Microsoft certification
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You absolutely nailed it on the head about this being a revenue generation engine for Microsoft. I spoke with the head of the program at Microsoft at TechEd and you can bet that his career viability was about separating as many people from their money as possible. That said, he knew very well that he had to do whatever he could to prop-up the value of the certifications. They do this by trying to keep the barrier to entry not too low (not the same as high). This is a conflicting constraint with respect to maximizing revenue. Certifications are tertiary, at best, behind College Degrees and Real World Experience.
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Hi guys, I was going to do MCAD, but since net2.0 and now nearly 3.0 is out now its better to do them. But the scheme changed a little bit now, i used to know it as first you do MCAD and then advance to MCSD. Now there's MCPD for web development, Mcpd for application development, is there one for both? MCTS in .net framework 2.0 MCTS in sql server 2005 I am a little confused, can any one help me? Thanks Luke
The certifications are supposed to provide proof that the person has the knowledge about the subject. That sadly does not prove how good a tech the person is. Example a company I worked for sent our lead tech to a Novell school and he came back with the software and the cert. But I had to install the product because he couldn't get it to work. There are a lot of people that are professional students and can pass a test but can't function in the real world. Sort of a File and Forget mental ability. I'll take someone that I get a good feel for and can pass my tests. In fact I'll go so far as to say that a person with the cert has a harder time getting the job than the person that is self taught. Why? because I expect more out of the guy with the cert.
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Hi guys, I was going to do MCAD, but since net2.0 and now nearly 3.0 is out now its better to do them. But the scheme changed a little bit now, i used to know it as first you do MCAD and then advance to MCSD. Now there's MCPD for web development, Mcpd for application development, is there one for both? MCTS in .net framework 2.0 MCTS in sql server 2005 I am a little confused, can any one help me? Thanks Luke
Hi there, The generic certification process is flawed by its very nature. It means you can memorize a set of patterns (text/code/answers/what-have-you), but it does not illustrate: - your ability to come up with solutions to real-world problems - you have communication skills (written/oral) - your attitude towards your team/colleagues Our company's philosophy's always been - and I happen to agree with it :) : - Demonstrate real-world experience - Have a good personality / attitude - Be pro-active rather than re-active - Have good communication skills, especially writing We found that employees fitting the above, are generally very valuable employees. For what it's worth... Joseph B. Senior .Net Architect for the past 3 years Senior Consultant / Senior Application Architect for the past 10 years Never had ANY certifications, only been asked about them once
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hhmmm, so just out of curiosity are you putting College Degrees ahead of Real World Experiece?
The pleasure's been all mine...and in the end, that's all that's really important.
Hmm. I wasn't thinking about the relative value of College vs. Experience. I think that is really open for debate. I see them as complementary. College can be thought of as a barrier to entry. You input time, effort and energy and you receive expanded options on the other side. It is very hard to argue that going to college gives one fewer options. With expanded options, we are more likely to gain real world experience that is to our liking because we gravitate toward things we like, and with more options, well, you should see the logic...
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I actually paid to go through the classes. When I was coding VB6, I did it on my own and avoided the COM Interop stuff and most of my code was inline. I didn't use classes for anything. Obviously, this was not very complicated code. I decided to go through the FULL VB.NET training class, not just a bootcamp. It paid for all of the classes, the books from Microsoft ($175 each!), and 2 cert tests PER area. My MCAD was in all of .NET, not like it is now and broken up. My cert required Winforms, Web, and Server components. I was pre-paid for 2 certification tests in each area. To me, it was more than worth it. I tried reading the MCAD/MCSD Prep course books from Microsoft and it wasn't making any sense. I could answer the test questions, but I didn't understand why you would do what they were doing. The classes were scheduled over 3 months, I took another 1.5 months to study while working full time, and took my tests about 3 weeks apart. The cert was free, but the tests, classes, and books are really what cost me $5k.
JamminJimE Microsoft Certified Application Developer
Thanks for the reply. Probably not a bad idea -- I've done a lot of .NET but I know there are a lot of holes in my knowledge. Steve
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You absolutely nailed it on the head about this being a revenue generation engine for Microsoft. I spoke with the head of the program at Microsoft at TechEd and you can bet that his career viability was about separating as many people from their money as possible. That said, he knew very well that he had to do whatever he could to prop-up the value of the certifications. They do this by trying to keep the barrier to entry not too low (not the same as high). This is a conflicting constraint with respect to maximizing revenue. Certifications are tertiary, at best, behind College Degrees and Real World Experience.
My son just finished a 4 year degree study on computer science with both hardware and software backgrounds and when he went for interview with Comcast and Airtran among others, he was asked "what Microsoft certifications do YOU have?" They never did ask “what king of degree do YOU have? So I guess Microsoft certifications are useless unless you are trying to do Linux!….. :confused:
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Hi guys, I was going to do MCAD, but since net2.0 and now nearly 3.0 is out now its better to do them. But the scheme changed a little bit now, i used to know it as first you do MCAD and then advance to MCSD. Now there's MCPD for web development, Mcpd for application development, is there one for both? MCTS in .net framework 2.0 MCTS in sql server 2005 I am a little confused, can any one help me? Thanks Luke
I am a MCAD. I am very frustrated that MS uses different titles for different .Net framework. If the title changes so frequently, I wonder whether non-IT people really know what they refer to. A BSc degree is always a BSc degree even the syllabus of the IT course in the university is changed! If MS wants people treat its certificate as a valuable asset, it must keep the title as constant as possible. Like, BSc(computer studies) -> MSc(computer studies), it can use MCAD(.Net 2.0) -> MCSD (.Net 2.0).
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Hi guys, I was going to do MCAD, but since net2.0 and now nearly 3.0 is out now its better to do them. But the scheme changed a little bit now, i used to know it as first you do MCAD and then advance to MCSD. Now there's MCPD for web development, Mcpd for application development, is there one for both? MCTS in .net framework 2.0 MCTS in sql server 2005 I am a little confused, can any one help me? Thanks Luke
The thing is this. All i have is 2 diplomas in IT and software, but i have 2.5 years expierence. I know its not much but im still fresh out of college hehe. Im considering MS Certification because I would like to get a BSC in IT here in malta, but they dont offer part-time studying in that course, so if i take im forced to get out of my job. Anyways my point is, certianly during my work period, i learnt and obviously will learn alot, Even with time u can see ur coding style change. So i figured out, if i continue like this, getting very good expierence, and get certified, it would help me more in my career. Plus the certification is meant to study more knowledge of the technology, not give you problem solving skill like one of you guys said. That comes with practice and brain storming. So Good Expierence + Cert would boost my career and knowledge or atleast i think so. Thanks for the help luke
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I believe the poor man's position, and I mean poor man as *clueless* about tech or not enough time to do it right, will require *some* certification. Whether this is a degree or cert doesn't matter to them. It is an objective third party evaluation. Anyone who thinks it qualifies a candidate for inclusion in the interview or hiring process is the same person hiring those people (we all have them) who say they are an expert programmer, yet aren't. Those people wallow in their self-delusion. My answer to the original poser of the question is: If you want to test yourself, then get certified. It depends on the company whether you really need that. Larger companies may pay to get you certified or a college degree as long as its in the career field you are in. All monies they contribute are tax exempt, then you pay nothing (almost) out of pocket. The one person's Microsoft Gold dealership would require you to be certified because they need a certain number/percentage of employees with specific certs. If you don't have the money for the cert, don't go for it, but utilize the Internet to test your skills. Also go through all the topics of the cert and make sure you personally research and try to apply the research on various platforms: 2K, XP, Vista. Then you are ready for cert and it becomes an academic "when I have money" problem, not a technical one. Remember your target market and ask: "Do they know enough about tech to not just require a cert to talk to me?" -T-
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Not at any place most programmers would want to work at though. Anyone who has ever had to hire a programmer or computer tech knows just how much certification blows. I *always* found the best candidates were the ones that were *not* certified.
"110%" - it's the new 70%
I cant say you're wrong, cause you're not. But what you said was from a "Hiring" perspective, not a "To be hired" perspective. And from a "to be hired" perspective I have to add that all employers are not so well informed and clear-sighted as you John. :) I've seen it happen to many times not to say that some companies have people that at least gives you an interview because of what certificates and other "shiny" stuff you have on paper. So from your perpective John, I'm 100% with you. But from the posters perspective: It will very, very seldom hurt to have the certificates and now and then you are able to fool someone as well. But then again it might very well be someone at a place most programmers would not want to work at though (quoted you there John). :)
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MajorTom123 wrote:
utilize the Internet to test your skills
:-D Dumb question #1: Where would you look on the internet for the skills test? :confused:
In general there are web sites setup that give you the basics for free and in depth for money. There are also people who have taken them and do a brain dump (search for that term). What I have done is download the areas of testing and do a web search for that. However, I will do a quick search now and get back to you. I hope Google is ok for you, here is a link. "Only" 5 million entries ;-) http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=free+certification+study+test&btnG=Google+Search Search term (look in the link) was Free certification study test There are exam guides, practice tests, etc... best wishes.
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Hmm. I wasn't thinking about the relative value of College vs. Experience. I think that is really open for debate. I see them as complementary. College can be thought of as a barrier to entry. You input time, effort and energy and you receive expanded options on the other side. It is very hard to argue that going to college gives one fewer options. With expanded options, we are more likely to gain real world experience that is to our liking because we gravitate toward things we like, and with more options, well, you should see the logic...
Great answer and I totally agree. I only ask because you said certs were 'tertiary', it sorted of implied to me that one and two were ordered. Clearly I read too much :-)
The pleasure's been all mine...and in the end, that's all that's really important.
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Interesting that all the comments about "who needs a certification" comes from people that obviously don't have any. Are you guys jealous? Never wanted to invest in your knowledge? Everything these days is a "money milking machine", including "corporate starbacks". Stop complaining about how others succeeded and do whatever fits you and your plans for the future. Either way, real life experience is always at the top - but when you don't have that (either because you are a newcomer or looking to "switch"), technical certifications are ALWAYS more appreciated (with ANY company) than a college/university degree from the simple reason that those put you a spot to do your work straight away - not the same with the useless theory stuff you learn at the university. If you can get a job without any certs good for you - but then look at the size of the company and the role of your work - unless you want to remain a pity programmer all your life, at some stage you'll need something to climb up the role steps... Just my $.02 .leON.
Your comments are myopic. I have consulted at organizations as small as 2 people up to General Electric here in cleveland. I have no degree, and no certs. I currently work for Sherwin-Williams. There are only 33,000 employees in the company and $8 Billion in revenue. My programs are in all 3000+ stores. If my program fails, then the company loses a lot of revenue. When you are ready to leave high school and get some real world experience, leave a nice comment on the board, otherwise, just read for a while.
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Your comments are myopic. I have consulted at organizations as small as 2 people up to General Electric here in cleveland. I have no degree, and no certs. I currently work for Sherwin-Williams. There are only 33,000 employees in the company and $8 Billion in revenue. My programs are in all 3000+ stores. If my program fails, then the company loses a lot of revenue. When you are ready to leave high school and get some real world experience, leave a nice comment on the board, otherwise, just read for a while.
MajorTom123 wrote:
Your comments are myopic.
Why do you feel my comments are myopic? To which part don't you agree? I'd rather have constructive comments than pathetic ones...
MajorTom123 wrote:
I have no degree, and no certs.
Based on your comments it's easy to tell you don't have any degree nor cert, and that might be the quality of consultation you gave your clients. I work for a company 8 times the size of the company you currently work for (with a bigger revenue than that per quarter), and that still doesn't change the fact that you have to prove your ability - either by real-life experience or degree/cert (as originally mentioned in my comment). I am SURE you didn't apply for work at Sherwin-Williams as a novice and actually already had "some" experience... That was exactly my point!
MajorTom123 wrote:
My programs are in all 3000+ stores
I guess you are doing some kind of programming job. That explains why you worry about "program fails", and shows exactly my point - quoting from my original comment: "unless you want to remain a pity programmer all your life, at some stage you'll need something to climb up the role steps..." So obviously, your lack of degree/cert or whatever experience you think you have got you in reality a programmer job, which I'll remind you is still considered an entry job in the IT world.
MajorTom123 wrote:
When you are ready to leave high school and get some real world experience
Don't see why you think you can patronize me, after all based on your comments you fit exactly my scenario - a pity programmer. I feel sorry for you and the company you work for, obviously you didn't get my point in the first place. Don't see why you've decided to get down to a personal level, after all you don't even know me, but maybe based on your comment you are the one still in high-school? Or maybe, even pre-school when the insecure kids were pushing around the smart kids to make themselves feel better... Either way, next time you reply to someone's comment make sure you know what you are talking about, otherwise I'll suggest YOU to stick around and "just read for a while", you might learn something new. Keep the flaming at other message boards, this one is a serious one. .leON.
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MajorTom123 wrote:
Your comments are myopic.
Why do you feel my comments are myopic? To which part don't you agree? I'd rather have constructive comments than pathetic ones...
MajorTom123 wrote:
I have no degree, and no certs.
Based on your comments it's easy to tell you don't have any degree nor cert, and that might be the quality of consultation you gave your clients. I work for a company 8 times the size of the company you currently work for (with a bigger revenue than that per quarter), and that still doesn't change the fact that you have to prove your ability - either by real-life experience or degree/cert (as originally mentioned in my comment). I am SURE you didn't apply for work at Sherwin-Williams as a novice and actually already had "some" experience... That was exactly my point!
MajorTom123 wrote:
My programs are in all 3000+ stores
I guess you are doing some kind of programming job. That explains why you worry about "program fails", and shows exactly my point - quoting from my original comment: "unless you want to remain a pity programmer all your life, at some stage you'll need something to climb up the role steps..." So obviously, your lack of degree/cert or whatever experience you think you have got you in reality a programmer job, which I'll remind you is still considered an entry job in the IT world.
MajorTom123 wrote:
When you are ready to leave high school and get some real world experience
Don't see why you think you can patronize me, after all based on your comments you fit exactly my scenario - a pity programmer. I feel sorry for you and the company you work for, obviously you didn't get my point in the first place. Don't see why you've decided to get down to a personal level, after all you don't even know me, but maybe based on your comment you are the one still in high-school? Or maybe, even pre-school when the insecure kids were pushing around the smart kids to make themselves feel better... Either way, next time you reply to someone's comment make sure you know what you are talking about, otherwise I'll suggest YOU to stick around and "just read for a while", you might learn something new. Keep the flaming at other message boards, this one is a serious one. .leON.
English obviously is not your strong suit. Take a grammar course. Maybe ask your English teacher. I wasn't the one being personal. You were. Looks like I hit a nerve here. Do you get one of those "certify in a week" certifications? Don't need to know anything, but you got a cert because you could remember what they told you in order to pass a test. Hmmm. Sounds like it.
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Things may work differently here in the UK, but at university alot of the theory we learn is applicable to the real world. We also get our experience on gap-years in industry. Oh - and I would take my degree over a M$ certification any-day of the week. I work for a multinational company, in a small R&D team working on image processing algorithms for embedded systems... doesn't sound like a pity programmer job to me! :) Last year I was travelling Europe, Canada and US visiting major manufacturers and training with their top engineers... I only graduated university with my HND and a BSc 2 years ago. When I was in Canada they have such cheap education that most of the engineers had multiple MSc's and BSc's which they were learning WHILE working, and they said I would find it hard to find a decent programming job over there if I didn't have at least an MSc. That was in both London (not UK version) and Montreal (very cool place!). Certifications are good - I never said they weren't, I just don't see how they would be a pre-requisite to getting an interview for a decent job, especially if the person has proved they can learn and apply their skills in a Software Engineering final year project or a real-world job... but maybe in the UK things are different. Oh.. and one final thing... most people do need SOME form of study... I know a couple of "on the job" learners of programming, they make rookie mistakes, have bad programming habits and rarely know the theory of what goes on in the machine, which can affect quality of work, and usually means they cannot switch to other languages or applications quickly or easily (such as basic CGI/JavaScript/HTML from programming in C)! Again, I'm not saying ALL people are like that, just the ones I have met!
I agree with what you are saying. I can see how weeding out resumes based on this certification metric could work. But anyone who doesn't have time to read the resumes is put in a precarious spot. The company wants the best, but doesn't want to take the time to get the best. I also say the certs are fine, so is a degree, but in our industry it is not a be all end all to knowing our business. We also have many self-taught people who are horrible at programming. But I believe the key is to partner them with mentors to help guide them through the material and key software engineering practices.
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English obviously is not your strong suit. Take a grammar course. Maybe ask your English teacher. I wasn't the one being personal. You were. Looks like I hit a nerve here. Do you get one of those "certify in a week" certifications? Don't need to know anything, but you got a cert because you could remember what they told you in order to pass a test. Hmmm. Sounds like it.
You are still not answering my comments :^) Obviously you got nothing better to say than attacking a total stranger on a personal level :sigh: I did get my MCSD.NET in less than a week, true, without taking any training. At least that's more than what you've got or ever will. I guess I've hit your own nerve right there... Get a life X| .leON.
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I agree with what you are saying. I can see how weeding out resumes based on this certification metric could work. But anyone who doesn't have time to read the resumes is put in a precarious spot. The company wants the best, but doesn't want to take the time to get the best. I also say the certs are fine, so is a degree, but in our industry it is not a be all end all to knowing our business. We also have many self-taught people who are horrible at programming. But I believe the key is to partner them with mentors to help guide them through the material and key software engineering practices.
I think you're right - and alot of the larger companies that take on new/graduate programmers tend to use a mentor based system. I considered jobs with a few companies like BAE, IBM and Qinetiq here in the UK based on their graduate/training packages. Many have training schemes where you spend a year or two in their mentor scheme, some try and get a bit of money back by having you locked into the contract for another year or so after that mentor period too. Unfortunately many companies tend to just advertise jobs for trained engineers and poach the trained people from these mentoring schemes with more money. Many require a few years experience, and I know quite a few software engineering graduates that ended up with IT Support jobs or something completely non-IT related just because nobody was willing to take a chance on people without a few years in the industry already. I guess it is a gamble whether you get a degree, a certification, or just try to get into the industry through self-taught skills...
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I cant say you're wrong, cause you're not. But what you said was from a "Hiring" perspective, not a "To be hired" perspective. And from a "to be hired" perspective I have to add that all employers are not so well informed and clear-sighted as you John. :) I've seen it happen to many times not to say that some companies have people that at least gives you an interview because of what certificates and other "shiny" stuff you have on paper. So from your perpective John, I'm 100% with you. But from the posters perspective: It will very, very seldom hurt to have the certificates and now and then you are able to fool someone as well. But then again it might very well be someone at a place most programmers would not want to work at though (quoted you there John). :)
:) I guess my perspective would be different if I was just starting out, but once anyone has any experience under their belt and is good at what they do then the best way to get a job is to be head hunted anyway. Actually if it suits a person's mind set the best way to be employed is to be self employed anyway, I'd never set foot in a gray cubicle.
"110%" - it's the new 70%
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Like anything it depends. My wife spent $20,000 for a 6 month class to get certified. She was never able to get a job after a 9 month search. She gave up looking and now she works as a security guard. I've always wanted to get certfied but couldn't justify the expense. That is, how much of a pay raise will I get if I'm certified. In reality nothing. The difference between me and my wife, I have a grad degree and 20+ years of experince, she has no experience but does have a Cert. Employers in our area are more concerned about experience and not Certs.
I feel bad about your situation, and can kind of relate in terms of training expense... my wife is in the middle a crisis like this. She has a Biology degree, works for the local council assessing benefit's claims (completely unrelated to her degree), and is wondering if she can get some training to cross over and do some freelance web development. I already freelance a little in my own time, and do alright (although I have a dayjob too)... but we just can't justify the expense of her going on a course to learn enough to take over from me full-time, and we are not sure how well we would do if she did try it full time. So there is a possibility it would be good financially, but at the risk of spending money on the training and it all falling through in the end! :S