Why a career in computer programming sucks
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If you play your cards right and are willing to put in the crazy hours of learning and developing, then you can make a boat load as a programmer. I also don’t see where it’s true about all the outsourcing issues. The only people I hear complain about that are 50 year old men that are mad that they don’t program with punch cards anymore. Sr.computer web application developers are estimated to be one of the top 5 fields for pay and job demand within the next 5 years.
PEACE <3
Bobby T wrote:
they don’t program with punch cards anymore
What ? No punch cards anymore ? What are you using then ? Oh, I must have lived under a rock !
Constantly "Saving the day" should be taken as a sign of organizational dysfunction rather than individual skill - Ryan Roberts[^]
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So hard, so cruel, so true: The short version: 10 Things About Computer Programming You May Not Agree With[^] The long version: Why a career in computer programming sucks[^]
"Whatever your position is, as a Computer Science person, you are socially classified as a geek." Wrong. You're classified as a geek when you ARE a geek. Don't blame it on your profession! :)
"Posting a VB.NET question in the C++ forum will end in tears." Chris Maunder
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So hard, so cruel, so true: The short version: 10 Things About Computer Programming You May Not Agree With[^] The long version: Why a career in computer programming sucks[^]
Virtual Coder wrote:
The long version: Why a career in computer programming sucks
"But in computer programming, the old knowledge becomes completely obsolete and useless." I don't agree with that. Technologies come and go (though many tend to stick around longer than we might expect), but the underlying principles of sound software design have not changed. They may mature as we learn more and build upon the past, but rarely do they become completely obsolete and useless. So while it's vital to stay current with the latest technologies, it's more important to keep the bigger picture in focus: How can I apply what I've learned in the past to the present? What principles can I learn from the technology I'm using today that will help me tomorrow? Good ideas, practises, algorithms, etc., are independent of technology. Think of it as a kind of polymorphism. You have an idea you're trying to realize. The technology that implements that idea can vary or change, but the idea itself may remain sound for your entire lifetime.
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Virtual Coder wrote:
The long version: Why a career in computer programming sucks
"But in computer programming, the old knowledge becomes completely obsolete and useless." I don't agree with that. Technologies come and go (though many tend to stick around longer than we might expect), but the underlying principles of sound software design have not changed. They may mature as we learn more and build upon the past, but rarely do they become completely obsolete and useless. So while it's vital to stay current with the latest technologies, it's more important to keep the bigger picture in focus: How can I apply what I've learned in the past to the present? What principles can I learn from the technology I'm using today that will help me tomorrow? Good ideas, practises, algorithms, etc., are independent of technology. Think of it as a kind of polymorphism. You have an idea you're trying to realize. The technology that implements that idea can vary or change, but the idea itself may remain sound for your entire lifetime.
Leslie Sanford wrote:
I don't agree with that. Technologies come and go (though many tend to stick around longer than we might expect), but the underlying principles of sound software design have not changed. They may mature as we learn more and build upon the past, but rarely do they become completely obsolete and useless.
5
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So hard, so cruel, so true: The short version: 10 Things About Computer Programming You May Not Agree With[^] The long version: Why a career in computer programming sucks[^]
I read both blogs, and I immediately decided that:
- these blogs weren't talking about me
- the bloggers were probably talking about themselves
So all I can say is :zzz:
Best wishes, Hans
[CodeProject Forum Guidelines] [How To Ask A Question] [My Articles]
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Computer programming is a low prestige profession. Hardly. I get "oohs" and "aahs" amongst the people I hang out with. Well, I guess, what do you expect from farmers, teachers, and B&B owners. As you get older, your desire to completely relearn everything decreases, so you are likely to succumb to the temptation of staying with the familiar technology for too long. If I get to that point, shoot me. Whatever your position is, as a Computer Science person, you are socially classified as a geek. So? Label-shmabel. I really don't care. One's gotta make a name for oneself where one can! The computer programming industry within the United States is an industry with a shrinking number of jobs (because of outsourcing). Good! Take all that crappy programming jobs overseas! Computer programming and IT in general is now seen as the foreigner’s industry and not a proper profession for upwardly mobile white Americans. Good! See previous point. Oh, and the "upwardly mobile white American" is history anyways, regardless of career. Computer programmers face the need to move up to management or likely wind up as underemployed fifty-year-olds, only suitable for lower paying IT jobs. While I may feel the need to be an underemployed fifty year old, I don't feel the need to move up to management. Why it's called "moving up to management" is beyond me. Sounds like a major stepping off the cliff to me! Regardless, there's more to life than IT. This trend, in which people without computer programming experience manage computer programming projects, is a result of the low prestige of computer programming. As others said, I really don't care what you think of computer programming. I think it's cool. If you look forward to one day having your own private office, then computer programming sure isn’t the way to go. Dude. I work in my own private house. (Well, ok, mobile home). Beer anytime (if I drank the stuff), take a snooze, go for a bike ride, whatever. Computer programmers are cubicle employees, not considered important enough to be given nice workspaces. Dude. See previous comment. If you can’t get into a Top 14 law school or a top graduate business school, then public accounting probably provides a better career path than computer programming. Career path is one thing. Being happy with what I do in life is another. They don't have to be exclusive, but I'll tell you som
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I read both blogs, and I immediately decided that:
- these blogs weren't talking about me
- the bloggers were probably talking about themselves
So all I can say is :zzz:
Best wishes, Hans
[CodeProject Forum Guidelines] [How To Ask A Question] [My Articles]
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Marc Clifton wrote:
What are you implying? You would like a sentence by sentence response to the longer one? Perhaps a dissertation? I'll get back to you after I get a research grant.
Heh - sorry. I just wanted to know what you thought about ideas such as :- In turn, Americans see an industry full of brown people speaking barely intelligible English, and this further lowers the industry’s prestige. Computer programming and IT in general is now seen as the foreigner’s industry and not a proper profession for upwardly mobile white Americans. I am only accurately describing the fact that the typical white American thinks negatively of a profession that's predominately non-white. I actually understand what the guy is talking about. But I am not sure if all white-Americans feel that way. A few months ago at the MVP summit, I was surprised to see that a large % of Microsoft employees were of Indian origin. There might be a bit of a social-integration issue if white-Americans feel put off by the sight of a large number of brown people working in a company (any company, not just Microsoft).
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com linkNishant Sivakumar wrote:
In turn, Americans see an industry full of brown people speaking barely intelligible English
:shrug: See also: phone support, teachers, doctors... The crappy English thing is a real pitty; sad to say, i just hang up now if i hear a clipped accent on a support line - at this point, i've spent too much time and money cleaning up problems caused by a failure to understand the phrase "I DO NOT WANT CHANGES TO MY ACCOUNT". But, my doctor and former professor speak very well; i remain confident that we'll yet assimilate the other professions...
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i hope you are feeling sleepy for people not calling you by the same.
--BarnaKol on abusive words
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Virtual Coder wrote:
The long version: Why a career in computer programming sucks
"But in computer programming, the old knowledge becomes completely obsolete and useless." I don't agree with that. Technologies come and go (though many tend to stick around longer than we might expect), but the underlying principles of sound software design have not changed. They may mature as we learn more and build upon the past, but rarely do they become completely obsolete and useless. So while it's vital to stay current with the latest technologies, it's more important to keep the bigger picture in focus: How can I apply what I've learned in the past to the present? What principles can I learn from the technology I'm using today that will help me tomorrow? Good ideas, practises, algorithms, etc., are independent of technology. Think of it as a kind of polymorphism. You have an idea you're trying to realize. The technology that implements that idea can vary or change, but the idea itself may remain sound for your entire lifetime.
Leslie Sanford wrote:
Technologies come and go (though many tend to stick around longer than we might expect), but the underlying principles of sound software design have not changed. They may mature as we learn more and build upon the past, but rarely do they become completely obsolete and useless.
You know that and I do. But the recruiters I've met during the last months don't see it that way. They just compare your experience with their job requirements. For them 10 years experience in C++ is completely useless when they 'need' a C# or ASP.NET developer.
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Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
In turn, Americans see an industry full of brown people speaking barely intelligible English
:shrug: See also: phone support, teachers, doctors... The crappy English thing is a real pitty; sad to say, i just hang up now if i hear a clipped accent on a support line - at this point, i've spent too much time and money cleaning up problems caused by a failure to understand the phrase "I DO NOT WANT CHANGES TO MY ACCOUNT". But, my doctor and former professor speak very well; i remain confident that we'll yet assimilate the other professions...
----
i hope you are feeling sleepy for people not calling you by the same.
--BarnaKol on abusive words
Ok, so you confirm the point of view that primarily the low prestige jobs (textile industry, help desk, software development, ...) are outsourced.
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Virtual Coder wrote:
The long version: Why a career in computer programming sucks
"But in computer programming, the old knowledge becomes completely obsolete and useless." I don't agree with that. Technologies come and go (though many tend to stick around longer than we might expect), but the underlying principles of sound software design have not changed. They may mature as we learn more and build upon the past, but rarely do they become completely obsolete and useless. So while it's vital to stay current with the latest technologies, it's more important to keep the bigger picture in focus: How can I apply what I've learned in the past to the present? What principles can I learn from the technology I'm using today that will help me tomorrow? Good ideas, practises, algorithms, etc., are independent of technology. Think of it as a kind of polymorphism. You have an idea you're trying to realize. The technology that implements that idea can vary or change, but the idea itself may remain sound for your entire lifetime.
Leslie Sanford wrote:
Good ideas, practises, algorithms, etc., are independent of technology.
Very true. This is why most CS courses are done without the need of a computer (except for report writing, research, etc). What needs to be done in those (upper-level) courses is more math related. A language-specific compiler is just another tool at that point.
"A good athlete is the result of a good and worthy opponent." - David Crow
"To have a respect for ourselves guides our morals; to have deference for others governs our manners." - Laurence Sterne
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So hard, so cruel, so true: The short version: 10 Things About Computer Programming You May Not Agree With[^] The long version: Why a career in computer programming sucks[^]
The shortlist:
1. Computer programming is a low prestige profession.
Yeah? And what? If you want prestige, learn self-promotion. Read books on influencing people by repeating their names and pretending to give a shit about them. Or, if you're not a shallow dipshit, then do something to deserve it.
The shortlist:
2. As you get older, your desire to completely relearn everything decreases, so you are likely to succumb to the temptation of staying with the familiar technology for too long.
If you love it, you'll stick with it. If you don't, you won't. Which isn't to say you won't start to notice more of the smoke and mirrors...
The shortlist:
3. Whatever your position is, as a Computer Science person, you are socially classified as a geek.
Guess it's a good thing i'm not a CS person then... :rolleyes:
The shortlist:
4. The computer programming industry within the United States is an industry with a shrinking number of jobs (because of outsourcing).
The country as a whole is moving towards a warmer climate, in an amazingly speedy handbasket. Nothing new there...
The shortlist:
5. Computer programming and IT in general is now seen as the foreigner’s industry and not a proper profession for upwardly mobile white Americans.
Upwardly-mobile white Americans, as a rule, are smarmy, arrogant, insufferable little blots who'll sell you down river for a title. No offense... :rolleyes:
The shortlist:
6. Computer programmers face the need to move up to management or likely wind up as underemployed fifty-year-olds, only suitable for lower paying IT jobs.
Well then. Maybe we'll end up with at least a few managers who aren't utterly clueless about the people they're supposed to be managing. (I've got one - it rocks.)
The shortlist:
7. This trend, in which people without computer programming experience manage computer programming projects, is a result of the low prestige of computer programming.
Heh. The full article draws comparisons to surgeons and lawyers here. But, um, programmers are stil
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Marc Clifton wrote:
What are you implying? You would like a sentence by sentence response to the longer one? Perhaps a dissertation? I'll get back to you after I get a research grant.
Heh - sorry. I just wanted to know what you thought about ideas such as :- In turn, Americans see an industry full of brown people speaking barely intelligible English, and this further lowers the industry’s prestige. Computer programming and IT in general is now seen as the foreigner’s industry and not a proper profession for upwardly mobile white Americans. I am only accurately describing the fact that the typical white American thinks negatively of a profession that's predominately non-white. I actually understand what the guy is talking about. But I am not sure if all white-Americans feel that way. A few months ago at the MVP summit, I was surprised to see that a large % of Microsoft employees were of Indian origin. There might be a bit of a social-integration issue if white-Americans feel put off by the sight of a large number of brown people working in a company (any company, not just Microsoft).
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com linkNishant Sivakumar wrote:
In turn, Americans see an industry full of brown people speaking barely intelligible English
Most of Indian programmers/recruiters I've talked with (and yes, actually conversed with over the phone) actually speak English quite well. I even had a small consulting job with a company in the US (San Diego) that was mostly run by Indians, including the PM, whom I talked with on a regular basis. I found that, rather than language, there was a cultural difference, same with working with Japanese or Russians (which I've done), that made communication difficult. In particular was the issue that it was very hard to convince these people that changing the requirements means more money and, more importantly, more time. There seems to be cultural differences that unconsciously drive the contract negotiations. These I found more difficult to deal with than any language barrier. and this further lowers the industry’s prestige I tend to have two opinions about this. One is that corporate America, which is interested in stock price and stockholder value, undervalues ethics, worker loyalty (goes both ways), and so forth. I feel this is what is undermining the entire industry. Regardless, the second is that I think we (American programmers) have fostered an environment of distrust. Too often have I seen teams fall behind schedule, behind budget, etc., and deliver buggy products. So I can understand why outsourcing is so popular. The cost is attractive, the promises are seductive, and the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. In this case, the fence is other countries that provide cheaper and sometimes better results.
Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
There might be a bit of a social-integration issue if white-Americans feel put off by the sight of a large number of brown people working in a company
True, but I think this is an issue with Americans (or perhaps WASPs in general), or, even more to the point, expresses a degree of protectionism that any group feels. And I think it's more than "a bit" of an issue. Furthermore, it's almost impossible to quantify the true cost of outsourcing. It sounds great on paper, but the reality is often that it's at best breakeven. Or so I've been told by managers that have tried outsourcing and tried to actually track the cost of the necessary infrastructure, training, communication, and finally, actual code de
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Ok, so you confirm the point of view that primarily the low prestige jobs (textile industry, help desk, software development, ...) are outsourced.
Nope. At least, not in the sense that extra prestige for the profession would greatly reduce outsourcing. The author goes on and on about lawyers - guess what, there are a lot of lawyers who have little more "prestige" than the "accountants" working at your average strip-mall H&R Block. They fill out forms. Last i heard, there are still some laws preventing a good bit of legal work from being outsourced, but don't expect that to last long. IMHO, the outsourcing "problem" is part of a much longer trend. You know the one: it's why you'll have difficulty buying a decent pie and coffee, a well-made washing machine, or a ripe apple. There's more money for the people at the top in making a mediocre commodity and promoting the hell out of it than there is in paying skilled craftsmen a decent wage to make something of quality.
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i hope you are feeling sleepy for people not calling you by the same.
--BarnaKol on abusive words
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So hard, so cruel, so true: The short version: 10 Things About Computer Programming You May Not Agree With[^] The long version: Why a career in computer programming sucks[^]
I haven't read the articles yet, but who cares what others think? Most people automatically think I'm really smart and then ask me to fix stuff on their computers. What's wrong with being seen as smart? The technology is always changing and I personally like learning new things. I love seeing things like .NET versus my old Commodore 64. I love my job. I love what I do. How many people in the world can actually say that?
__________________ Bob is my homeboy.
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Leslie Sanford wrote:
Technologies come and go (though many tend to stick around longer than we might expect), but the underlying principles of sound software design have not changed. They may mature as we learn more and build upon the past, but rarely do they become completely obsolete and useless.
You know that and I do. But the recruiters I've met during the last months don't see it that way. They just compare your experience with their job requirements. For them 10 years experience in C++ is completely useless when they 'need' a C# or ASP.NET developer.
Virtual Coder wrote:
For them 10 years experience in C++ is completely useless when they 'need' a C# or ASP.NET developer.
Ummm...yeah. So you think 15 years working in a Taco Bell kitchen qualifies you to work as a cheif chef at a 5 star restaurant? Im not comparing C++ to Taco Bell or .NET to the 5 star restaurant by any means but when a client requires a .NET developer and all you know is C++ it doesnt help that you can learn it. If it is an issue go learn it then they cant say anything. Just remind them that there are no 10 year .NET veterans.
CleaKO
"Now, a man would have opened both gates, driven through and not bothered to close either gate." - Marc Clifton (The Lounge)
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The shortlist:
1. Computer programming is a low prestige profession.
Yeah? And what? If you want prestige, learn self-promotion. Read books on influencing people by repeating their names and pretending to give a shit about them. Or, if you're not a shallow dipshit, then do something to deserve it.
The shortlist:
2. As you get older, your desire to completely relearn everything decreases, so you are likely to succumb to the temptation of staying with the familiar technology for too long.
If you love it, you'll stick with it. If you don't, you won't. Which isn't to say you won't start to notice more of the smoke and mirrors...
The shortlist:
3. Whatever your position is, as a Computer Science person, you are socially classified as a geek.
Guess it's a good thing i'm not a CS person then... :rolleyes:
The shortlist:
4. The computer programming industry within the United States is an industry with a shrinking number of jobs (because of outsourcing).
The country as a whole is moving towards a warmer climate, in an amazingly speedy handbasket. Nothing new there...
The shortlist:
5. Computer programming and IT in general is now seen as the foreigner’s industry and not a proper profession for upwardly mobile white Americans.
Upwardly-mobile white Americans, as a rule, are smarmy, arrogant, insufferable little blots who'll sell you down river for a title. No offense... :rolleyes:
The shortlist:
6. Computer programmers face the need to move up to management or likely wind up as underemployed fifty-year-olds, only suitable for lower paying IT jobs.
Well then. Maybe we'll end up with at least a few managers who aren't utterly clueless about the people they're supposed to be managing. (I've got one - it rocks.)
The shortlist:
7. This trend, in which people without computer programming experience manage computer programming projects, is a result of the low prestige of computer programming.
Heh. The full article draws comparisons to surgeons and lawyers here. But, um, programmers are stil
Shog9 wrote:
Upwardly-mobile white Americans, as a rule, are smarmy, arrogant, insufferable little blots who'll sell you down river for a title. No offense...
Non Taken. but then again I don't really fit that image. I say exactly what I mean and do it.
Shog9 wrote:
Well then. Maybe we'll end up with at least a few managers who aren't utterly clueless about the people they're supposed to be managing. (I've got one - it rocks.)
Completely agree. I have the best boss I have ever had.:)
God Bless, Jason
DavidCrow wrote:
It would not affect me or my family one iota. My wife and I are in charge of when the tv is on, and what it displays. I do not need any external input for that.
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So hard, so cruel, so true: The short version: 10 Things About Computer Programming You May Not Agree With[^] The long version: Why a career in computer programming sucks[^]
Virtual Coder wrote:
Why a career in computer programming sucks[^]
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I haven't read the articles yet, but who cares what others think? Most people automatically think I'm really smart and then ask me to fix stuff on their computers. What's wrong with being seen as smart? The technology is always changing and I personally like learning new things. I love seeing things like .NET versus my old Commodore 64. I love my job. I love what I do. How many people in the world can actually say that?
__________________ Bob is my homeboy.
leckey wrote:
I love my job. I love what I do. How many people in the world can actually say that?
I might be the other person. I share your feelings about my job.:) New technology makes me happy.:-O
God Bless, Jason
DavidCrow wrote:
It would not affect me or my family one iota. My wife and I are in charge of when the tv is on, and what it displays. I do not need any external input for that.
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So hard, so cruel, so true: The short version: 10 Things About Computer Programming You May Not Agree With[^] The long version: Why a career in computer programming sucks[^]
as you get older your desire to completely relearn everything decreases, so you are likely to succumb to the temptation of staying with the familiar technology for too long. At what point are they saying that this occurs? If I still need to work at 60 that only means I was lazy all those prior years :D
Todd Smith