Why a career in computer programming sucks
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I am 74 years old, and having a ball programming VB.NET. I started with FORTRAN (all caps, of course), went through a dozen or more languages over the years (NEAT-3, anyone?). Still learning, still coming to work to try something new. The other day my son, a manager at a very high-tech military-supplying company, was discussing things with his buddies at lunch. Their company had just decided it was worth while to get a couple of their folks up to speed on Visual Studio and embedded Windows. He commented that it was surprising how his programming skills had all atrophied, while his old dad was already a generation ahead and pulling away. Love those embedded systems! JimT
You Go, Jim! What an inspiration! What a guy! :-D 2MileHill
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Colin Angus Mackay wrote:
learning new stuff.
It's great, if you can make time for it. But what really does my head in is how MS change the IDE so much from one version to the next (esp 2003-2005) AND they pretty much lock the IDE to the version of the .NET framework :mad:. Getting *NEW* functionality is great - but having to relear *existing* ways of doing stuff gets on my nerves. But then again, it's only once every 2-3 years that you have to take that leap.
"For fifty bucks I'd put my face in their soup and blow." - George Costanza
CP article: SmartPager - a Flickr-style pager control with go-to-page popup layer.
Ashley van Gerven wrote:
But what really does my head in is how MS change the IDE so much from one version to the next (esp 2003-2005)
:confused: The IDE didn't change that much. It was mostly cosmetic as far as I saw.
Ashley van Gerven wrote:
AND they pretty much lock the IDE to the version of the .NET framework
Not as of Orcas - You'll be able to developer .NET 1.0 through to 3.5 in Orcas.
Upcoming events: * Glasgow: SQL Server 2005 - XML and XML Query Plans, Mock Objects, SQL Server Reporting Services... Never write for other people. Write for yourself, because you have a passion for it. -- Marc Clifton My website
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I love it when all these younger programmers feel that that just because they where born in an era of more advanced technology, they are in fact more technologically savvy. The truth is programming is as much about, problem solving and dealing with people as it is with writing code. At 51, I enjoy the process, as much as the results.
Same here. "9. Computer programmers are cubicle employees, not considered important enough to be given nice workspaces." I'm having too much fun to notice my workspace. As long as the temperature is comfortable, I'm good to go. These "computer programming sucks" guys have some good points, but on the whole I'd have to say they are whiners, the type of person that is jealous at the new employee who has new PC with a chip that is 0.4 GHz faster than theirs.
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Well I agree. I have to admit I've never met an older programmer in their fifties who wasn't a manager. Programming is largely a young person's profession. And one of the most important things is to keep moving and evoluting to up-to-date technologies. Better technologies usually mean faster development and less reinventing the wheel. Focus on the polish, not the basic features. Even if you are way behind, make a start.
Ben Glancy Software Developer Articad Ltd
I am 53. I was the young hot-shot assembler/Fortran/C programmer. Also did the manager thing for 20 of those years along the way, but always kept programming. Then I had the bright idea that I could make 80-90% as much money just being a "Senior Programmer/Analyst" doing the fun stuff....programming, with only 30% of the headaches. So now I'm an "old" hot-shot C++(Unix)/C# .NET programmer. (I haven't stooped to Java, yet....we let our friends from other countries do that.) (to age bigots (Half Sigma), old does not mean COBOL and old does not mean "stuck") Meanwhile, this profession has afforded me the luxury of F-U money...I can retire any time I like. If tomorrow I decided I couldn't stand listening to my boss any more, I could just tell him "F-U", call it a career and go get an afternoon tee time. I'm not sure I would encourage any young person I know to go in this direction, A LOT has changed, but it's been a good ride. Joe
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Marc Clifton wrote:
What are you implying? You would like a sentence by sentence response to the longer one? Perhaps a dissertation? I'll get back to you after I get a research grant.
Heh - sorry. I just wanted to know what you thought about ideas such as :- In turn, Americans see an industry full of brown people speaking barely intelligible English, and this further lowers the industry’s prestige. Computer programming and IT in general is now seen as the foreigner’s industry and not a proper profession for upwardly mobile white Americans. I am only accurately describing the fact that the typical white American thinks negatively of a profession that's predominately non-white. I actually understand what the guy is talking about. But I am not sure if all white-Americans feel that way. A few months ago at the MVP summit, I was surprised to see that a large % of Microsoft employees were of Indian origin. There might be a bit of a social-integration issue if white-Americans feel put off by the sight of a large number of brown people working in a company (any company, not just Microsoft).
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com linkWe're all just jealous we're lacking melanin. :laugh: I think this guy is a voice for a small group. Most of the people I've worked with haven't cared about the ethnic diversity but rather revelled in it. My only concern has been when a manager tells me I should be more like the visa worker who doesn't question anything. Hence I become the nail that gets pounded down when confronting issues. But that's minor. My dad gave me the same line when I wanted to stop for lunch, but his mexican worker didn't complain when not stopping. Minor matter. But truth be told I think that collectively we're the richer for the experience of working with people from different countries. Last job it was 4 Indians, 2 Russians, 1 Vietnamese, 1 Romanian, 1 Greek, 1 Chinese, 1 Palestinean, 2 African Americans, and about 5 Anglo Americans. And it was probably one of the best groups of people I've worked with.
This statement was never false.
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So hard, so cruel, so true: The short version: 10 Things About Computer Programming You May Not Agree With[^] The long version: Why a career in computer programming sucks[^]
I can't believe someone would put so much thought and effort into determining why someone else's profession sucks. I wonder if he's a single guy who spends time explaining to his friends how much their girlfriends suck.
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>If you can’t get into a Top 14 law school or a top graduate business school, then public accounting probably provides a >better career path than computer Very much doubt it. After my degree, I started off as a software engineer. I quit the computer profession during the downturn in 2002. Retrained to be an Actuary.(An actuary is like an accountant but with harder exams, more money/respect and easier promotion in the financial world). After almost 4 years doing it I realised I was doing a painfully boring (yet stressful) job that was a bad fit for someone who liked science and computers. I have now changed back to being a software engineer and I must say I find the job A LOT more interesting. Who cares if it means I won't buy a new BMW. My friends and girlfriend even say I'm outwardly a happier person now that I'm doing a job I like again! >Computer programming is a low prestige profession. A lot of people are impressed when you tell them you do this, who cares if not everyone says "wow!". Besides, ALL Engineers have the same problem. People who work in factories drilling holes all day call themselves engineers! >As you get older, your desire to completely relearn everything decreases, so you are likely to succumb to the temptation of >staying with the familiar technology for too long. But this also keeps challenging you which prevents going stale.
I worked in Accounting and almost entered the actuarial field before deciding to move into programming. Accountants don't make all that much and it's a dwindling field. It turns out that a lot of reconciliations, forecasts, etc. that are currently being managed by people can be handled through, EGADS, software. And I agree with you, programming = fun, actuarial science = dullest, driest stuff on earth.
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So hard, so cruel, so true: The short version: 10 Things About Computer Programming You May Not Agree With[^] The long version: Why a career in computer programming sucks[^]
I don't see what he is saying as an insult to programmers. I enjoy programming, but I would have to agree that it would be nice if it were more respected, and understood. A set of industry wide standards about how IT should be ran would be very nice, as long as they were made to benefit the programmers. It does get kind of old hearing, "I know this wasn't in the original requirements, but it can't be that hard to change ___Enter change here____.":)
Ben
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led mike wrote:
Sounds like someone needs a hug
Or a kick in the balls! :omg: I'm not sure which.
Upcoming events: * Glasgow: SQL Server 2005 - XML and XML Query Plans, Mock Objects, SQL Server Reporting Services... Never write for other people. Write for yourself, because you have a passion for it. -- Marc Clifton My website
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There are points that are very much true: 1) getting older and still working like shit/young/mad donkey :mad: 2) the need to move up or be underemployed is every present danger :doh: I.T business is not like any other business it changes it self faster than the season some one wake up some day and tell the world he has created a website where people can make a shit-online and next day and world start to make shit... but hay do we already make the shit? :laugh: :laugh: Being a geek in non-geek communities/countries make the I.T workers more pissed off and non-satisfied because people don't understand what programmers do by sitting 12 to 18 hours a day on same chair :suss: :omg: :^)
--------------------------- Life is a game... with limited life line and unlimited power! http://www.idlsol.com
Farrukh_5 wrote:
I.T business is not like any other business it changes it self faster than the season
Don't you mean that IT changes faster than some people change their underware.:-D Of course I've met some people where that may actually take a few days. :laugh:
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Wow! What a cynical pile of crap.
Because of the temporary nature of the knowledge capital, computer programmers quickly reach a stage in their career when their old knowledge capital becomes worthless at the same rate as they acquire knew knowledge capital. Their total knowledge capital is no longer increasing, so neither does their salary increase. They have reached the dead end plateau of their career, and it happens after less than ten years in the field.
That is rubbish - I've been programming for 24 years now and my knowledge aquisition is growing faster than I actually need it. I have lots of spare capacity so in my spare time I'll be learning about stuff that I don't have any need for in work - just because I enjoy it.
Lawyers are still citing Blackstone’s Commentaries on the Laws of England which was completed in 1769. Now there’s an example of a profession where knowledge capital deteriorates at a very slow rate.
Laws aren't static, they get changed and updated all the time. A lawyer will be required to continue updating their knowledge continuously too. When I develop software I've been known to cite various things that go back much further than 1769. Some ideas that I've implemented go back over 2000 years.
Computer programming is a low prestige profession.
It depends on what you take out of it. I get all the prestige I need.
but foreignization best explains what’s happening in the computer programming industry... The other half of foreignization is the near abandonment of the domestic IT market to foreigners. This is a trend that is accelerated by the issuance of special H1-B visas that allow extra computer programmers to come here and take jobs away from American programmers.
Here is the real problem. The total number of university places in the USA have stays fairly static for the last 70 years. If you want to reduce outsourcing then educate yourselves and that won't happen until the opportunity is there. Compare that to Scotland. I live in a city with 3 good quality universities and there is another just 5 miles outside the city too. The city I used to live in has 3 universities. And there are another four between the 4 remaining cities too. Population 5 million. 12 Universities. That is 1 university per 417,000 of population. Not quite got the grades to get in to university. Pretty much each town has a college (or campus of a college). The
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I don't see what he is saying as an insult to programmers. I enjoy programming, but I would have to agree that it would be nice if it were more respected, and understood. A set of industry wide standards about how IT should be ran would be very nice, as long as they were made to benefit the programmers. It does get kind of old hearing, "I know this wasn't in the original requirements, but it can't be that hard to change ___Enter change here____.":)
Ben
I have read both articles. X| The only thing else I have to say about them is: 1) If you don't like programming. Then GET OUT of it. :| 2) Both articles sounded like they were written by a whiny little twit that if he can't have his own way then it must be all bad. :laugh: 3) As for the aging thing. The only way he won't age is if he dies right now. We all get older. I'm 52, and I just got done with some college courses in programming both VB.NET and C#. I've also have gotten some books on both and plan on trying to learn more. I figure that the last thing I'll ever learn while I'm alive will be what it feels like to die. :cool: BTW I can't stand whiners. P.S. - Your probally right about him makeing bad remarks on his friends (?????) girlfriends.
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Well I agree. I have to admit I've never met an older programmer in their fifties who wasn't a manager. Programming is largely a young person's profession. And one of the most important things is to keep moving and evoluting to up-to-date technologies. Better technologies usually mean faster development and less reinventing the wheel. Focus on the polish, not the basic features. Even if you are way behind, make a start.
Ben Glancy Software Developer Articad Ltd
Hi Ben, >> I have to admit I've never met an older programmer in their fifties who wasn't a manager. << Remember me in about 10 months because I'll be one of the programmers in the 50's that isn't a manager. >> Programming is largely a young person's profession. << Maybe so, but it doesn't HAVE to be. I do, however, feel like a babysitter around here some days! >> And one of the most important things is to keep moving and evoluting to up-to-date technologies. Better technologies usually mean faster development and less reinventing the wheel. Focus on the polish, not the basic features. << Agreed that you need to stay up-to-date however focusing on the "polish" while "basic features" languish is one of the problems in my shop - one that I'm working hard to FIX. Part of the problem with our product's quality is because of these young smart-ass developers who THINK they are smarter than us "old fogeys" who have been doing this for 30 years. Yeah, there's new technology - but problem-solving and elegance of design is a learned thing. Throw all this GUI technology (IDE's etc.) and you encourage marginally talented developers to develp things they have no business doing without more experience. Need a new feature? Just go find some new, cool plug-in widget and you're done, right? Not by a LONG shot. >> Even if you are way behind, make a start. Completely agree here. -CB :)
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led mike wrote:
Sounds like someone needs a hug
Or a kick in the balls! :omg: I'm not sure which.
Upcoming events: * Glasgow: SQL Server 2005 - XML and XML Query Plans, Mock Objects, SQL Server Reporting Services... Never write for other people. Write for yourself, because you have a passion for it. -- Marc Clifton My website
:)
Vasudevan Deepak Kumar Personal Homepage Tech Gossips
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That guy sounds like a real jerk.
CleaKO
"Now, a man would have opened both gates, driven through and not bothered to close either gate." - Marc Clifton (The Lounge)
:)
Vasudevan Deepak Kumar Personal Homepage Tech Gossips
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Hi Ben, >> I have to admit I've never met an older programmer in their fifties who wasn't a manager. << Remember me in about 10 months because I'll be one of the programmers in the 50's that isn't a manager. >> Programming is largely a young person's profession. << Maybe so, but it doesn't HAVE to be. I do, however, feel like a babysitter around here some days! >> And one of the most important things is to keep moving and evoluting to up-to-date technologies. Better technologies usually mean faster development and less reinventing the wheel. Focus on the polish, not the basic features. << Agreed that you need to stay up-to-date however focusing on the "polish" while "basic features" languish is one of the problems in my shop - one that I'm working hard to FIX. Part of the problem with our product's quality is because of these young smart-ass developers who THINK they are smarter than us "old fogeys" who have been doing this for 30 years. Yeah, there's new technology - but problem-solving and elegance of design is a learned thing. Throw all this GUI technology (IDE's etc.) and you encourage marginally talented developers to develp things they have no business doing without more experience. Need a new feature? Just go find some new, cool plug-in widget and you're done, right? Not by a LONG shot. >> Even if you are way behind, make a start. Completely agree here. -CB :)
Well I've been programming commercially for about 6-7 years, and one thing in that short(?) time that I can say for sure is that if you can pass the buck to a reasonably reliable third party specialist library then a 'cool plugin widget' is a good idea. However you're probably talking about if the code base currently has problems, and could do with a boost from the ground up... instead of mid air above rickety planks, where adding a cool widget is merely anchoring the bad code base for a bit longer.
Ben Glancy Software Developer Articad Ltd
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Well I've been programming commercially for about 6-7 years, and one thing in that short(?) time that I can say for sure is that if you can pass the buck to a reasonably reliable third party specialist library then a 'cool plugin widget' is a good idea. However you're probably talking about if the code base currently has problems, and could do with a boost from the ground up... instead of mid air above rickety planks, where adding a cool widget is merely anchoring the bad code base for a bit longer.
Ben Glancy Software Developer Articad Ltd
Yup, that's what I'm talking about all right. ;) I'm not suggesting that you should write code when a good custom-control would do the job - I'm talking about the laziness that tends to set in sometimes in development shops where the answer is always to plug in some new technology (whether stable or not) just because it's "cool". Migration of a code base should be done carefully (particularly when large and complex) so existing functionality doesn't get broken. That's the basic battle we've been fighting here lately. Our parent company became a multi-billion dollar company by offering a software product that they migrate gradually - they add features of course but not just to "close a deal" - I.E. a "one off". We're trying to get out of the "one off" mode in our operation and just stabilize what we have, THEN we can add features again - but in a controlled manner. -CB :)
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Yup, that's what I'm talking about all right. ;) I'm not suggesting that you should write code when a good custom-control would do the job - I'm talking about the laziness that tends to set in sometimes in development shops where the answer is always to plug in some new technology (whether stable or not) just because it's "cool". Migration of a code base should be done carefully (particularly when large and complex) so existing functionality doesn't get broken. That's the basic battle we've been fighting here lately. Our parent company became a multi-billion dollar company by offering a software product that they migrate gradually - they add features of course but not just to "close a deal" - I.E. a "one off". We're trying to get out of the "one off" mode in our operation and just stabilize what we have, THEN we can add features again - but in a controlled manner. -CB :)
Yeah I'm with you on that one. Probably most projects in the world don't have ideal code bases. But taking a few steps back in a problem area with every programming task to see how this could best serve evolution and future proofing would not hurt. I feel your frustration with the cool widgets, a nice clean, sparkling code base is sooo much more scaleable than a bad one. And putting in whizzy features on top of it increases reliance on the black stuff. Pun intended.
Ben Glancy Software Developer Articad Ltd
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So hard, so cruel, so true: The short version: 10 Things About Computer Programming You May Not Agree With[^] The long version: Why a career in computer programming sucks[^]
yea.. scary and probably true but hopefully new things will open up with computers where having a know how about programming will help. if not, i'll just have to find a new career accounting sounds nice, good pay not much hassle just have to have your head in the books and know how to play them. but i know a few accountances and that field looks to be filling up quickly. no dout computer programmers arent treasured as much as they used to be... anyone know of a new field thats opening where i can get paid loads let me know. in the comments: Jamie wrote (2) It’s been proven that the majority of women rated ‘Angelina Jolie’ or above, secretly fantasize about Computer Science majors. :-D LOL :-D
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That guy sounds like a real jerk.
CleaKO
"Now, a man would have opened both gates, driven through and not bothered to close either gate." - Marc Clifton (The Lounge)
I was considering moving into patent law, but engineering and computer programming has treated me very well for the last 15 years. I personally think it's very prestigious, and there will always be jobs for people who are willing to learn new skills. If you're not, then that's a whole different problem.
EE, patent lawyer wannabe