Pointy-haird bosses
-
The Grand Negus wrote:
Well, does it?
Yes! For certain types of applications it does e.g. database apps, simple forms app, web apps. This compared to the same development work in C++/MFC/ISAPI.
The Grand Negus wrote:
If so, how much faster?
Anywhere between 0-300%. Why? IDE support, care free programming for memory allocations (no need to worry about memory allocations and allocating responsibility to classes for managing memory), Reflection and dynamic code generation. These 4 immediately come to mind.
I 110% agree with everything you said except for this:
Rama Krishna Vavilala wrote:
no need to worry about memory allocations and allocating responsibility to classes for managing memory)
Memory and resource allocation isn't that difficult after some real experience writing code :) Heck, I've used tons of macros and other simple tools that became part of the build process to check my work. Don't want to argue or anything like that, but it just seems that resource allocation is often the excuse for moving to a managed platform with out any real data showing why.
My Blog A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. - -Lazarus Long
-
MONO (and GTK.net if you need a not web UI).
-- You have to explain to them [VB coders] what you mean by "typed". their first response is likely to be something like, "Of course my code is typed. Do you think i magically project it onto the screen with the power of my mind?" --- John Simmons / outlaw programmer
I thought about that, but I don't have any experience with Mono, so that for the moment would add time I don't have on a budget that is already too small.
Cheers, Patrick
-
I 110% agree with everything you said except for this:
Rama Krishna Vavilala wrote:
no need to worry about memory allocations and allocating responsibility to classes for managing memory)
Memory and resource allocation isn't that difficult after some real experience writing code :) Heck, I've used tons of macros and other simple tools that became part of the build process to check my work. Don't want to argue or anything like that, but it just seems that resource allocation is often the excuse for moving to a managed platform with out any real data showing why.
My Blog A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. - -Lazarus Long
Chris Austin wrote:
Memory and resource allocation isn't that difficult after some real experience writing code
Well it certainly ain't as easy as in .NET. The most important thing is circular references. Ensuring object lifetimes are properly maintained in such situations is generally quite tricky. Strings are another pain memory management wise (esp. if you cannot use the string wrapper classes).
-
Oh no, the dreaded car analogy! Not here too! :doh:
Cheers, Patrick
-
The Grand Negus wrote:
Well, does it?
Yes it does.
The Grand Negus wrote:
If so, how much faster?
2-5 times faster than developing in c++, vb 6.0, foxpro, dbase, pascal, classic asp, java. Its relative to the software you want to compare with. Just drag and drop couple of buttons, textboxes, labels, listview and write some events and you have a form ready, imagine this same thing in c++ or java. You will have to write at least 5-6 times the code to draw these forms, buttons, listview and other stuff.
The Grand Negus wrote:
If not, what good is it?
(4 million members - you) think its good :).
-
Where do they come from?:rolleyes: I gave a briefing to my new boss and some staff about what .NET is all about. His response was "I don't understand. I thought .NET would allow you to write applications faster. How can it take six months to write something? Did we make a mistake going this route?" His view of .NET prior to my presentation was that .NET was just another reusable library, plug it in and you have an application.
only two letters away from being an asset
Mark Nischalke wrote:
"I don't understand. I thought .NET would allow you to write applications faster.
Thats pretty much how it's being marketed. I understand why your boss is worried about moving to a new platform, esp if you are looking at a rewrite of an existing code base. If thats the case, you can consider building new features with the managed code and making them available to your current platform via COM. I've had wonderful success doing just that, as it seemed like it would take way too many hours to do a feature complete rewrite of the product.
My Blog A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. - -Lazarus Long
-
Where do they come from?:rolleyes: I gave a briefing to my new boss and some staff about what .NET is all about. His response was "I don't understand. I thought .NET would allow you to write applications faster. How can it take six months to write something? Did we make a mistake going this route?" His view of .NET prior to my presentation was that .NET was just another reusable library, plug it in and you have an application.
only two letters away from being an asset
Mark Nischalke wrote:
His view of .NET prior to my presentation was that .NET was just another reusable library, plug it in and you have an application.
Isn't that the marketing pitch? :~
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopes -
I thought about that, but I don't have any experience with Mono, so that for the moment would add time I don't have on a budget that is already too small.
Cheers, Patrick
Depending on what you're doing, you may be able to simply run the compiled .NET assemblies as-is on Mono. I was surprised at how many things ran on Mono under Linux.
--Justin Microsoft MVP, C#
C# / Web / VG.net / MyXaml expert currently looking for (telecommute) contract work![^]
-
The Grand Negus wrote:
Compared to however they were doing things before the .NET era.
And how are they going to compare it? Are they going to develop exactly the same software they developed before .NET? If they are, do they have exactly the same people, with exactly same skill levels and motivation?
The Grand Negus wrote:
And measured in various ways - training costs (time and materials), development costs (time and materials), number of bugs, failures, etc.
Yep, these "various ways" are called software metrics[^] and reliable software metrics simply don't exist today.
The Grand Negus wrote:
Is your new car...
Sorry, no parallels between cars and software development make any meaning in real life.
-
Chris Austin wrote:
Memory and resource allocation isn't that difficult after some real experience writing code
Well it certainly ain't as easy as in .NET. The most important thing is circular references. Ensuring object lifetimes are properly maintained in such situations is generally quite tricky. Strings are another pain memory management wise (esp. if you cannot use the string wrapper classes).
Rama Krishna Vavilala wrote:
Well it certainly ain't as easy as in .NET. The most important thing is circular references. Ensuring object lifetimes are properly maintained in such situations is generally quite tricky.
If you know the scope in which your object lives it is really trivial, and in most cases you know it. Actually, I find non-memory resource management in C# or Java much trickier than memory management with C++.
-
The Grand Negus wrote:
Shouldn't Mark have been able to say to his boss that the six months in question would have been twelve without .NET?
You are missing the point, as usual. It's not that the boss felt it was reasonable to expect using .NET to cut development time in relation to previous tools. His expectation was that regardless of the project or its complexity, .NET was a magic bullet and no project should take longer than six months to complete.
only two letters away from being an asset
-
Chris Austin wrote:
Memory and resource allocation isn't that difficult after some real experience writing code
Well it certainly ain't as easy as in .NET. The most important thing is circular references. Ensuring object lifetimes are properly maintained in such situations is generally quite tricky. Strings are another pain memory management wise (esp. if you cannot use the string wrapper classes).
Rama Krishna Vavilala wrote:
Well it certainly ain't as easy as in .NET.
No arguments from me there.
Rama Krishna Vavilala wrote:
The most important thing is circular references. Ensuring object lifetimes are properly maintained in such situations is generally quite tricky.
Yeah, thats why I try to avoid circular references in my code.
My Blog A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. - -Lazarus Long
-
The Grand Negus wrote:
Patrick, above, says he developed something using C# in three hours that would have taken three days using C++. If that happens to him often enough, he'll be able to state, categorically, that C# is faster than C++ by a factor of at least four.
Patrick says he developed something in C# that would take him days with C++. Now, I have developed "something" with C++ that simply cannot be developed with C# today (real-time and memory constraints) - does it mean that C++ is infinitely faster than C#?
-
Mark Nischalke wrote:
His view of .NET prior to my presentation was that .NET was just another reusable library, plug it in and you have an application.
Isn't that the marketing pitch? :~
Simply Elegant Designs JimmyRopes Designs
Think inside the box! ProActive Secure Systems
I'm on-line therefore I am. JimmyRopesAs a matter of fact yes, from IBM.
only two letters away from being an asset
-
The Grand Negus wrote:
I hope you can see why I refer to some of the people here as "schoolgirls".
I couldn't care less about what you think of me. :| You're reasonably intelligent. Why couldn't you Google your own question? Something so simple...
A guide to posting questions on CodeProject[^]
Dave Kreskowiak Microsoft MVP Visual Developer - Visual Basic
2006, 2007 -
The Grand Negus wrote:
Well, does it?
Yes it does.
The Grand Negus wrote:
If so, how much faster?
2-5 times faster than developing in c++, vb 6.0, foxpro, dbase, pascal, classic asp, java. Its relative to the software you want to compare with. Just drag and drop couple of buttons, textboxes, labels, listview and write some events and you have a form ready, imagine this same thing in c++ or java. You will have to write at least 5-6 times the code to draw these forms, buttons, listview and other stuff.
The Grand Negus wrote:
If not, what good is it?
(4 million members - you) think its good :).
Tarakeshwar Reddy wrote:
eady, imagine this same thing in c++ or java. You will have to write at least 5-6 times the code to draw these forms, buttons, listview and other stuff.
The fundamental flaw in your assumption is that the developer in the non .net language has never done it before. Most have and in most cases rather than start from scratch they will reuse what they have already built.
My Blog A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. - -Lazarus Long
-
Where do they come from?:rolleyes: I gave a briefing to my new boss and some staff about what .NET is all about. His response was "I don't understand. I thought .NET would allow you to write applications faster. How can it take six months to write something? Did we make a mistake going this route?" His view of .NET prior to my presentation was that .NET was just another reusable library, plug it in and you have an application.
only two letters away from being an asset
-
The Grand Negus wrote:
I'm interested, like the original poster's boss, in productivity
Well, as you were not here during the presentation and discussion, I would not persume to know what anyone meant. In fact, he statement had nothing to do with productivity and was of a more general nature.
only two letters away from being an asset
-
Yes. The Grand Negass seems to be standing on his again.
only two letters away from being an asset