The code monkeys are invading!
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Richie308 wrote:
there is an enormous problem of elitism and snobbery amongst geek types.
In all honesty it's about a quarter or less a problem than it was in the '80s and early '90s. Back in those days you could be the biggest asshole in the world, but if you ran a network or wrote software you were untouchable. These days I'm pretty sure most software shops would not think twice to throw an uncivilized nerdy asshole out the door in a heartbeat.
"I don't want more choice. I just want better things!" - Edina Monsoon
Very true. The problem has gotten better, but there are still developers out there like that and still companies that will cater to them. I used to work at one, and there is still a developer there that has caused more problems in the product and that no one wants to work with...but he's still there.
----------------------------- In just two days, tomorrow will be yesterday.
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Scott Dorman wrote:
The point was that people claiming to be professional developers and using the forums to solve their problems without first having put forth effort of their own.
I tend to think the real point is that consumers are getting more and more greedy about price and they care less and less about quality. So decent companies that used to hire American laborers coming from skilled and well known institutions now have to hire off-shore workers to meet the fickle demand of the American consumer. This of course dilutes the quality of the product and makes the fickle consumer my finicky about price. The 'dog eating it's tail' problem is that more off-shoring comes from Americans being less concerned about quality and more concerned about price. It's a vicious cycle that is causing massive decay in American skilled laborers and the sub-societies they belong to. (This is not a statement against the code quality of foreign laborers. There are many seriously talented Indian and Chinese skilled laborers. The point is that so much work is going off-shore that the off-shore labor pools are emptying too quickly and they need to fill them from somewhere to meet the demand. I know many skilled Indian and Chinese developers and I'm not questioning their skill nor am I trying to dilute it.) If Americans would be more willing to spend less often and pay more for quality we'd be in much better shape. Instead Americans cast aside quality for quantity and they don't buy one cell phone that should last for 2+ years easily instead they buy a $39.99 flip-phone that might last 6 months before the next phone trinket comes along that they want more so they ditch the $39.99 phone they just got, sign a 2 year contract and get the next $39.99 phone. Americans have become hungry for 'stuff' but not quality stuff it's about having more and paying less for it but more is no longer synonymous with quality it now equates to quantity. America has a serious problem and you can see it in the posts you describe. The demand that used to feed American families is now 1000's of miles away and off-shore laborers are struggling to keep up with volume of work 'we' used to do. They are coming to American forums and other American online resources to tap into American talent and try and put a false shine of quality on a low quality product or byte of code. Instead of blogging to the world about diluted code and questions developers should be writing senators, congressman and other electe
Thank you for a very inciteful contribution. You have obviously given this considerable thought, we share the same perspective and conclusion. Thank you for articulating so well.
Tom Hamilton Sacramento, CA
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Richie308 wrote:
A hacker is not truly happy unless he can point to someone less knowledgeable and call him a "script kiddy." Someone with a Computer Science degree will find ways to put down those who are self-taught, and those who are self-taught will find ways to put down those with degrees.
I thin any company should have a mix of both, the advantage of having someone with a more methodical approach working with or against someone who has never been in the box, the solutions provided are varied and interesting. Code Monkeys? Script kiddies? surely these are the gurus of the future, I think the most important factors in being a good programmer have nothing to do with actually writing code, persisitence, consitution, insolence, curiousity, self reflection, passion, creativity. Most of these assets will never be taught by a university. Thinking patterns are just as important as book learned knowledge, it's why the CIA trains musicians as codebreaker. Obviously anyone who turns to labeling someone is simply demonstrating his / her own insecurity. It's counter productive, how many people are put off from really devoting themselves because some wank has gone off and said, you could never do that, you are script kiddie, code monkey, or some other label. I think it's important to tell newbies (there is nothing wrong with being newbie right?) do it for yourself, do it the best your can, listen to constructive criticism and ignore the wankers. I do not care HOW valuable or Irreplaceable you think you are, I would much rather delete all your code than hear you dishearten anyone else. My greatest respect has always been to those who do very good, do not gloat when actually they should and always can see themselves in the newbie.
stickershock wrote:
I think the most important factors in being a good programmer have nothing to do with actually writing code, persisitence, consitution, insolence, curiousity, self reflection, passion, creativity.
Definately. You are also right that most of these won't be taught by a university. They are factors that are learned with experience.
stickershock wrote:
I think it's important to tell newbies (there is nothing wrong with being newbie right?) do it for yourself, do it the best your can, listen to constructive criticism and ignore the wankers.
Yes, we were all newbies once. As you said, it's important for the newbie to learn how to do it for themselves...but (as others have also said) a lot of these newbies would be better off picking up a book and learning the basic concepts of programming before asking questions. There is a difference between being a newbie and and not knowing the basic concepts (or taking the time to learn those concepts).
----------------------------- In just two days, tomorrow will be yesterday.
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Richie308 wrote:
Someone with a Computer Science degree will find ways to put down those who are self-taught, and those who are self-taught will find ways to put down those with degrees.
I disagree with this. I started out with a little schooling, then learned a lot through self-teaching and expereince, then I went back to school again. I've seen it from both sides. Yes, I'll agree that there are elitists, but those tend to be the ones who $80k per year for their CS degree and frankly were less qualified than a community college graduate.
only two letters away from being an asset
Mark Nischalke wrote:
Yes, I'll agree that there are elitists, but those tend to be the ones who $80k per year for their CS degree and frankly were less qualified than a community college graduate.
I would say that the elitist camp runs on both sides. I have seen it from the highly (and sometimes over) paid developers who think they are better than everyone else because they have a Master's or Ph.D. (or even a B.S.) degree and I have seen it from the "community college graduate" (or the technical school (Devry type schools) grad) who thinks because they earned a "specialized technical degree" they are better than everyone else. In my experience it isn't about the education but rather about the ability to do the work. I've known some excellent developers that never went to school beyond high school.
----------------------------- In just two days, tomorrow will be yesterday.
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Thank you for a very inciteful contribution. You have obviously given this considerable thought, we share the same perspective and conclusion. Thank you for articulating so well.
Tom Hamilton Sacramento, CA
Thank you. [I wanted to say more, but everything ended up sounding conceited. :-O]
----------------------------- In just two days, tomorrow will be yesterday.
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Trouble is CP is helping them, like Scott said just look at questions being posed in CP and people are answering them, yes I'll be happy to answer a question, but when the question begins "How to you assign an array in c#", well that deserves ridicule. One good thing is the technologies are sweeping that fast the code gimp don't have a chance to learn anything.
P Think of the environment; please don't print this message unless you really need to.
norm .net wrote:
I'll be happy to answer a question, but when the question begins "How to you assign an array in c#", well that deserves ridicule.
That's exactly what I was seeing. I don't mind answering questions either, but there are some that just shouldn't have even been asked.
----------------------------- In just two days, tomorrow will be yesterday.
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Ultimately it sounds like you are saying that America is turning in to a short-sighted, disposable society. In a sense, it is a classic "chicken and egg" problem. Is the work being outsourced because the quality of work here is decreasing or is the quality of work here decreasing because more and more work is being outsourced. In either case, it is a cycle, but like any cycle it is possible to break it.
----------------------------- In just two days, tomorrow will be yesterday.
I think our educational institutions are turning out less and less skilled laborers because there is less work for them to do. We are dumbing down our own society.
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No, its the free market effect. Look, western economies and coders are mourning while Asian economies and coders are running to the bank. You should better find a solution as soon as possible otherwise claiming your more professional developers than others wont help. So who cares.
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I don't think this is a factor of a free market economy, other than indirectly by making both the American consumer and American industry into a disposable society that is more driven by quantity and quick turnaround rather than quality (at least for most things). The question of quality is actually mixed when it comes to the American consumer. We tend to want things of very high quality (quality being lots of features that "just work") but don't mind having to upgrade every 6 months to stay that way. This is one of the main reasons most consumer electronic devices (including cell phones) are released overseas first. The average foreign consumer is much more tolerant of technical problems than we are and they also tend to keep their devices a lot longer as well.
----------------------------- In just two days, tomorrow will be yesterday.
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Great link thanks :) I see his point, but I wouldn’t class myself as a "code monkey" as I have programmed without an internet connection, but if I had the option searching for help or a quick answer is a lot nicer than spending a few hours figuring it out. Over the last year (I'm on industry placement and still a under graduate) my use of CP!!! has gone up and other websites, my C and C++ programs are all done in the most part by scratch, where as a C# or .net one I try and pull together snippets of what I need, edit the snippet (so I don’t feel to bad) then test it, which means in the long run my .net app's are done so much quicker (which has meant I’ve been given more .net applications to improve or do.. so yes I’m probably becoming a bit of a code monkey :(( long as the app works and passes my tests I’m not that bothered) The programming field in full of people good/bad and even brilliant programmers. Like any other career more employees the less value they are worth regardless of there skill level :( Only solution to that problem is for the next big programming language to be so hard that it scares everyone off. Like assembler did to me for the first month of learning it, did my assignments and a couple of projects on the side, then said "thank god I never have to touch that again!" Well that’s a bit of a rant I better get back to work :sigh: "Monkey see monkey do"
sonsam wrote:
I wouldn’t class myself as a "code monkey" as I have programmed without an internet connection, but if I had the option searching for help or a quick answer is a lot nicer than spending a few hours figuring it out.
I don't think this makes you a "code monkey", at least not in the sense that I was using it. Remember, I pointed to the deragatory definition. The more colloquial definition is:
A code monkey generally refers to a computer programmer or other person who writes computer code for a living
I don't mind getting or giving a "quick answer". It sounds like you have an understanding of how to structure a program and an understanding of your programming language. If the "quick answer" you're looking for is actually looking for help solving a problem I don't think anyone would find a problem with it. However, when that quick answer is for a question as basic as "how do I declare an array", it shows a complete lack of initiative and/or understanding of the language and basic programming concepts. -- modified at 12:53 Wednesday 4th July, 2007
----------------------------- In just two days, tomorrow will be yesterday.
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Thank you for a very inciteful contribution. You have obviously given this considerable thought, we share the same perspective and conclusion. Thank you for articulating so well.
Tom Hamilton Sacramento, CA
Software Engineer, Micron Technology 1999 - 2003. Laid off just weeks after my daughter came home from the hospital for the Nth time, lost job, lost home and became locked in a desperate fight to keep my child alive. Self-employed since April of 2004 and thanks to people like you, Jon Sagara, Colin Angus Mackay and a very long and distinguished list of people (Chris Maunder being at the top) here I'm running a successful business. But it's uphill... both ways... and snowing. :-D As far as time to think about it: http://www.readytogiveup.com[^] Yeah, for me time on the clock is ticking and I'm really doing some deep soul searching. Sleeping? Yeah but not very well at all. My life has been a series of connected nightmares since 12/20/2001 at 11:59AM - (5 pounds even and 6 weeks early) and it just doesn't seem to be getting better. I think that I have so much to offer readers, and others like me. I wish I had time to blog and time to share my ideas and opinions... I spend a lot of time thinking about this stuff and it's painful. Only problem is I'm working 80+ hours a week just trying to keep my head above the water.
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Perhaps he is indirectly suggesting that online forums should be shut down! I mean if there weren't people helping out these hobbyist programmers who can't speak legible English, they wouldn't be able to claim to be professional developers, could they? :rolleyes:
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com linkAhhhh!!!! No!!!!!! Not what I was suggesting at all. Then we wouldn't have resources like CP. [I'm pretty sure you were joking, but I can't always tell.]
----------------------------- In just two days, tomorrow will be yesterday.
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Judah Himango wrote:
What do you guys think, are newbies taking over software development?
If a newbie has a proven record of his coding ability, I'll hire him. Unfortunately, university degrees in software engineering, and the like, are often not worth the paper they're printed on. I had a blazing row (in a restaurant) with a university course constructor, not too long ago, because she really could not see the simple failing in her beautifully planned BSc software engineering course -- that it at no time required any of the students to write any code. The course did, of course, include a term's training on how to fill out job application foms and prepare for interviews. And another on how to write letters. And another on how to write reports. And another on how to write project proposals. Etc. So Hell, yeah. If a guy comes to me and demonstrates that he can write the code I need him to write, I'll hire him. I don't give a sh1t if he knows how to write in English; for that, I'll get a technical writer.
Mark Wallace wrote:
If a guy comes to me and demonstrates that he can write the code I need him to write, I'll hire him. I don't give a sh1t if he knows how to write in English; for that, I'll get a technical writer.
I have said many times already, it isn't about the degree but about the quality of work and ability. It also isn't about his ability to write in English, although language barriers can present huge problems. (I've had to manage developers who hardly spoke English and it was challenging getting them to understand what needed to be done.)
----------------------------- In just two days, tomorrow will be yesterday.
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Ahhhh!!!! No!!!!!! Not what I was suggesting at all. Then we wouldn't have resources like CP. [I'm pretty sure you were joking, but I can't always tell.]
----------------------------- In just two days, tomorrow will be yesterday.
Scott Dorman wrote:
[I'm pretty sure you were joking, but I can't always tell.]
I was, and hence the use of the rolleyes smiley :-)
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com link -
Not that it is necessarily newbies taking over the world. I have seen a trend on the forums here toward questions from people who would be better off reading a book and maybe actually taking, or paying attention to, a class or two, before trying to write applications.
only two letters away from being an asset
Mark Nischalke wrote:
I have seen a trend on the forums here toward questions from people who would be better off reading a book and maybe actually taking, or paying attention to, a class or two, before trying to write applications.
Exactly the point I was trying to make and exactly what led me to write the blog post.
----------------------------- In just two days, tomorrow will be yesterday.
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So says this article[^], citing none other than our CP forums as an example. What do you guys think, are newbies taking over software development?
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Back From Vacation The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
AFter reading the article that started this thread, I have to wonder if the author has ever heard of Visual Basic? VB was introduced to the world as the first programming langueage that didn't require a CS to use. Turned out that marketing ploy was a huge success for MS. Not so good for business though. It took a few years for a fall out to take place but it finaly did. The accountants, students, Masters of Business folks, figured out they couldn't create a quality product with drag and drop alone. So they started highering profesionsals again. Unfortunatly those professionals werent much better. So then the industry decided that if you used VB as a means of writting product code you where nothing more then a mere scripter. Sadly untrue. ( can you tell I used VB? ) Ideas create need. Some Ideas are worse then others. In fact, there is probably more money then brains in business. The internet craze is a fine exmaple of that. The ideas get backing, the need becomes overwhelming so that it can't posibly be satisfied. Then come in the H1b's. They fill that bogus need. Unfortunatly, they don't leave as soon as business discovers that there ideas where based on error or pure greed and thus doomed to fail. So we that are citizens, or who plan on making the US there final home, suffer the lower wages and less work. One of the poster stated that we need to write our congress. SO TRUE!!! Most of the time we don't really need the amount of H1's in the country that currently exist. We do need to encurage US citizens to get into IT. And to encurage Corporate America to higher the best labor market in the world. If for no other reason than to keep the best consumer market in the world going. I have so much to say about this, but I think that is enough for now. Happy 4th! Dan
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AFter reading the article that started this thread, I have to wonder if the author has ever heard of Visual Basic? VB was introduced to the world as the first programming langueage that didn't require a CS to use. Turned out that marketing ploy was a huge success for MS. Not so good for business though. It took a few years for a fall out to take place but it finaly did. The accountants, students, Masters of Business folks, figured out they couldn't create a quality product with drag and drop alone. So they started highering profesionsals again. Unfortunatly those professionals werent much better. So then the industry decided that if you used VB as a means of writting product code you where nothing more then a mere scripter. Sadly untrue. ( can you tell I used VB? ) Ideas create need. Some Ideas are worse then others. In fact, there is probably more money then brains in business. The internet craze is a fine exmaple of that. The ideas get backing, the need becomes overwhelming so that it can't posibly be satisfied. Then come in the H1b's. They fill that bogus need. Unfortunatly, they don't leave as soon as business discovers that there ideas where based on error or pure greed and thus doomed to fail. So we that are citizens, or who plan on making the US there final home, suffer the lower wages and less work. One of the poster stated that we need to write our congress. SO TRUE!!! Most of the time we don't really need the amount of H1's in the country that currently exist. We do need to encurage US citizens to get into IT. And to encurage Corporate America to higher the best labor market in the world. If for no other reason than to keep the best consumer market in the world going. I have so much to say about this, but I think that is enough for now. Happy 4th! Dan
snotisfunny wrote:
AFter reading the article that started this thread, I have to wonder if the author has ever heard of Visual Basic?
Yes, I've heard of VB. Yes, I was a VB programmer for many years before .NET came out. It was a marketing ploy by MS and was introduced as a language that didn't require a degree to use. (I wouldn't say it was the first such language, however.) Despite the marketing hype (and the large use of VB) it was aimed more at the hobbyist programmer like the Visual Studio Express products are now. It was the industry and portions of the developer community that turned VB into the mess that it has become.
snotisfunny wrote:
Ideas create need. Some Ideas are worse then others.
I don't think I ever called this into question. Yes, ideas create need and some ideas are worse than others.
snotisfunny wrote:
encurage Corporate America to higher the best labor market in the world. If for no other reason than to keep the best consumer market in the world going.
That is essentially the ending point of my post. The developer community has always (for the most part) been self-correcting. I think this is one of those areas that needs to be corrected. Encouraging corporate America to higher the "best labor market" is great, but unless the community tkaes steps to ensure that the quality of labor is there it isn't going to happen. By allowing developers to pass themselves off as professional who don't have even the basic understanding of programming concepts does alot to hurt the developer community.
----------------------------- In just two days, tomorrow will be yesterday.
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I think our educational institutions are turning out less and less skilled laborers because there is less work for them to do. We are dumbing down our own society.
code-frog wrote:
I think our educational institutions are turning out less and less skilled laborers because there is less work for them to do. We are dumbing down our own society.
I don't know if I would say there is less work for them to do, but I absolutely agree that we are dumbing down our society. Technology is both a blessing and a curse. It allows us to live longer which, in turn, results in more old-age related illnesses. [There are a lot of other scenarios like this, way too many to list.] There is very little that can be done now without the use of computers and technology, where even 40 years ago that wasn't the case. Just look at the Apollo 13[^] incident. If something like that were to happen now, we would be very hard pressed to come up with a solution using only slide rules and pen and paper.
----------------------------- In just two days, tomorrow will be yesterday.
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snotisfunny wrote:
AFter reading the article that started this thread, I have to wonder if the author has ever heard of Visual Basic?
Yes, I've heard of VB. Yes, I was a VB programmer for many years before .NET came out. It was a marketing ploy by MS and was introduced as a language that didn't require a degree to use. (I wouldn't say it was the first such language, however.) Despite the marketing hype (and the large use of VB) it was aimed more at the hobbyist programmer like the Visual Studio Express products are now. It was the industry and portions of the developer community that turned VB into the mess that it has become.
snotisfunny wrote:
Ideas create need. Some Ideas are worse then others.
I don't think I ever called this into question. Yes, ideas create need and some ideas are worse than others.
snotisfunny wrote:
encurage Corporate America to higher the best labor market in the world. If for no other reason than to keep the best consumer market in the world going.
That is essentially the ending point of my post. The developer community has always (for the most part) been self-correcting. I think this is one of those areas that needs to be corrected. Encouraging corporate America to higher the "best labor market" is great, but unless the community tkaes steps to ensure that the quality of labor is there it isn't going to happen. By allowing developers to pass themselves off as professional who don't have even the basic understanding of programming concepts does alot to hurt the developer community.
----------------------------- In just two days, tomorrow will be yesterday.
Hey Scott, Didn't mean to put you on the defensive. Looking over the different posts, most of us aggree with the main points made. I want to know what happened to the idea of Junior. When i started, that was the title I got to wear. That ment, i got to do a lot of crappy codeing. Take a lot of heat. Get paid what I was worth, almost nothing. But learn tons! I don't see that concept anymore. I am watching management higher newbies with salarys that make me blush. But when they can't perform, or they under perform, management gets very confused.
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Scott Dorman wrote:
[I'm pretty sure you were joking, but I can't always tell.]
I was, and hence the use of the rolleyes smiley :-)
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com link:doh: I totally missed the smiley!
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That too. I liken this to the Gold Rush back in the 1890's(?). The money's there, and people will lie, cheat and steal to get it. OT: Anyone know why they canceled Deadwood on HBO? That show had some good insight into how people really think, IMHO.
- S 50 cups of coffee and you know it's on!
Steve Echols wrote:
OT: Anyone know why they canceled Deadwood on HBO?
Have no idea. I've had a few shows that I liked lately that have been KO'ed :(
