Why a career in computer programming sucks
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I haven't read the articles yet, but who cares what others think? Most people automatically think I'm really smart and then ask me to fix stuff on their computers. What's wrong with being seen as smart? The technology is always changing and I personally like learning new things. I love seeing things like .NET versus my old Commodore 64. I love my job. I love what I do. How many people in the world can actually say that?
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leckey wrote:
I love what I do. How many people in the world can actually say that?
I can! I can! * jumps up and down waving hands in the air *
Upcoming events: * Glasgow: SQL Server 2005 - XML and XML Query Plans, Mock Objects, SQL Server Reporting Services... Never write for other people. Write for yourself, because you have a passion for it. -- Marc Clifton My website
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Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
In turn, Americans see an industry full of brown people speaking barely intelligible English
Most of Indian programmers/recruiters I've talked with (and yes, actually conversed with over the phone) actually speak English quite well. I even had a small consulting job with a company in the US (San Diego) that was mostly run by Indians, including the PM, whom I talked with on a regular basis. I found that, rather than language, there was a cultural difference, same with working with Japanese or Russians (which I've done), that made communication difficult. In particular was the issue that it was very hard to convince these people that changing the requirements means more money and, more importantly, more time. There seems to be cultural differences that unconsciously drive the contract negotiations. These I found more difficult to deal with than any language barrier. and this further lowers the industry’s prestige I tend to have two opinions about this. One is that corporate America, which is interested in stock price and stockholder value, undervalues ethics, worker loyalty (goes both ways), and so forth. I feel this is what is undermining the entire industry. Regardless, the second is that I think we (American programmers) have fostered an environment of distrust. Too often have I seen teams fall behind schedule, behind budget, etc., and deliver buggy products. So I can understand why outsourcing is so popular. The cost is attractive, the promises are seductive, and the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence. In this case, the fence is other countries that provide cheaper and sometimes better results.
Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
There might be a bit of a social-integration issue if white-Americans feel put off by the sight of a large number of brown people working in a company
True, but I think this is an issue with Americans (or perhaps WASPs in general), or, even more to the point, expresses a degree of protectionism that any group feels. And I think it's more than "a bit" of an issue. Furthermore, it's almost impossible to quantify the true cost of outsourcing. It sounds great on paper, but the reality is often that it's at best breakeven. Or so I've been told by managers that have tried outsourcing and tried to actually track the cost of the necessary infrastructure, training, communication, and finally, actual code de
Awesome post Marc. I'd just like to have it on record that one of the 5 votes you got was mine (the first) :-)
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com link -
Virtual Coder wrote:
For them 10 years experience in C++ is completely useless when they 'need' a C# or ASP.NET developer.
Ummm...yeah. So you think 15 years working in a Taco Bell kitchen qualifies you to work as a cheif chef at a 5 star restaurant? Im not comparing C++ to Taco Bell or .NET to the 5 star restaurant by any means but when a client requires a .NET developer and all you know is C++ it doesnt help that you can learn it. If it is an issue go learn it then they cant say anything. Just remind them that there are no 10 year .NET veterans.
CleaKO
"Now, a man would have opened both gates, driven through and not bothered to close either gate." - Marc Clifton (The Lounge)
Put it this way. The guy with 10 years C++ and 1 year C# is more likely to be a better developer than the guy with just 5 years C#. However, I've seen guys with supposedly 15 years experience being outshone by a guy just 2 years out of uni.
Upcoming events: * Glasgow: SQL Server 2005 - XML and XML Query Plans, Mock Objects, SQL Server Reporting Services... Never write for other people. Write for yourself, because you have a passion for it. -- Marc Clifton My website
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Virtual Coder wrote:
The long version: Why a career in computer programming sucks[^]
Sounds like someone needs a hug :rolleyes:
led mike
led mike wrote:
Sounds like someone needs a hug
Or a kick in the balls! :omg: I'm not sure which.
Upcoming events: * Glasgow: SQL Server 2005 - XML and XML Query Plans, Mock Objects, SQL Server Reporting Services... Never write for other people. Write for yourself, because you have a passion for it. -- Marc Clifton My website
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Marc Clifton wrote:
What are you implying? You would like a sentence by sentence response to the longer one? Perhaps a dissertation? I'll get back to you after I get a research grant.
Heh - sorry. I just wanted to know what you thought about ideas such as :- In turn, Americans see an industry full of brown people speaking barely intelligible English, and this further lowers the industry’s prestige. Computer programming and IT in general is now seen as the foreigner’s industry and not a proper profession for upwardly mobile white Americans. I am only accurately describing the fact that the typical white American thinks negatively of a profession that's predominately non-white. I actually understand what the guy is talking about. But I am not sure if all white-Americans feel that way. A few months ago at the MVP summit, I was surprised to see that a large % of Microsoft employees were of Indian origin. There might be a bit of a social-integration issue if white-Americans feel put off by the sight of a large number of brown people working in a company (any company, not just Microsoft).
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com linkNishant Sivakumar wrote:
A few months ago at the MVP summit, I was surprised to see that a large % of Microsoft employees were of Indian origin.
Why were you surprised? I know Microsoft pretty much only hire the best. Even although we usually get most of the crud through the forums, there must always be some creme that rises to the top. India is churning out so many IT staff these days it is just a numbers game. Most will be crap. Some will be all right. And a few will rise to the top - and because there are so many of them, there will be a lot at the top (perhaps not as a percentage, but as an absolute figure)
Upcoming events: * Glasgow: SQL Server 2005 - XML and XML Query Plans, Mock Objects, SQL Server Reporting Services... Never write for other people. Write for yourself, because you have a passion for it. -- Marc Clifton My website
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led mike wrote:
Sounds like someone needs a hug
Or a kick in the balls! :omg: I'm not sure which.
Upcoming events: * Glasgow: SQL Server 2005 - XML and XML Query Plans, Mock Objects, SQL Server Reporting Services... Never write for other people. Write for yourself, because you have a passion for it. -- Marc Clifton My website
Definately needs a kick! :~
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Awesome post Marc. I'd just like to have it on record that one of the 5 votes you got was mine (the first) :-)
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com linkNishant Sivakumar wrote:
Awesome post Marc. I'd just like to have it on record that one of the 5 votes you got was mine (the first)
Thanks Nish! :) Marc
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Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
A few months ago at the MVP summit, I was surprised to see that a large % of Microsoft employees were of Indian origin.
Why were you surprised? I know Microsoft pretty much only hire the best. Even although we usually get most of the crud through the forums, there must always be some creme that rises to the top. India is churning out so many IT staff these days it is just a numbers game. Most will be crap. Some will be all right. And a few will rise to the top - and because there are so many of them, there will be a lot at the top (perhaps not as a percentage, but as an absolute figure)
Upcoming events: * Glasgow: SQL Server 2005 - XML and XML Query Plans, Mock Objects, SQL Server Reporting Services... Never write for other people. Write for yourself, because you have a passion for it. -- Marc Clifton My website
Colin Angus Mackay wrote:
Why were you surprised?
I wasn't surprised as in "wow, how can there be so many Indians here?" - I was surprised more as in "wow, I didn't think there'd be so many Indians here".
Colin Angus Mackay wrote:
because there are so many of them, there will be a lot at the top (perhaps not as a percentage, but as an absolute figure)
Totally agree. And that's probably one big reason that Bill Gates has been pushing for an increase in H1B Visas; because he knows there are many more out there he can fly into Redmond.
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com link -
So hard, so cruel, so true: The short version: 10 Things About Computer Programming You May Not Agree With[^] The long version: Why a career in computer programming sucks[^]
When I see and hear about some other jobs out there, I can't think of one better. Let's see: - You are well paid, even with outsourcing and all the rest. It's still a highly paid job with very good employment prospects. - You have extreme job flexibility. Be a corporate flunky with a cubicle, a part time contractor working from a remote island, start your own internet company and get VC funding. You can work in any country, on any project, as long as you know the tools. - You categorically do not get your hands dirty or even so much as raise a bead of sweat on your forehead, and you can keep doing it as long as you can keep up the concentration. - There are no formal qualifications, associations or exams to pass on entry. - The industry will just keep growing and growing for at least another 50 years. - It's an absolute fallacy that other professions such as law and accounting don't require continuous retraining and knowledge. The laws constantly change, and accounting is radically different to what it was 10 years ago. Ask a tax specialist how useful it is to know the income tax laws pertaining to 1997 and you'll get an idea of how much they have to continually study to stay current. The guy who wrote this is upset at his life, well, it's unlikely that a new job would fix that. Happiness comes from within, not from a embossed nameplate on a corner office. Perhaps he got turned down by a model for a date because of his profession. I don't know his gripe, but any job, and I mean any job, has it's downsides. Certainly being a lawyer or investment banker may ultimately pay better and carry more status (debatable) but your probability of success is much lower. Programming carries with it high graduate salaries, a broad range of industries to be employed in, and a high median salary. And let's face it, the top 10 richest people in the world is rich with former programmers, including 'ol Bill on number 1. I think 'richest guy in the world' is probably enough status to get a date with even the pickiest supermodel you can find.
Bruce Chapman iFinity.com.au - Websites and Software Development Plithy remark available in Beta 2
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led mike wrote:
Sounds like someone needs a hug
Or a kick in the balls! :omg: I'm not sure which.
Upcoming events: * Glasgow: SQL Server 2005 - XML and XML Query Plans, Mock Objects, SQL Server Reporting Services... Never write for other people. Write for yourself, because you have a passion for it. -- Marc Clifton My website
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Computer programming is a low prestige profession. Hardly. I get "oohs" and "aahs" amongst the people I hang out with. Well, I guess, what do you expect from farmers, teachers, and B&B owners. As you get older, your desire to completely relearn everything decreases, so you are likely to succumb to the temptation of staying with the familiar technology for too long. If I get to that point, shoot me. Whatever your position is, as a Computer Science person, you are socially classified as a geek. So? Label-shmabel. I really don't care. One's gotta make a name for oneself where one can! The computer programming industry within the United States is an industry with a shrinking number of jobs (because of outsourcing). Good! Take all that crappy programming jobs overseas! Computer programming and IT in general is now seen as the foreigner’s industry and not a proper profession for upwardly mobile white Americans. Good! See previous point. Oh, and the "upwardly mobile white American" is history anyways, regardless of career. Computer programmers face the need to move up to management or likely wind up as underemployed fifty-year-olds, only suitable for lower paying IT jobs. While I may feel the need to be an underemployed fifty year old, I don't feel the need to move up to management. Why it's called "moving up to management" is beyond me. Sounds like a major stepping off the cliff to me! Regardless, there's more to life than IT. This trend, in which people without computer programming experience manage computer programming projects, is a result of the low prestige of computer programming. As others said, I really don't care what you think of computer programming. I think it's cool. If you look forward to one day having your own private office, then computer programming sure isn’t the way to go. Dude. I work in my own private house. (Well, ok, mobile home). Beer anytime (if I drank the stuff), take a snooze, go for a bike ride, whatever. Computer programmers are cubicle employees, not considered important enough to be given nice workspaces. Dude. See previous comment. If you can’t get into a Top 14 law school or a top graduate business school, then public accounting probably provides a better career path than computer programming. Career path is one thing. Being happy with what I do in life is another. They don't have to be exclusive, but I'll tell you som
There are points that are very much true: 1) getting older and still working like shit/young/mad donkey :mad: 2) the need to move up or be underemployed is every present danger :doh: I.T business is not like any other business it changes it self faster than the season some one wake up some day and tell the world he has created a website where people can make a shit-online and next day and world start to make shit... but hay do we already make the shit? :laugh: :laugh: Being a geek in non-geek communities/countries make the I.T workers more pissed off and non-satisfied because people don't understand what programmers do by sitting 12 to 18 hours a day on same chair :suss: :omg: :^)
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depending on ones political party and/or religion, I'm not sure there is a difference. :-D
led mike
led mike wrote:
depending on ones political party and/or religion,
That reminds me of the quote, "A man without a religion is like a fish without a bicycle" :-D
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So hard, so cruel, so true: The short version: 10 Things About Computer Programming You May Not Agree With[^] The long version: Why a career in computer programming sucks[^]
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Well I agree. I have to admit I've never met an older programmer in their fifties who wasn't a manager. Programming is largely a young person's profession. And one of the most important things is to keep moving and evoluting to up-to-date technologies. Better technologies usually mean faster development and less reinventing the wheel. Focus on the polish, not the basic features. Even if you are way behind, make a start.
Ben Glancy Software Developer Articad Ltd
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Well I agree. I have to admit I've never met an older programmer in their fifties who wasn't a manager. Programming is largely a young person's profession. And one of the most important things is to keep moving and evoluting to up-to-date technologies. Better technologies usually mean faster development and less reinventing the wheel. Focus on the polish, not the basic features. Even if you are way behind, make a start.
Ben Glancy Software Developer Articad Ltd
I won't agree on this. In our company one very old programmer is working. His age may be more than 55, he may retair with in next two years. Still he is very good C++ programmer, Most of server side programming he is Writing ( He is not managing), still he is writing code. Our programme architecture avh age is 45.
Ravi
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Computer programming is a low prestige profession. Hardly. I get "oohs" and "aahs" amongst the people I hang out with. Well, I guess, what do you expect from farmers, teachers, and B&B owners. As you get older, your desire to completely relearn everything decreases, so you are likely to succumb to the temptation of staying with the familiar technology for too long. If I get to that point, shoot me. Whatever your position is, as a Computer Science person, you are socially classified as a geek. So? Label-shmabel. I really don't care. One's gotta make a name for oneself where one can! The computer programming industry within the United States is an industry with a shrinking number of jobs (because of outsourcing). Good! Take all that crappy programming jobs overseas! Computer programming and IT in general is now seen as the foreigner’s industry and not a proper profession for upwardly mobile white Americans. Good! See previous point. Oh, and the "upwardly mobile white American" is history anyways, regardless of career. Computer programmers face the need to move up to management or likely wind up as underemployed fifty-year-olds, only suitable for lower paying IT jobs. While I may feel the need to be an underemployed fifty year old, I don't feel the need to move up to management. Why it's called "moving up to management" is beyond me. Sounds like a major stepping off the cliff to me! Regardless, there's more to life than IT. This trend, in which people without computer programming experience manage computer programming projects, is a result of the low prestige of computer programming. As others said, I really don't care what you think of computer programming. I think it's cool. If you look forward to one day having your own private office, then computer programming sure isn’t the way to go. Dude. I work in my own private house. (Well, ok, mobile home). Beer anytime (if I drank the stuff), take a snooze, go for a bike ride, whatever. Computer programmers are cubicle employees, not considered important enough to be given nice workspaces. Dude. See previous comment. If you can’t get into a Top 14 law school or a top graduate business school, then public accounting probably provides a better career path than computer programming. Career path is one thing. Being happy with what I do in life is another. They don't have to be exclusive, but I'll tell you som
I totally agree with you!!!
Pedro Remedios Programmer Graphicsware http://www.graphicsware.org
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So hard, so cruel, so true: The short version: 10 Things About Computer Programming You May Not Agree With[^] The long version: Why a career in computer programming sucks[^]
>If you can’t get into a Top 14 law school or a top graduate business school, then public accounting probably provides a >better career path than computer Very much doubt it. After my degree, I started off as a software engineer. I quit the computer profession during the downturn in 2002. Retrained to be an Actuary.(An actuary is like an accountant but with harder exams, more money/respect and easier promotion in the financial world). After almost 4 years doing it I realised I was doing a painfully boring (yet stressful) job that was a bad fit for someone who liked science and computers. I have now changed back to being a software engineer and I must say I find the job A LOT more interesting. Who cares if it means I won't buy a new BMW. My friends and girlfriend even say I'm outwardly a happier person now that I'm doing a job I like again! >Computer programming is a low prestige profession. A lot of people are impressed when you tell them you do this, who cares if not everyone says "wow!". Besides, ALL Engineers have the same problem. People who work in factories drilling holes all day call themselves engineers! >As you get older, your desire to completely relearn everything decreases, so you are likely to succumb to the temptation of >staying with the familiar technology for too long. But this also keeps challenging you which prevents going stale.
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So hard, so cruel, so true: The short version: 10 Things About Computer Programming You May Not Agree With[^] The long version: Why a career in computer programming sucks[^]
That's why I'm going into law.
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jparken wrote:
Sounds like a whiner to me --- he's stuck in a dead-end job and doesn't really want to learn anything new. Shucks, that's part of what keeps this type of job interesting --- new languages to learn and use.
Absolutely - I love learning new stuff. I'm actually taking a reading holiday so I can catch up on some of it.
Upcoming events: * Glasgow: SQL Server 2005 - XML and XML Query Plans, Mock Objects, SQL Server Reporting Services... Never write for other people. Write for yourself, because you have a passion for it. -- Marc Clifton My website
Colin Angus Mackay wrote:
learning new stuff.
It's great, if you can make time for it. But what really does my head in is how MS change the IDE so much from one version to the next (esp 2003-2005) AND they pretty much lock the IDE to the version of the .NET framework :mad:. Getting *NEW* functionality is great - but having to relear *existing* ways of doing stuff gets on my nerves. But then again, it's only once every 2-3 years that you have to take that leap.
"For fifty bucks I'd put my face in their soup and blow." - George Costanza
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Wow! What a cynical pile of crap.
Because of the temporary nature of the knowledge capital, computer programmers quickly reach a stage in their career when their old knowledge capital becomes worthless at the same rate as they acquire knew knowledge capital. Their total knowledge capital is no longer increasing, so neither does their salary increase. They have reached the dead end plateau of their career, and it happens after less than ten years in the field.
That is rubbish - I've been programming for 24 years now and my knowledge aquisition is growing faster than I actually need it. I have lots of spare capacity so in my spare time I'll be learning about stuff that I don't have any need for in work - just because I enjoy it.
Lawyers are still citing Blackstone’s Commentaries on the Laws of England which was completed in 1769. Now there’s an example of a profession where knowledge capital deteriorates at a very slow rate.
Laws aren't static, they get changed and updated all the time. A lawyer will be required to continue updating their knowledge continuously too. When I develop software I've been known to cite various things that go back much further than 1769. Some ideas that I've implemented go back over 2000 years.
Computer programming is a low prestige profession.
It depends on what you take out of it. I get all the prestige I need.
but foreignization best explains what’s happening in the computer programming industry... The other half of foreignization is the near abandonment of the domestic IT market to foreigners. This is a trend that is accelerated by the issuance of special H1-B visas that allow extra computer programmers to come here and take jobs away from American programmers.
Here is the real problem. The total number of university places in the USA have stays fairly static for the last 70 years. If you want to reduce outsourcing then educate yourselves and that won't happen until the opportunity is there. Compare that to Scotland. I live in a city with 3 good quality universities and there is another just 5 miles outside the city too. The city I used to live in has 3 universities. And there are another four between the 4 remaining cities too. Population 5 million. 12 Universities. That is 1 university per 417,000 of population. Not quite got the grades to get in to university. Pretty much each town has a college (or campus of a college). The
Colin Angus Mackay wrote:
Get a job with a better company then.
Exactly! So much of your job satisfaction comes down to the company and how good you are (i.e. can you easily find a better job or not). And really that's the case *regardless* of your profession.
"For fifty bucks I'd put my face in their soup and blow." - George Costanza
CP article: SmartPager - a Flickr-style pager control with go-to-page popup layer.