependent on machines to survive. Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony. " - Morpheus "Real men use mspaint for writing code and notepad for designing graphics." - Anna-Jayne Metcalfe

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            MoustafaS
            wrote on last edited by
            #10

            ln(1)=0 Also if you've drawn the graph of the two funtions with each other, you will solve it for well.


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            • M MoustafaS

              ln(1)=0 Also if you've drawn the graph of the two funtions with each other, you will solve it for well.


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              DavidNohejl
              wrote on last edited by
              #11

              Picture is not proof.


              "Throughout human history, we have been dependent on machines to survive. Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony. " - Morpheus "Real men use mspaint for writing code and notepad for designing graphics." - Anna-Jayne Metcalfe

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              • M MoustafaS

                For 1<= x <= e, exists the problem, you must prove it in this range.


                About : Islam
                About : Me

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                DavidNohejl
                wrote on last edited by
                #12

                hmm, I'll still use 1<=ln(x)+1/x for x in (1,e), function ln(x) + 1/x is raising as well, because it's derivation, (ln(x)+1/x)' = (1/x -1/(x^2)) = (x-1)/(x^2) > 0 for x in (1,e).


                "Throughout human history, we have been dependent on machines to survive. Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony. " - Morpheus "Real men use mspaint for writing code and notepad for designing graphics." - Anna-Jayne Metcalfe

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                • D DavidNohejl

                  hmm, I'll still use 1<=ln(x)+1/x for x in (1,e), function ln(x) + 1/x is raising as well, because it's derivation, (ln(x)+1/x)' = (1/x -1/(x^2)) = (x-1)/(x^2) > 0 for x in (1,e).


                  "Throughout human history, we have been dependent on machines to survive. Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony. " - Morpheus "Real men use mspaint for writing code and notepad for designing graphics." - Anna-Jayne Metcalfe

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                  MoustafaS
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #13

                  dnh wrote:

                  I'll still use 1<=ln(x)+1/x

                  You use it as if it's true, I want you to prove it, not use it to prove itself.


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                  • M MoustafaS

                    dnh wrote:

                    I'll still use 1<=ln(x)+1/x

                    You use it as if it's true, I want you to prove it, not use it to prove itself.


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                    DavidNohejl
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #14

                    No I don't!


                    "Throughout human history, we have been dependent on machines to survive. Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony. " - Morpheus "Real men use mspaint for writing code and notepad for designing graphics." - Anna-Jayne Metcalfe

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                    • M MoustafaS

                      dnh wrote:

                      I'll still use 1<=ln(x)+1/x

                      You use it as if it's true, I want you to prove it, not use it to prove itself.


                      About : Islam
                      About : Me

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                      DavidNohejl
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #15

                      1<=ln(x)+1/x is equivalent to (x-1)/x <= ln x. I am proving 1<=ln(x)+1/x... And my proof is that for x = 1, ln(x) + 1/x = 1. for x>1, ln(x) + 1/x > 1 because it's raising function, as I proved by showing it's derivation is > 0 on interval (1,e). for x>e, I proved it before.


                      "Throughout human history, we have been dependent on machines to survive. Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony. " - Morpheus "Real men use mspaint for writing code and notepad for designing graphics." - Anna-Jayne Metcalfe

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                      • M MoustafaS

                        This is a pure math question, but its quite good.

                        Prove that for all x>=1

                        (x-1)/x <= ln x


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                        Graham Shanks
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #16

                        Easy - use the following series expansion[^] ln = (x-1)/x + 1/2 ((x-1)/x)^2 + 1/3 ((x-1)/x)^3 + ... which is valid for x > 1/2 when x > 1 the second and subsequent terms are positive. For x = 0 all terms are zero QED

                        Graham My signature is not black, just a very, very dark blue

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                        • G Graham Shanks

                          Easy - use the following series expansion[^] ln = (x-1)/x + 1/2 ((x-1)/x)^2 + 1/3 ((x-1)/x)^3 + ... which is valid for x > 1/2 when x > 1 the second and subsequent terms are positive. For x = 0 all terms are zero QED

                          Graham My signature is not black, just a very, very dark blue

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                          MoustafaS
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #17

                          Very very complete and accurate proof.;)


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                          • G Graham Shanks

                            Easy - use the following series expansion[^] ln = (x-1)/x + 1/2 ((x-1)/x)^2 + 1/3 ((x-1)/x)^3 + ... which is valid for x > 1/2 when x > 1 the second and subsequent terms are positive. For x = 0 all terms are zero QED

                            Graham My signature is not black, just a very, very dark blue

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                            Ravi Bhavnani
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #18

                            You brought back some excruciatingly painful memories. :) /ravi

                            This is your brain on Celcius Home | Music | Articles | Freeware | Trips ravib(at)ravib(dot)com

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                            • G Graham Shanks

                              Easy - use the following series expansion[^] ln = (x-1)/x + 1/2 ((x-1)/x)^2 + 1/3 ((x-1)/x)^3 + ... which is valid for x > 1/2 when x > 1 the second and subsequent terms are positive. For x = 0 all terms are zero QED

                              Graham My signature is not black, just a very, very dark blue

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                              MoustafaS
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #19

                              Graham Shanks wrote:

                              when x > 1 the second and subsequent terms are positive.

                              Right

                              Graham Shanks wrote:

                              For x = 0 all terms are zero

                              For x = 1, not 0, because x cannot be zero.


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                              • M MoustafaS

                                dnh wrote:

                                1 <= ln(x) + 1/x

                                That doesn't mean anything, you must prove the whole side : (x-1)/x <= ln x


                                About : Islam
                                About : Me

                                J Offline
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                                Jorgen Sigvardsson
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #20

                                Yes it does.

                                -- Raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

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                                • D DavidNohejl

                                  1<=ln(x)+1/x is equivalent to (x-1)/x <= ln x. I am proving 1<=ln(x)+1/x... And my proof is that for x = 1, ln(x) + 1/x = 1. for x>1, ln(x) + 1/x > 1 because it's raising function, as I proved by showing it's derivation is > 0 on interval (1,e). for x>e, I proved it before.


                                  "Throughout human history, we have been dependent on machines to survive. Fate, it seems, is not without a sense of irony. " - Morpheus "Real men use mspaint for writing code and notepad for designing graphics." - Anna-Jayne Metcalfe

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                                  Jorgen Sigvardsson
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #21

                                  You are correct. I don't know what he's been smoking. :confused:

                                  -- Raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

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                                  • M MoustafaS

                                    This is a pure math question, but its quite good.

                                    Prove that for all x>=1

                                    (x-1)/x <= ln x


                                    About : Islam
                                    About : Me

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                                    Chris Maunder
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #22

                                    Expand as a power series and compare terms.

                                    cheers, Chris Maunder

                                    CodeProject.com : C++ MVP

                                    M J 2 Replies Last reply
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                                    • C Chris Maunder

                                      Expand as a power series and compare terms.

                                      cheers, Chris Maunder

                                      CodeProject.com : C++ MVP

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                                      MoustafaS
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #23

                                      Perfect, nice.


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                                      • C Chris Maunder

                                        Expand as a power series and compare terms.

                                        cheers, Chris Maunder

                                        CodeProject.com : C++ MVP

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                                        Jorgen Sigvardsson
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #24

                                        Why, when it is far simpler to do what dnh did? He basically said that:

                                        (x-1)/x <= ln x is equivalent to 1<=ln(x)+1/x

                                        Since we know the properties of ln and ^-1, it's easy to show (by induction) that for all x >= 1, that ln(x) + 1/x >= 1. Series are creepy. :~

                                        -- Raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

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                                        • J Jorgen Sigvardsson

                                          Why, when it is far simpler to do what dnh did? He basically said that:

                                          (x-1)/x <= ln x is equivalent to 1<=ln(x)+1/x

                                          Since we know the properties of ln and ^-1, it's easy to show (by induction) that for all x >= 1, that ln(x) + 1/x >= 1. Series are creepy. :~

                                          -- Raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

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                                          Graham Shanks
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #25

                                          Can't use mathematical induction. That only works on the natural numbers (one of the steps is to prove that if it works on x then it works for x+1). The real numbers are not countable and therefore induction will not work. New POTD: prove that the real numbers are uncountable POTD #2: prove that the rational numbers are countable POTD #3: prove that there are exactly the same number of rational numbers as there are positive integers

                                          Graham My signature is not black, just a very, very dark blue

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