Why a career in computer programming sucks
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Nishant Sivakumar wrote:
A few months ago at the MVP summit, I was surprised to see that a large % of Microsoft employees were of Indian origin.
Why were you surprised? I know Microsoft pretty much only hire the best. Even although we usually get most of the crud through the forums, there must always be some creme that rises to the top. India is churning out so many IT staff these days it is just a numbers game. Most will be crap. Some will be all right. And a few will rise to the top - and because there are so many of them, there will be a lot at the top (perhaps not as a percentage, but as an absolute figure)
Upcoming events: * Glasgow: SQL Server 2005 - XML and XML Query Plans, Mock Objects, SQL Server Reporting Services... Never write for other people. Write for yourself, because you have a passion for it. -- Marc Clifton My website
Colin Angus Mackay wrote:
Why were you surprised?
I wasn't surprised as in "wow, how can there be so many Indians here?" - I was surprised more as in "wow, I didn't think there'd be so many Indians here".
Colin Angus Mackay wrote:
because there are so many of them, there will be a lot at the top (perhaps not as a percentage, but as an absolute figure)
Totally agree. And that's probably one big reason that Bill Gates has been pushing for an increase in H1B Visas; because he knows there are many more out there he can fly into Redmond.
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com link -
So hard, so cruel, so true: The short version: 10 Things About Computer Programming You May Not Agree With[^] The long version: Why a career in computer programming sucks[^]
When I see and hear about some other jobs out there, I can't think of one better. Let's see: - You are well paid, even with outsourcing and all the rest. It's still a highly paid job with very good employment prospects. - You have extreme job flexibility. Be a corporate flunky with a cubicle, a part time contractor working from a remote island, start your own internet company and get VC funding. You can work in any country, on any project, as long as you know the tools. - You categorically do not get your hands dirty or even so much as raise a bead of sweat on your forehead, and you can keep doing it as long as you can keep up the concentration. - There are no formal qualifications, associations or exams to pass on entry. - The industry will just keep growing and growing for at least another 50 years. - It's an absolute fallacy that other professions such as law and accounting don't require continuous retraining and knowledge. The laws constantly change, and accounting is radically different to what it was 10 years ago. Ask a tax specialist how useful it is to know the income tax laws pertaining to 1997 and you'll get an idea of how much they have to continually study to stay current. The guy who wrote this is upset at his life, well, it's unlikely that a new job would fix that. Happiness comes from within, not from a embossed nameplate on a corner office. Perhaps he got turned down by a model for a date because of his profession. I don't know his gripe, but any job, and I mean any job, has it's downsides. Certainly being a lawyer or investment banker may ultimately pay better and carry more status (debatable) but your probability of success is much lower. Programming carries with it high graduate salaries, a broad range of industries to be employed in, and a high median salary. And let's face it, the top 10 richest people in the world is rich with former programmers, including 'ol Bill on number 1. I think 'richest guy in the world' is probably enough status to get a date with even the pickiest supermodel you can find.
Bruce Chapman iFinity.com.au - Websites and Software Development Plithy remark available in Beta 2
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led mike wrote:
Sounds like someone needs a hug
Or a kick in the balls! :omg: I'm not sure which.
Upcoming events: * Glasgow: SQL Server 2005 - XML and XML Query Plans, Mock Objects, SQL Server Reporting Services... Never write for other people. Write for yourself, because you have a passion for it. -- Marc Clifton My website
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Computer programming is a low prestige profession. Hardly. I get "oohs" and "aahs" amongst the people I hang out with. Well, I guess, what do you expect from farmers, teachers, and B&B owners. As you get older, your desire to completely relearn everything decreases, so you are likely to succumb to the temptation of staying with the familiar technology for too long. If I get to that point, shoot me. Whatever your position is, as a Computer Science person, you are socially classified as a geek. So? Label-shmabel. I really don't care. One's gotta make a name for oneself where one can! The computer programming industry within the United States is an industry with a shrinking number of jobs (because of outsourcing). Good! Take all that crappy programming jobs overseas! Computer programming and IT in general is now seen as the foreigner’s industry and not a proper profession for upwardly mobile white Americans. Good! See previous point. Oh, and the "upwardly mobile white American" is history anyways, regardless of career. Computer programmers face the need to move up to management or likely wind up as underemployed fifty-year-olds, only suitable for lower paying IT jobs. While I may feel the need to be an underemployed fifty year old, I don't feel the need to move up to management. Why it's called "moving up to management" is beyond me. Sounds like a major stepping off the cliff to me! Regardless, there's more to life than IT. This trend, in which people without computer programming experience manage computer programming projects, is a result of the low prestige of computer programming. As others said, I really don't care what you think of computer programming. I think it's cool. If you look forward to one day having your own private office, then computer programming sure isn’t the way to go. Dude. I work in my own private house. (Well, ok, mobile home). Beer anytime (if I drank the stuff), take a snooze, go for a bike ride, whatever. Computer programmers are cubicle employees, not considered important enough to be given nice workspaces. Dude. See previous comment. If you can’t get into a Top 14 law school or a top graduate business school, then public accounting probably provides a better career path than computer programming. Career path is one thing. Being happy with what I do in life is another. They don't have to be exclusive, but I'll tell you som
There are points that are very much true: 1) getting older and still working like shit/young/mad donkey :mad: 2) the need to move up or be underemployed is every present danger :doh: I.T business is not like any other business it changes it self faster than the season some one wake up some day and tell the world he has created a website where people can make a shit-online and next day and world start to make shit... but hay do we already make the shit? :laugh: :laugh: Being a geek in non-geek communities/countries make the I.T workers more pissed off and non-satisfied because people don't understand what programmers do by sitting 12 to 18 hours a day on same chair :suss: :omg: :^)
--------------------------- Life is a game... with limited life line and unlimited power! http://www.idlsol.com
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depending on ones political party and/or religion, I'm not sure there is a difference. :-D
led mike
led mike wrote:
depending on ones political party and/or religion,
That reminds me of the quote, "A man without a religion is like a fish without a bicycle" :-D
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So hard, so cruel, so true: The short version: 10 Things About Computer Programming You May Not Agree With[^] The long version: Why a career in computer programming sucks[^]
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Well I agree. I have to admit I've never met an older programmer in their fifties who wasn't a manager. Programming is largely a young person's profession. And one of the most important things is to keep moving and evoluting to up-to-date technologies. Better technologies usually mean faster development and less reinventing the wheel. Focus on the polish, not the basic features. Even if you are way behind, make a start.
Ben Glancy Software Developer Articad Ltd
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Well I agree. I have to admit I've never met an older programmer in their fifties who wasn't a manager. Programming is largely a young person's profession. And one of the most important things is to keep moving and evoluting to up-to-date technologies. Better technologies usually mean faster development and less reinventing the wheel. Focus on the polish, not the basic features. Even if you are way behind, make a start.
Ben Glancy Software Developer Articad Ltd
I won't agree on this. In our company one very old programmer is working. His age may be more than 55, he may retair with in next two years. Still he is very good C++ programmer, Most of server side programming he is Writing ( He is not managing), still he is writing code. Our programme architecture avh age is 45.
Ravi
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Computer programming is a low prestige profession. Hardly. I get "oohs" and "aahs" amongst the people I hang out with. Well, I guess, what do you expect from farmers, teachers, and B&B owners. As you get older, your desire to completely relearn everything decreases, so you are likely to succumb to the temptation of staying with the familiar technology for too long. If I get to that point, shoot me. Whatever your position is, as a Computer Science person, you are socially classified as a geek. So? Label-shmabel. I really don't care. One's gotta make a name for oneself where one can! The computer programming industry within the United States is an industry with a shrinking number of jobs (because of outsourcing). Good! Take all that crappy programming jobs overseas! Computer programming and IT in general is now seen as the foreigner’s industry and not a proper profession for upwardly mobile white Americans. Good! See previous point. Oh, and the "upwardly mobile white American" is history anyways, regardless of career. Computer programmers face the need to move up to management or likely wind up as underemployed fifty-year-olds, only suitable for lower paying IT jobs. While I may feel the need to be an underemployed fifty year old, I don't feel the need to move up to management. Why it's called "moving up to management" is beyond me. Sounds like a major stepping off the cliff to me! Regardless, there's more to life than IT. This trend, in which people without computer programming experience manage computer programming projects, is a result of the low prestige of computer programming. As others said, I really don't care what you think of computer programming. I think it's cool. If you look forward to one day having your own private office, then computer programming sure isn’t the way to go. Dude. I work in my own private house. (Well, ok, mobile home). Beer anytime (if I drank the stuff), take a snooze, go for a bike ride, whatever. Computer programmers are cubicle employees, not considered important enough to be given nice workspaces. Dude. See previous comment. If you can’t get into a Top 14 law school or a top graduate business school, then public accounting probably provides a better career path than computer programming. Career path is one thing. Being happy with what I do in life is another. They don't have to be exclusive, but I'll tell you som
I totally agree with you!!!
Pedro Remedios Programmer Graphicsware http://www.graphicsware.org
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So hard, so cruel, so true: The short version: 10 Things About Computer Programming You May Not Agree With[^] The long version: Why a career in computer programming sucks[^]
>If you can’t get into a Top 14 law school or a top graduate business school, then public accounting probably provides a >better career path than computer Very much doubt it. After my degree, I started off as a software engineer. I quit the computer profession during the downturn in 2002. Retrained to be an Actuary.(An actuary is like an accountant but with harder exams, more money/respect and easier promotion in the financial world). After almost 4 years doing it I realised I was doing a painfully boring (yet stressful) job that was a bad fit for someone who liked science and computers. I have now changed back to being a software engineer and I must say I find the job A LOT more interesting. Who cares if it means I won't buy a new BMW. My friends and girlfriend even say I'm outwardly a happier person now that I'm doing a job I like again! >Computer programming is a low prestige profession. A lot of people are impressed when you tell them you do this, who cares if not everyone says "wow!". Besides, ALL Engineers have the same problem. People who work in factories drilling holes all day call themselves engineers! >As you get older, your desire to completely relearn everything decreases, so you are likely to succumb to the temptation of >staying with the familiar technology for too long. But this also keeps challenging you which prevents going stale.
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So hard, so cruel, so true: The short version: 10 Things About Computer Programming You May Not Agree With[^] The long version: Why a career in computer programming sucks[^]
That's why I'm going into law.
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jparken wrote:
Sounds like a whiner to me --- he's stuck in a dead-end job and doesn't really want to learn anything new. Shucks, that's part of what keeps this type of job interesting --- new languages to learn and use.
Absolutely - I love learning new stuff. I'm actually taking a reading holiday so I can catch up on some of it.
Upcoming events: * Glasgow: SQL Server 2005 - XML and XML Query Plans, Mock Objects, SQL Server Reporting Services... Never write for other people. Write for yourself, because you have a passion for it. -- Marc Clifton My website
Colin Angus Mackay wrote:
learning new stuff.
It's great, if you can make time for it. But what really does my head in is how MS change the IDE so much from one version to the next (esp 2003-2005) AND they pretty much lock the IDE to the version of the .NET framework :mad:. Getting *NEW* functionality is great - but having to relear *existing* ways of doing stuff gets on my nerves. But then again, it's only once every 2-3 years that you have to take that leap.
"For fifty bucks I'd put my face in their soup and blow." - George Costanza
CP article: SmartPager - a Flickr-style pager control with go-to-page popup layer.
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Wow! What a cynical pile of crap.
Because of the temporary nature of the knowledge capital, computer programmers quickly reach a stage in their career when their old knowledge capital becomes worthless at the same rate as they acquire knew knowledge capital. Their total knowledge capital is no longer increasing, so neither does their salary increase. They have reached the dead end plateau of their career, and it happens after less than ten years in the field.
That is rubbish - I've been programming for 24 years now and my knowledge aquisition is growing faster than I actually need it. I have lots of spare capacity so in my spare time I'll be learning about stuff that I don't have any need for in work - just because I enjoy it.
Lawyers are still citing Blackstone’s Commentaries on the Laws of England which was completed in 1769. Now there’s an example of a profession where knowledge capital deteriorates at a very slow rate.
Laws aren't static, they get changed and updated all the time. A lawyer will be required to continue updating their knowledge continuously too. When I develop software I've been known to cite various things that go back much further than 1769. Some ideas that I've implemented go back over 2000 years.
Computer programming is a low prestige profession.
It depends on what you take out of it. I get all the prestige I need.
but foreignization best explains what’s happening in the computer programming industry... The other half of foreignization is the near abandonment of the domestic IT market to foreigners. This is a trend that is accelerated by the issuance of special H1-B visas that allow extra computer programmers to come here and take jobs away from American programmers.
Here is the real problem. The total number of university places in the USA have stays fairly static for the last 70 years. If you want to reduce outsourcing then educate yourselves and that won't happen until the opportunity is there. Compare that to Scotland. I live in a city with 3 good quality universities and there is another just 5 miles outside the city too. The city I used to live in has 3 universities. And there are another four between the 4 remaining cities too. Population 5 million. 12 Universities. That is 1 university per 417,000 of population. Not quite got the grades to get in to university. Pretty much each town has a college (or campus of a college). The
Colin Angus Mackay wrote:
Get a job with a better company then.
Exactly! So much of your job satisfaction comes down to the company and how good you are (i.e. can you easily find a better job or not). And really that's the case *regardless* of your profession.
"For fifty bucks I'd put my face in their soup and blow." - George Costanza
CP article: SmartPager - a Flickr-style pager control with go-to-page popup layer.
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Computer programming is a low prestige profession. Hardly. I get "oohs" and "aahs" amongst the people I hang out with. Well, I guess, what do you expect from farmers, teachers, and B&B owners. As you get older, your desire to completely relearn everything decreases, so you are likely to succumb to the temptation of staying with the familiar technology for too long. If I get to that point, shoot me. Whatever your position is, as a Computer Science person, you are socially classified as a geek. So? Label-shmabel. I really don't care. One's gotta make a name for oneself where one can! The computer programming industry within the United States is an industry with a shrinking number of jobs (because of outsourcing). Good! Take all that crappy programming jobs overseas! Computer programming and IT in general is now seen as the foreigner’s industry and not a proper profession for upwardly mobile white Americans. Good! See previous point. Oh, and the "upwardly mobile white American" is history anyways, regardless of career. Computer programmers face the need to move up to management or likely wind up as underemployed fifty-year-olds, only suitable for lower paying IT jobs. While I may feel the need to be an underemployed fifty year old, I don't feel the need to move up to management. Why it's called "moving up to management" is beyond me. Sounds like a major stepping off the cliff to me! Regardless, there's more to life than IT. This trend, in which people without computer programming experience manage computer programming projects, is a result of the low prestige of computer programming. As others said, I really don't care what you think of computer programming. I think it's cool. If you look forward to one day having your own private office, then computer programming sure isn’t the way to go. Dude. I work in my own private house. (Well, ok, mobile home). Beer anytime (if I drank the stuff), take a snooze, go for a bike ride, whatever. Computer programmers are cubicle employees, not considered important enough to be given nice workspaces. Dude. See previous comment. If you can’t get into a Top 14 law school or a top graduate business school, then public accounting probably provides a better career path than computer programming. Career path is one thing. Being happy with what I do in life is another. They don't have to be exclusive, but I'll tell you som
If you look forward to one day having your own private office, then computer programming sure isn’t the way to go.
Uhhh, I DO have my own office. Sounds like this "person" is just a bit jealous that he didn't have what it took to be a programmer. I, like many others on here, are not only proud to be a programmer, but don't give a rats as* what some whiner may have to say about it.
The computer programming industry within the United States is an industry with a shrinking number of jobs (because of outsourcing).
As stated before, the only companies who lean towards this outsourcing are the ones who are more worried about the bottom line that actually providing a quality product to their customers/clients.
If you can’t get into a Top 14 law school or a top graduate business school, then public accounting probably provides a better career path than computer programming.
Being a bean counter is better than being a programmer? What plane of reality does this person live in? Since when did being an accountant become more challenging than making things work with code (aka being a programmer). I wouldn't trade my career choice for anything, I am a 40 year old programmer, I get paid excellent money (and don't have to be a manager to get it) I work for an organization who takes more care of their IT department (ie great equipment, comfortable workplace, stress free (well as much as possible) work environment and more freedom) than they do the other departments in the organization.
" In the next millennium there are two kinds of business, those on the Internet and those out of business" Bill Gates "Be nice to nerds. Chances are you'll end up working for one." Bill Gates "Let's face it, the average computer user has the brain of a Spider Monkey." Bill Gates
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So hard, so cruel, so true: The short version: 10 Things About Computer Programming You May Not Agree With[^] The long version: Why a career in computer programming sucks[^]
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So hard, so cruel, so true: The short version: 10 Things About Computer Programming You May Not Agree With[^] The long version: Why a career in computer programming sucks[^]
Well I am 60. Been programming since the dawn of time. In machine code , Assembly language,COBOL, RPG, APL, FORTRAN, FORTH,BASIC,C, Java,and now .net in VB and C#. Tools are more fun. Job is still fun. I have my own office. I come and go as I please. I make good money..... Yeah it really sucks.
David Lane One World One People.
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Virtual Coder wrote:
The long version: Why a career in computer programming sucks
"But in computer programming, the old knowledge becomes completely obsolete and useless." I don't agree with that. Technologies come and go (though many tend to stick around longer than we might expect), but the underlying principles of sound software design have not changed. They may mature as we learn more and build upon the past, but rarely do they become completely obsolete and useless. So while it's vital to stay current with the latest technologies, it's more important to keep the bigger picture in focus: How can I apply what I've learned in the past to the present? What principles can I learn from the technology I'm using today that will help me tomorrow? Good ideas, practises, algorithms, etc., are independent of technology. Think of it as a kind of polymorphism. You have an idea you're trying to realize. The technology that implements that idea can vary or change, but the idea itself may remain sound for your entire lifetime.
As somebody rapidly heading towards the "60" age group, I feel that those articles are full of misconceptions. Sure, a lot of the technical information I've had to learn over the years has become obsolete, but as you said "How can I apply what I've learned in the past to the present?" and even more significantly "Good ideas, practises, algorithms, etc., are independent of technology". Developing good systems needs more than just knowledge of the latest languages, APIs etc., it also needs the skill and experience, and sometimes a few "old tricks". I work in a team with a fair number of recent graduates, as well as a whole range of ages, and although the younger guys might be keener they're still learning a lot of the skills they'll need to produce good, efficient and properly debugged code. We "more mature" team members can help them learn, and they're often quite amazed when one of us pulls some clever little trick out of the bag. Oh, and the day I stop wanting to learn new stuff is the day I'll be hanging up my flowchart template :) PS - I've tried the move up to management route and didn't enjoy it one bit, which is why I packed it in and went back to what I love doing.
There are three kinds of people in the world - those who can count and those who can't...
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Put it this way. The guy with 10 years C++ and 1 year C# is more likely to be a better developer than the guy with just 5 years C#. However, I've seen guys with supposedly 15 years experience being outshone by a guy just 2 years out of uni.
Upcoming events: * Glasgow: SQL Server 2005 - XML and XML Query Plans, Mock Objects, SQL Server Reporting Services... Never write for other people. Write for yourself, because you have a passion for it. -- Marc Clifton My website
Colin Angus Mackay wrote:
Put it this way. The guy with 10 years C++ and 1 year C# is more likely to be a better developer than the guy with just 5 years C#.
Yes but not if it is 10 years of C++ and 0 years of C#. When it comes to programming I understand that the longer you work in the field and understand the capabilities of the computer and the logic the better you are. BUT when a company needs a C# programmer that is a C# programmer the day they hire them and not a C++ programmer learning C# and all the .NET fixings then the C# guy would be better.
CleaKO
"Now, a man would have opened both gates, driven through and not bothered to close either gate." - Marc Clifton (The Lounge)
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Well I agree. I have to admit I've never met an older programmer in their fifties who wasn't a manager. Programming is largely a young person's profession. And one of the most important things is to keep moving and evoluting to up-to-date technologies. Better technologies usually mean faster development and less reinventing the wheel. Focus on the polish, not the basic features. Even if you are way behind, make a start.
Ben Glancy Software Developer Articad Ltd
:rose: Well then, meet one. Not only am I 57 years old, but a woman, no less! I'm not currently a manager, but have been in that position. I like programming and have never gotten burned out like everyone told me I would. I started programming on an IBM System 34 in 1979, raised two sons, took care of a terminally ill husband and went back to school as needed to stay up to date. I've been through a lot of life and being able to get "in the zone" with my job as a programmer has helped me during times when I just needed to make time seem to go faster. All in all, it's been great and I look forward to making at least another 10 years in some fashion... maybe part time at some point. Programming is like putting together a puzzle everyday. Frustrating and fun at the same time. I enjoy my job! To anyone who doesn't I say make a change... either in your job or your attitude. 2MileHill "Playing small does not serve the world." -Marianne Williamson-
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:rose: Well then, meet one. Not only am I 57 years old, but a woman, no less! I'm not currently a manager, but have been in that position. I like programming and have never gotten burned out like everyone told me I would. I started programming on an IBM System 34 in 1979, raised two sons, took care of a terminally ill husband and went back to school as needed to stay up to date. I've been through a lot of life and being able to get "in the zone" with my job as a programmer has helped me during times when I just needed to make time seem to go faster. All in all, it's been great and I look forward to making at least another 10 years in some fashion... maybe part time at some point. Programming is like putting together a puzzle everyday. Frustrating and fun at the same time. I enjoy my job! To anyone who doesn't I say make a change... either in your job or your attitude. 2MileHill "Playing small does not serve the world." -Marianne Williamson-
I stand told. I was busy being born and breastfed in 1979. But you're cheating because you've been a manager, so you have that in your profile. Something that sets you apart from the bog standard, which is what that guy was saying.
Ben Glancy Software Developer Articad Ltd