Pointy-haird bosses
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The Grand Negus wrote:
Compared to however they were doing things before the .NET era.
And how are they going to compare it? Are they going to develop exactly the same software they developed before .NET? If they are, do they have exactly the same people, with exactly same skill levels and motivation?
The Grand Negus wrote:
And measured in various ways - training costs (time and materials), development costs (time and materials), number of bugs, failures, etc.
Yep, these "various ways" are called software metrics[^] and reliable software metrics simply don't exist today.
The Grand Negus wrote:
Is your new car...
Sorry, no parallels between cars and software development make any meaning in real life.
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Chris Austin wrote:
Memory and resource allocation isn't that difficult after some real experience writing code
Well it certainly ain't as easy as in .NET. The most important thing is circular references. Ensuring object lifetimes are properly maintained in such situations is generally quite tricky. Strings are another pain memory management wise (esp. if you cannot use the string wrapper classes).
Rama Krishna Vavilala wrote:
Well it certainly ain't as easy as in .NET. The most important thing is circular references. Ensuring object lifetimes are properly maintained in such situations is generally quite tricky.
If you know the scope in which your object lives it is really trivial, and in most cases you know it. Actually, I find non-memory resource management in C# or Java much trickier than memory management with C++.
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Chris Austin wrote:
Memory and resource allocation isn't that difficult after some real experience writing code
Well it certainly ain't as easy as in .NET. The most important thing is circular references. Ensuring object lifetimes are properly maintained in such situations is generally quite tricky. Strings are another pain memory management wise (esp. if you cannot use the string wrapper classes).
Rama Krishna Vavilala wrote:
Well it certainly ain't as easy as in .NET.
No arguments from me there.
Rama Krishna Vavilala wrote:
The most important thing is circular references. Ensuring object lifetimes are properly maintained in such situations is generally quite tricky.
Yeah, thats why I try to avoid circular references in my code.
My Blog A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. - -Lazarus Long
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The Grand Negus wrote:
Shouldn't Mark have been able to say to his boss that the six months in question would have been twelve without .NET?
You are missing the point, as usual. It's not that the boss felt it was reasonable to expect using .NET to cut development time in relation to previous tools. His expectation was that regardless of the project or its complexity, .NET was a magic bullet and no project should take longer than six months to complete.
only two letters away from being an asset
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The Grand Negus wrote:
Patrick, above, says he developed something using C# in three hours that would have taken three days using C++. If that happens to him often enough, he'll be able to state, categorically, that C# is faster than C++ by a factor of at least four.
Patrick says he developed something in C# that would take him days with C++. Now, I have developed "something" with C++ that simply cannot be developed with C# today (real-time and memory constraints) - does it mean that C++ is infinitely faster than C#?
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Mark Nischalke wrote:
His view of .NET prior to my presentation was that .NET was just another reusable library, plug it in and you have an application.
Isn't that the marketing pitch? :~
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only two letters away from being an asset
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The Grand Negus wrote:
I hope you can see why I refer to some of the people here as "schoolgirls".
I couldn't care less about what you think of me. :| You're reasonably intelligent. Why couldn't you Google your own question? Something so simple...
A guide to posting questions on CodeProject[^]
Dave Kreskowiak Microsoft MVP Visual Developer - Visual Basic
2006, 2007 -
The Grand Negus wrote:
Well, does it?
Yes it does.
The Grand Negus wrote:
If so, how much faster?
2-5 times faster than developing in c++, vb 6.0, foxpro, dbase, pascal, classic asp, java. Its relative to the software you want to compare with. Just drag and drop couple of buttons, textboxes, labels, listview and write some events and you have a form ready, imagine this same thing in c++ or java. You will have to write at least 5-6 times the code to draw these forms, buttons, listview and other stuff.
The Grand Negus wrote:
If not, what good is it?
(4 million members - you) think its good :).
Tarakeshwar Reddy wrote:
eady, imagine this same thing in c++ or java. You will have to write at least 5-6 times the code to draw these forms, buttons, listview and other stuff.
The fundamental flaw in your assumption is that the developer in the non .net language has never done it before. Most have and in most cases rather than start from scratch they will reuse what they have already built.
My Blog A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. - -Lazarus Long
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Where do they come from?:rolleyes: I gave a briefing to my new boss and some staff about what .NET is all about. His response was "I don't understand. I thought .NET would allow you to write applications faster. How can it take six months to write something? Did we make a mistake going this route?" His view of .NET prior to my presentation was that .NET was just another reusable library, plug it in and you have an application.
only two letters away from being an asset
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The Grand Negus wrote:
I'm interested, like the original poster's boss, in productivity
Well, as you were not here during the presentation and discussion, I would not persume to know what anyone meant. In fact, he statement had nothing to do with productivity and was of a more general nature.
only two letters away from being an asset
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Yes. The Grand Negass seems to be standing on his again.
only two letters away from being an asset
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I'd say it's significant. I've spent the last three days doing something in C++ that would have taken me minutes or hours in C# (unfortunately, this is meant to run on Linux so .NET is a non-starter).
Cheers, Patrick
Given that I'm ignorant of what you are working on, I still hazard a guess that it is the availability of libraries and third party products that makes the difference. Not the actual language. But for some that is just semantics. :)
Chris Meech I am Canadian. [heard in a local bar]
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pretend to be catbert, probably thing will go much better from then on :-D
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The Grand Negus wrote:
Does .NET make development faster?
More productive? Perhaps, assuming that you throw out all the Macros, development tools, and libs that I've used in the past for C/C++. I'd be interested in a real case study on this myself. I've read numerous things where people state that they are more productive with .net. I'd love to read a paper that quantifies their findings.
My Blog A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. - -Lazarus Long
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The Grand Negus wrote:
Well, does it? If so, how much faster? If not, what good is it?
No, IMO, it does not. I've had to implement, override or re-implement just about every critical element that .NET supposedly handles for me in order to get a stable and/or usable application. Communications, remoting, UI, USB, database (except for primitives like connection and DataTable classes), etc. The only thing I like about .NET is reflection, and that's not actually a .NET thing, but a language feature. Conversely, it doesn't take more time, IMO, than, say a C++ app. And I refuse to touch MFC anymore. In many ways, it was worse than .NET. So what good is it? It's a tool, but if I'd known then what I know now, I probably wouldn't have switched from C++ and I would have figured out a way (of which there are a variety of options) to implement reflection-like features in C++. Marc
People are just notoriously impossible. --DavidCrow
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People who say that they will refactor their code later to make it "good" don't understand refactoring, nor the art and craft of programming. -- Josh Smith -
The Grand Negus wrote:
schoolgirls".
Care to explain that remark?
__________________ Bob is my homeboy.
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The Grand Negus wrote:
Well, does it?
Yes it does.
The Grand Negus wrote:
If so, how much faster?
2-5 times faster than developing in c++, vb 6.0, foxpro, dbase, pascal, classic asp, java. Its relative to the software you want to compare with. Just drag and drop couple of buttons, textboxes, labels, listview and write some events and you have a form ready, imagine this same thing in c++ or java. You will have to write at least 5-6 times the code to draw these forms, buttons, listview and other stuff.
The Grand Negus wrote:
If not, what good is it?
(4 million members - you) think its good :).
Tarakeshwar Reddy wrote:
Just drag and drop couple of buttons, textboxes, labels, listview and write some events and you have a form ready
:wtf::omg: You make me want to switch sides in this argument X| But don't mind me continue on with your drag n drop it's all good mentality.
led mike