Microsoft certification
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Luke, I am a MCAD. My certification cost me almost $5k (paid for it myself through New Horizons). I got my cert in April 2005. By the end of 2005, MS was already working on the new certifications. The ink wasn't hardly dry on my cert and they were putting out the new MCPD certifications. Honestly, the only thing my certification has been good for is getting past HR interviewers. I was pushed to the top of the interview pile when up against non-certified applicants. Some companies have accepted my certification and we completely bypassed the interview process! However, once you get on site, they expect you to be GOOD at what they hired you for! Other companies couldn't have cared less about the cert and I have even had other companies tell me that "we can't afford you!" and not give me the chance to hear their offer!! I was going to go for my MCPD Web and MCPD Win, but with VS2008 coming out, you just KNOW that there's going to me another round of certifications coming with that. I don't know about you, but even being a Sr. Programmer Analyst, I don't make the kind of money that it would take me to keep up with Microsoft's Certification program. I miss the days when a certification was good more than 18 months! Just my opinion!
JamminJimE Microsoft Certified Application Developer
When you say the cert cost $5K, what are you paying for? Just curious, Steve
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Hi guys, I was going to do MCAD, but since net2.0 and now nearly 3.0 is out now its better to do them. But the scheme changed a little bit now, i used to know it as first you do MCAD and then advance to MCSD. Now there's MCPD for web development, Mcpd for application development, is there one for both? MCTS in .net framework 2.0 MCTS in sql server 2005 I am a little confused, can any one help me? Thanks Luke
Hey Luke; A little history here. First there was MCSD and MCSE, this was back in the VB6 days! People got MCSDs by basically writing the exams after they'd been working with the product for a few years. These papers fast became worthless b/c they did not demonstrate any extra knowledge. Next came the .NET certs. They decided to break these certs out into different levels: MCAD.NET then MCSD.NET; MCSA (Systems Admin) and MCSE (Systems Engineer). Kind of a rookie/experienced mix. They classified MCP has anyone who had passed a prerequisite for any of these exams and then they added MCDBA. The MCDBA is kind of a frankenstein, it has one SQL Server course (same one MCSD and MCSE took) with a little OS and a little programming. The new versions of MCAD and MCSD are MCTS (Technology Specialist) and MCPD (Professional Developer). The TS actually has like 17 different aspects, but they're each kind of 1 or 2 exams. The MCPD is like a group of 4-6 exams with a focus (Web/Windows/Distributed). There are upgrade exams everywhere, so it's not like getting MCAD.NET is "bad" or "useless", 'cause the point of taking the exam is to learn this stuff. As to their value, this is a hairy issue. I know that personally, my MCP certs have helped me get better jobs, especially with Microsoft Certified partners. But this is not always the case. The truth is, you need to prove lots of things when applying for a new job or trying to get promoted in your current job. You need to demonstrate experience and knowledge and competency and success and some inner drive to learn. If you've delivered 5 ASP.NET projects, then you've probably already demonstrated these things. What the certification does is that it demonstrates *some* of these aspects all by itself. You demonstrate that you want to learn, and that you know how certain technologies work. Even if you work with .NET every day, taking one of these courses will drastically increase your understanding of the technology. So when you're in the interview, this is how you have to sell the cert. (If people discount the cert constantly, you can always offer them a $100+exam fee if they can pass it tomorrow :)) But remember that not everyone even regards or respects the cert, so it's not usually worth some type of auto-pay-raise. However, nobody in their right mind will pay you less/i> for having certifications. Knowing more will make you more productive, but you do this simply by studying, it's not like you need the cert. The cert is really just the means to
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When you say the cert cost $5K, what are you paying for? Just curious, Steve
I actually paid to go through the classes. When I was coding VB6, I did it on my own and avoided the COM Interop stuff and most of my code was inline. I didn't use classes for anything. Obviously, this was not very complicated code. I decided to go through the FULL VB.NET training class, not just a bootcamp. It paid for all of the classes, the books from Microsoft ($175 each!), and 2 cert tests PER area. My MCAD was in all of .NET, not like it is now and broken up. My cert required Winforms, Web, and Server components. I was pre-paid for 2 certification tests in each area. To me, it was more than worth it. I tried reading the MCAD/MCSD Prep course books from Microsoft and it wasn't making any sense. I could answer the test questions, but I didn't understand why you would do what they were doing. The classes were scheduled over 3 months, I took another 1.5 months to study while working full time, and took my tests about 3 weeks apart. The cert was free, but the tests, classes, and books are really what cost me $5k.
JamminJimE Microsoft Certified Application Developer
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Hi guys, I was going to do MCAD, but since net2.0 and now nearly 3.0 is out now its better to do them. But the scheme changed a little bit now, i used to know it as first you do MCAD and then advance to MCSD. Now there's MCPD for web development, Mcpd for application development, is there one for both? MCTS in .net framework 2.0 MCTS in sql server 2005 I am a little confused, can any one help me? Thanks Luke
Take the latest one you can. Just don't make the mistake of assuming that you will learn any practical skills from the certification courses. They teach knowledge, not skill. My only issue with certification is that people think it indicates ability to do a particular job, when all it means is the person has the basic information to do the job. It's entirely possible, and in my experience likely, that they don't know how to use that information if they don't have practical experience along with the certifications. I haven't read the other responses yet, but if I'm the only one saying this, I'll be really surprised. If you are a person with lots of experience, I wouldn't bother with any of these certifications. Not having them hasn't really hurt me. If someone wants a certification, I usually tell them what I just told you. I have had people go ahead and ask me to do a test at that point, but since I have the experience, the tests aren't usually that hard. Sometimes they are though, and that leads me to another issue worth mentioning. 90% of questions on certification tests cover material you will never use in real life, and an understanding of that material is specialized knowledge that will not apply to anything in the future. I would like to see a SQL Server exam that has a correct balance of actual, real-life likely situations, and maybe 10% arcane memorizations that you just need to know. That's why I put little value on certifications and would rather have someone actually demonstrate their ability right in front of me. Someone who can sit down at a computer in my office and build a stored proc or a couple tables or something... that's worth all the certifications in the world. I want results, and certifications are no proof that I'm going to get that. I mean, In 20 years of doing this, I've built a parameterized view ONE TIME, and it turned out to be the wrong implementation anyway... yet there's 10-15 questions about parameterized views on the test? WTF?! Who cares about that?
"Quality Software since 1983!"
http://www.smoothjazzy.com/ - see the "Programming" section for freeware tools and articles. -
Hi guys, I was going to do MCAD, but since net2.0 and now nearly 3.0 is out now its better to do them. But the scheme changed a little bit now, i used to know it as first you do MCAD and then advance to MCSD. Now there's MCPD for web development, Mcpd for application development, is there one for both? MCTS in .net framework 2.0 MCTS in sql server 2005 I am a little confused, can any one help me? Thanks Luke
Yes, Microsoft makes money from the certs... but really, is this an arguement against them? MS as big as they are for this to be a big revenue source for them, I doubt it. Yes, it helps with recruiters and companies to get you in the door. From there you are on your own. All interviews I have had with an assesment test had questions that were very similar to the questions on the test, so in that aspect it helps to take the test and brushen up your testing skills. Some people test well, others dont. Just like some people can memorize things well and others are better at grasping concepts. I am the latter, my memory is shot (as well as it should be with all the tools, upgrades and different languages over the years) but I can grasp concepts and problem solve well. College degrees, they do help but I can tell you that I have been in positions where my boss or counterparts had degress and still were way behind me in the current tools/languages. Although the school system has been getting better teaching computer science, the real world is moving lightening fast before teachers can get caught up. My best friend no college degree, MSCE and making 120k year. Me no college degree MCP(missing one for MCAD) 94k yr. I will tell you it was the cert that backed up everything that was coming out of my mouth during the interview and passed their silly assesment test. It is my experience and my contstant thirst to learn more throughout the years that backs up my work. Flip side of the coin if you didn't have to come up and were blessed to go through college and get a college degree more power to you, you may not need a cert. but remeber in our field there is contstant learning. ~Mann.
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You absolutely nailed it on the head about this being a revenue generation engine for Microsoft. I spoke with the head of the program at Microsoft at TechEd and you can bet that his career viability was about separating as many people from their money as possible. That said, he knew very well that he had to do whatever he could to prop-up the value of the certifications. They do this by trying to keep the barrier to entry not too low (not the same as high). This is a conflicting constraint with respect to maximizing revenue. Certifications are tertiary, at best, behind College Degrees and Real World Experience.
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Hi guys, I was going to do MCAD, but since net2.0 and now nearly 3.0 is out now its better to do them. But the scheme changed a little bit now, i used to know it as first you do MCAD and then advance to MCSD. Now there's MCPD for web development, Mcpd for application development, is there one for both? MCTS in .net framework 2.0 MCTS in sql server 2005 I am a little confused, can any one help me? Thanks Luke
The certifications are supposed to provide proof that the person has the knowledge about the subject. That sadly does not prove how good a tech the person is. Example a company I worked for sent our lead tech to a Novell school and he came back with the software and the cert. But I had to install the product because he couldn't get it to work. There are a lot of people that are professional students and can pass a test but can't function in the real world. Sort of a File and Forget mental ability. I'll take someone that I get a good feel for and can pass my tests. In fact I'll go so far as to say that a person with the cert has a harder time getting the job than the person that is self taught. Why? because I expect more out of the guy with the cert.
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Hi guys, I was going to do MCAD, but since net2.0 and now nearly 3.0 is out now its better to do them. But the scheme changed a little bit now, i used to know it as first you do MCAD and then advance to MCSD. Now there's MCPD for web development, Mcpd for application development, is there one for both? MCTS in .net framework 2.0 MCTS in sql server 2005 I am a little confused, can any one help me? Thanks Luke
Hi there, The generic certification process is flawed by its very nature. It means you can memorize a set of patterns (text/code/answers/what-have-you), but it does not illustrate: - your ability to come up with solutions to real-world problems - you have communication skills (written/oral) - your attitude towards your team/colleagues Our company's philosophy's always been - and I happen to agree with it :) : - Demonstrate real-world experience - Have a good personality / attitude - Be pro-active rather than re-active - Have good communication skills, especially writing We found that employees fitting the above, are generally very valuable employees. For what it's worth... Joseph B. Senior .Net Architect for the past 3 years Senior Consultant / Senior Application Architect for the past 10 years Never had ANY certifications, only been asked about them once
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hhmmm, so just out of curiosity are you putting College Degrees ahead of Real World Experiece?
The pleasure's been all mine...and in the end, that's all that's really important.
Hmm. I wasn't thinking about the relative value of College vs. Experience. I think that is really open for debate. I see them as complementary. College can be thought of as a barrier to entry. You input time, effort and energy and you receive expanded options on the other side. It is very hard to argue that going to college gives one fewer options. With expanded options, we are more likely to gain real world experience that is to our liking because we gravitate toward things we like, and with more options, well, you should see the logic...
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I actually paid to go through the classes. When I was coding VB6, I did it on my own and avoided the COM Interop stuff and most of my code was inline. I didn't use classes for anything. Obviously, this was not very complicated code. I decided to go through the FULL VB.NET training class, not just a bootcamp. It paid for all of the classes, the books from Microsoft ($175 each!), and 2 cert tests PER area. My MCAD was in all of .NET, not like it is now and broken up. My cert required Winforms, Web, and Server components. I was pre-paid for 2 certification tests in each area. To me, it was more than worth it. I tried reading the MCAD/MCSD Prep course books from Microsoft and it wasn't making any sense. I could answer the test questions, but I didn't understand why you would do what they were doing. The classes were scheduled over 3 months, I took another 1.5 months to study while working full time, and took my tests about 3 weeks apart. The cert was free, but the tests, classes, and books are really what cost me $5k.
JamminJimE Microsoft Certified Application Developer
Thanks for the reply. Probably not a bad idea -- I've done a lot of .NET but I know there are a lot of holes in my knowledge. Steve
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You absolutely nailed it on the head about this being a revenue generation engine for Microsoft. I spoke with the head of the program at Microsoft at TechEd and you can bet that his career viability was about separating as many people from their money as possible. That said, he knew very well that he had to do whatever he could to prop-up the value of the certifications. They do this by trying to keep the barrier to entry not too low (not the same as high). This is a conflicting constraint with respect to maximizing revenue. Certifications are tertiary, at best, behind College Degrees and Real World Experience.
My son just finished a 4 year degree study on computer science with both hardware and software backgrounds and when he went for interview with Comcast and Airtran among others, he was asked "what Microsoft certifications do YOU have?" They never did ask “what king of degree do YOU have? So I guess Microsoft certifications are useless unless you are trying to do Linux!….. :confused:
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Hi guys, I was going to do MCAD, but since net2.0 and now nearly 3.0 is out now its better to do them. But the scheme changed a little bit now, i used to know it as first you do MCAD and then advance to MCSD. Now there's MCPD for web development, Mcpd for application development, is there one for both? MCTS in .net framework 2.0 MCTS in sql server 2005 I am a little confused, can any one help me? Thanks Luke
I am a MCAD. I am very frustrated that MS uses different titles for different .Net framework. If the title changes so frequently, I wonder whether non-IT people really know what they refer to. A BSc degree is always a BSc degree even the syllabus of the IT course in the university is changed! If MS wants people treat its certificate as a valuable asset, it must keep the title as constant as possible. Like, BSc(computer studies) -> MSc(computer studies), it can use MCAD(.Net 2.0) -> MCSD (.Net 2.0).
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Hi guys, I was going to do MCAD, but since net2.0 and now nearly 3.0 is out now its better to do them. But the scheme changed a little bit now, i used to know it as first you do MCAD and then advance to MCSD. Now there's MCPD for web development, Mcpd for application development, is there one for both? MCTS in .net framework 2.0 MCTS in sql server 2005 I am a little confused, can any one help me? Thanks Luke
The thing is this. All i have is 2 diplomas in IT and software, but i have 2.5 years expierence. I know its not much but im still fresh out of college hehe. Im considering MS Certification because I would like to get a BSC in IT here in malta, but they dont offer part-time studying in that course, so if i take im forced to get out of my job. Anyways my point is, certianly during my work period, i learnt and obviously will learn alot, Even with time u can see ur coding style change. So i figured out, if i continue like this, getting very good expierence, and get certified, it would help me more in my career. Plus the certification is meant to study more knowledge of the technology, not give you problem solving skill like one of you guys said. That comes with practice and brain storming. So Good Expierence + Cert would boost my career and knowledge or atleast i think so. Thanks for the help luke
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I believe the poor man's position, and I mean poor man as *clueless* about tech or not enough time to do it right, will require *some* certification. Whether this is a degree or cert doesn't matter to them. It is an objective third party evaluation. Anyone who thinks it qualifies a candidate for inclusion in the interview or hiring process is the same person hiring those people (we all have them) who say they are an expert programmer, yet aren't. Those people wallow in their self-delusion. My answer to the original poser of the question is: If you want to test yourself, then get certified. It depends on the company whether you really need that. Larger companies may pay to get you certified or a college degree as long as its in the career field you are in. All monies they contribute are tax exempt, then you pay nothing (almost) out of pocket. The one person's Microsoft Gold dealership would require you to be certified because they need a certain number/percentage of employees with specific certs. If you don't have the money for the cert, don't go for it, but utilize the Internet to test your skills. Also go through all the topics of the cert and make sure you personally research and try to apply the research on various platforms: 2K, XP, Vista. Then you are ready for cert and it becomes an academic "when I have money" problem, not a technical one. Remember your target market and ask: "Do they know enough about tech to not just require a cert to talk to me?" -T-
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Not at any place most programmers would want to work at though. Anyone who has ever had to hire a programmer or computer tech knows just how much certification blows. I *always* found the best candidates were the ones that were *not* certified.
"110%" - it's the new 70%
I cant say you're wrong, cause you're not. But what you said was from a "Hiring" perspective, not a "To be hired" perspective. And from a "to be hired" perspective I have to add that all employers are not so well informed and clear-sighted as you John. :) I've seen it happen to many times not to say that some companies have people that at least gives you an interview because of what certificates and other "shiny" stuff you have on paper. So from your perpective John, I'm 100% with you. But from the posters perspective: It will very, very seldom hurt to have the certificates and now and then you are able to fool someone as well. But then again it might very well be someone at a place most programmers would not want to work at though (quoted you there John). :)
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MajorTom123 wrote:
utilize the Internet to test your skills
:-D Dumb question #1: Where would you look on the internet for the skills test? :confused:
In general there are web sites setup that give you the basics for free and in depth for money. There are also people who have taken them and do a brain dump (search for that term). What I have done is download the areas of testing and do a web search for that. However, I will do a quick search now and get back to you. I hope Google is ok for you, here is a link. "Only" 5 million entries ;-) http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=free+certification+study+test&btnG=Google+Search Search term (look in the link) was Free certification study test There are exam guides, practice tests, etc... best wishes.
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Hmm. I wasn't thinking about the relative value of College vs. Experience. I think that is really open for debate. I see them as complementary. College can be thought of as a barrier to entry. You input time, effort and energy and you receive expanded options on the other side. It is very hard to argue that going to college gives one fewer options. With expanded options, we are more likely to gain real world experience that is to our liking because we gravitate toward things we like, and with more options, well, you should see the logic...
Great answer and I totally agree. I only ask because you said certs were 'tertiary', it sorted of implied to me that one and two were ordered. Clearly I read too much :-)
The pleasure's been all mine...and in the end, that's all that's really important.
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Interesting that all the comments about "who needs a certification" comes from people that obviously don't have any. Are you guys jealous? Never wanted to invest in your knowledge? Everything these days is a "money milking machine", including "corporate starbacks". Stop complaining about how others succeeded and do whatever fits you and your plans for the future. Either way, real life experience is always at the top - but when you don't have that (either because you are a newcomer or looking to "switch"), technical certifications are ALWAYS more appreciated (with ANY company) than a college/university degree from the simple reason that those put you a spot to do your work straight away - not the same with the useless theory stuff you learn at the university. If you can get a job without any certs good for you - but then look at the size of the company and the role of your work - unless you want to remain a pity programmer all your life, at some stage you'll need something to climb up the role steps... Just my $.02 .leON.
Your comments are myopic. I have consulted at organizations as small as 2 people up to General Electric here in cleveland. I have no degree, and no certs. I currently work for Sherwin-Williams. There are only 33,000 employees in the company and $8 Billion in revenue. My programs are in all 3000+ stores. If my program fails, then the company loses a lot of revenue. When you are ready to leave high school and get some real world experience, leave a nice comment on the board, otherwise, just read for a while.
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Your comments are myopic. I have consulted at organizations as small as 2 people up to General Electric here in cleveland. I have no degree, and no certs. I currently work for Sherwin-Williams. There are only 33,000 employees in the company and $8 Billion in revenue. My programs are in all 3000+ stores. If my program fails, then the company loses a lot of revenue. When you are ready to leave high school and get some real world experience, leave a nice comment on the board, otherwise, just read for a while.
MajorTom123 wrote:
Your comments are myopic.
Why do you feel my comments are myopic? To which part don't you agree? I'd rather have constructive comments than pathetic ones...
MajorTom123 wrote:
I have no degree, and no certs.
Based on your comments it's easy to tell you don't have any degree nor cert, and that might be the quality of consultation you gave your clients. I work for a company 8 times the size of the company you currently work for (with a bigger revenue than that per quarter), and that still doesn't change the fact that you have to prove your ability - either by real-life experience or degree/cert (as originally mentioned in my comment). I am SURE you didn't apply for work at Sherwin-Williams as a novice and actually already had "some" experience... That was exactly my point!
MajorTom123 wrote:
My programs are in all 3000+ stores
I guess you are doing some kind of programming job. That explains why you worry about "program fails", and shows exactly my point - quoting from my original comment: "unless you want to remain a pity programmer all your life, at some stage you'll need something to climb up the role steps..." So obviously, your lack of degree/cert or whatever experience you think you have got you in reality a programmer job, which I'll remind you is still considered an entry job in the IT world.
MajorTom123 wrote:
When you are ready to leave high school and get some real world experience
Don't see why you think you can patronize me, after all based on your comments you fit exactly my scenario - a pity programmer. I feel sorry for you and the company you work for, obviously you didn't get my point in the first place. Don't see why you've decided to get down to a personal level, after all you don't even know me, but maybe based on your comment you are the one still in high-school? Or maybe, even pre-school when the insecure kids were pushing around the smart kids to make themselves feel better... Either way, next time you reply to someone's comment make sure you know what you are talking about, otherwise I'll suggest YOU to stick around and "just read for a while", you might learn something new. Keep the flaming at other message boards, this one is a serious one. .leON.
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MajorTom123 wrote:
Your comments are myopic.
Why do you feel my comments are myopic? To which part don't you agree? I'd rather have constructive comments than pathetic ones...
MajorTom123 wrote:
I have no degree, and no certs.
Based on your comments it's easy to tell you don't have any degree nor cert, and that might be the quality of consultation you gave your clients. I work for a company 8 times the size of the company you currently work for (with a bigger revenue than that per quarter), and that still doesn't change the fact that you have to prove your ability - either by real-life experience or degree/cert (as originally mentioned in my comment). I am SURE you didn't apply for work at Sherwin-Williams as a novice and actually already had "some" experience... That was exactly my point!
MajorTom123 wrote:
My programs are in all 3000+ stores
I guess you are doing some kind of programming job. That explains why you worry about "program fails", and shows exactly my point - quoting from my original comment: "unless you want to remain a pity programmer all your life, at some stage you'll need something to climb up the role steps..." So obviously, your lack of degree/cert or whatever experience you think you have got you in reality a programmer job, which I'll remind you is still considered an entry job in the IT world.
MajorTom123 wrote:
When you are ready to leave high school and get some real world experience
Don't see why you think you can patronize me, after all based on your comments you fit exactly my scenario - a pity programmer. I feel sorry for you and the company you work for, obviously you didn't get my point in the first place. Don't see why you've decided to get down to a personal level, after all you don't even know me, but maybe based on your comment you are the one still in high-school? Or maybe, even pre-school when the insecure kids were pushing around the smart kids to make themselves feel better... Either way, next time you reply to someone's comment make sure you know what you are talking about, otherwise I'll suggest YOU to stick around and "just read for a while", you might learn something new. Keep the flaming at other message boards, this one is a serious one. .leON.
English obviously is not your strong suit. Take a grammar course. Maybe ask your English teacher. I wasn't the one being personal. You were. Looks like I hit a nerve here. Do you get one of those "certify in a week" certifications? Don't need to know anything, but you got a cert because you could remember what they told you in order to pass a test. Hmmm. Sounds like it.