The code monkeys are invading!
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I guess I could be considered a "Code Monkey". If that's the case I am proud to be one. I went to school for marketing and worked as an Account Executive for 6 years only to find that I hated my job but liked writing code. I then spent two years learning enough about web programming to be considered for a Jr. Developer position, and finally landed a job with a company that builds custom web apps. I no longer have my own office, and make half the money, but at least now I'm happy with what I do. Plus, with the way the IT industry is moving I'll be doing even better than I was before with a couple more years of experience. According to CNN.com Software Engineer's are the 4th most in demand job for 2002-2012. Does most of my code originate from websites, books, and forums? ABSOLUTLY! However, I don't go around posting questions like the one's in the article above... I think anyone who posts a question on the syntax of an array should be referred to as a "Code Gerbil".
-fr33l0ader It is your responsibility to program each department of your own mind. Should you neglect this responsibility; the world will program it for you.
As I mentioned in an earlier response, I used the term "code monkey" in it's deragatory sense. The more colloquial definition is:
A code monkey generally refers to a computer programmer or other person who writes computer code for a living
fr33l0ad3r wrote:
However, I don't go around posting questions like the one's in the article above
That's my point. Even though you didn't start as a developer, you learned enough on your own to understand the basics and the language.
----------------------------- In just two days, tomorrow will be yesterday.
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Taking over? No ... I would not say that. Actually it's just a standard business practice to try to get cheaper labor. In our shop we've found out the hard way that you can't do that. For example, we hired an offshore group in India to rewrite some critical code in .Net (it was previously a VB6 app). To keep this short - the project was a disaster. The cheap "code monkeys" did a miserable job and our product was in shambles for a couple of years. There are always going to be "newbies" in software development (or any other discipline). If the company you're working for has any brains they will place these newbies under the care of a senior developer that can assign basic tasks and TEACH them the ropes. -CB ;)
CodeBubba wrote:
Actually it's just a standard business practice to try to get cheaper labor. In our shop we've found out the hard way that you can't do that.
Sorry you had to find out the hard way. There can be a difference between cheap labor and someone who doesn't know how to program saying they are a professional developer. In your case it sounds like they were the same, but that isn't always the case.
CodeBubba wrote:
There are always going to be "newbies" in software development (or any other discipline). If the company you're working for has any brains they will place these newbies under the care of a senior developer that can assign basic tasks and TEACH them the ropes.
The problem here isn't the newbies but those developers that don't have the initiative to learn on their own.
----------------------------- In just two days, tomorrow will be yesterday.
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Mark Nischalke wrote:
Yes, I'll agree that there are elitists, but those tend to be the ones who $80k per year for their CS degree and frankly were less qualified than a community college graduate.
I would say that the elitist camp runs on both sides. I have seen it from the highly (and sometimes over) paid developers who think they are better than everyone else because they have a Master's or Ph.D. (or even a B.S.) degree and I have seen it from the "community college graduate" (or the technical school (Devry type schools) grad) who thinks because they earned a "specialized technical degree" they are better than everyone else. In my experience it isn't about the education but rather about the ability to do the work. I've known some excellent developers that never went to school beyond high school.
----------------------------- In just two days, tomorrow will be yesterday.
Scott Dorman wrote:
In my experience it isn't about the education but rather about the ability to do the work. I've known some excellent developers that never went to school beyond high school.
Exactly
only two letters away from being an asset
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I feel for your situation and wish you the best of outcomes. I am only familiar with your situation from earlier posts here in the lounge, but have always (and continue to) liked your posts. The unfortunate thing is, as you mention, it does take time to blog and share ideas, which is something I know you don't have much of.
----------------------------- In just two days, tomorrow will be yesterday.
Tenacity. I believe that in the end tenacity will prevail. So I tell myself to never give up. Make each day count for something and I push on.:bob:
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I think our educational institutions are turning out less and less skilled laborers because there is less work for them to do. We are dumbing down our own society.
In some ways that is true. What about all the "reality" shows on tv nowadays? I hate them all. But lots of people love them. Idiots! But, when I went back to school for a bachelor's degree in IT, I was confident it would help me get a computer, network or software tech job. I graduated magna cum laude, but have not been able to find steady work since graduating 2 years ago. I am sometimes inteviewed by Vietnamese, Chinese and Indians who can barely speak legible English. What's with this? I have about 30 years experience in electronics, data systems, and programming. But I am 56 years old and cannot find a regular job. I got sick of even looking for 6 months until recently. I did not find out until a few years ago, while still in school, about the H-1b visa program. I joined the Programmers Guild a year ago to try and keep the visas down. http://www.RonPaul2008.com
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So says this article[^], citing none other than our CP forums as an example. What do you guys think, are newbies taking over software development?
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Back From Vacation The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
The sky is falling the sky is falling.
David Lane One World One People.
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So says this article[^], citing none other than our CP forums as an example. What do you guys think, are newbies taking over software development?
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Back From Vacation The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
Some of the "new developers" who asks the simple and easy questions might be an experienced developer in other languages, platforms or tools. In many cases, posting a question is much faster to get an answer than digging into documentations. That is why the community forums are so great.:-D:-D
Tom Z. (PMA)
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Some of the "new developers" who asks the simple and easy questions might be an experienced developer in other languages, platforms or tools. In many cases, posting a question is much faster to get an answer than digging into documentations. That is why the community forums are so great.:-D:-D
Tom Z. (PMA)
Tom Z. (PMA) wrote:
Some of the "new developers" who asks the simple and easy questions might be an experienced developer in other languages
If that were the case, the level of questions being asked would be different. An experience programmer in another language is going to know the difference between public and private access, how to declare an array, etc.
----------------------------- In just two days, tomorrow will be yesterday.
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:laugh: Code Monkeys[^]
Mark "script kiddy" Salsbery Microsoft MVP - Visual C++ "Go that way, really fast. If something gets in your way, turn."
Sweeeeeet... Didn't know this was on the way. Thanks! (The uni-voter was probably a blogger that blathers on.. and on... heh.)
This statement was never false.
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Sorry you feel that way...but then again, the blog is just my opinion as well. Looking at your CP profile, the majority of your posts are to the C/C++ forums here so you very well may not be seeing an increase in the types of posts I'm referring to. Look at any of the .NET related boards and you will see them. That being said, I don't see this as an issue restricted to one segment of the developer community.
----------------------------- In just two days, tomorrow will be yesterday.
Do you think he was talking specifically about your blog? Or, maybe, the volume increase in general? Don't be so sensitive.
This statement was never false.
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Do you think he was talking specifically about your blog? Or, maybe, the volume increase in general? Don't be so sensitive.
This statement was never false.
Looking at the context of the post, it does give the appearance that he was talking about my blog. Could I have been wrong and reading too much into it? Absolutely. My response also touched upon the statement saying that he hasn't seen any changes in the forum questions.
----------------------------- In just two days, tomorrow will be yesterday.
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code-frog wrote:
If Americans would be more willing to [...] pay more for quality we'd be in much better shape.
Bingo. You have to hunt to find good milk, fruit, cheese, or meat. Good luck getting your car repaired by someone who actually knows how the thing works. Forget taking care of your possessions, just buy new ones. It comes down to attitude, and sure, there's plenty of blame to share with the ad-men, but snake-oil salesmen are nothing new - we've just made them our kings...
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Yes, but can you blame them for doing so if that's the only legal way they can hire programmers they want at the rate they can afford?
-- Nish on sketchy hiring practices
Getting good repair work is easy. Depending on where you live, find a Mexican, Venezuelan, Cuban, African, etc. immigrant mechanic, anyone who learned his trade in a _really_ impoverished nation. I spent several months in Venezuela, where new cars are found only among the favored few. Everyone else has to keep his 20-year old car on the road by heroic measures. A mechanic who survives under these conditions has to know his job better than a "replace it and see if that fixes it" guy.
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In some ways that is true. What about all the "reality" shows on tv nowadays? I hate them all. But lots of people love them. Idiots! But, when I went back to school for a bachelor's degree in IT, I was confident it would help me get a computer, network or software tech job. I graduated magna cum laude, but have not been able to find steady work since graduating 2 years ago. I am sometimes inteviewed by Vietnamese, Chinese and Indians who can barely speak legible English. What's with this? I have about 30 years experience in electronics, data systems, and programming. But I am 56 years old and cannot find a regular job. I got sick of even looking for 6 months until recently. I did not find out until a few years ago, while still in school, about the H-1b visa program. I joined the Programmers Guild a year ago to try and keep the visas down. http://www.RonPaul2008.com
I'm 74. I got my only degree, in physics, in 1960. I have been programming since 1962, when I fell in love with an IBM 1620. In May 2007 I accepted a full-time programming position writing embedded systems software. As Shakespeare said, "The fault, dear Brutus, lies not in our stars ..." You can't lift yourself up by putting the other guy down.
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Getting good repair work is easy. Depending on where you live, find a Mexican, Venezuelan, Cuban, African, etc. immigrant mechanic, anyone who learned his trade in a _really_ impoverished nation. I spent several months in Venezuela, where new cars are found only among the favored few. Everyone else has to keep his 20-year old car on the road by heroic measures. A mechanic who survives under these conditions has to know his job better than a "replace it and see if that fixes it" guy.
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No need to apologize. I did interpret it that way (my wife said I was reading it wrong as well :) ). I re-read your original post and the sarcasm in it is much clearer now.
----------------------------- In just two days, tomorrow will be yesterday.
Yep, you're a little sensitive about this subject.
This statement was never false.
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snotisfunny wrote:
AFter reading the article that started this thread, I have to wonder if the author has ever heard of Visual Basic?
Yes, I've heard of VB. Yes, I was a VB programmer for many years before .NET came out. It was a marketing ploy by MS and was introduced as a language that didn't require a degree to use. (I wouldn't say it was the first such language, however.) Despite the marketing hype (and the large use of VB) it was aimed more at the hobbyist programmer like the Visual Studio Express products are now. It was the industry and portions of the developer community that turned VB into the mess that it has become.
snotisfunny wrote:
Ideas create need. Some Ideas are worse then others.
I don't think I ever called this into question. Yes, ideas create need and some ideas are worse than others.
snotisfunny wrote:
encurage Corporate America to higher the best labor market in the world. If for no other reason than to keep the best consumer market in the world going.
That is essentially the ending point of my post. The developer community has always (for the most part) been self-correcting. I think this is one of those areas that needs to be corrected. Encouraging corporate America to higher the "best labor market" is great, but unless the community tkaes steps to ensure that the quality of labor is there it isn't going to happen. By allowing developers to pass themselves off as professional who don't have even the basic understanding of programming concepts does alot to hurt the developer community.
----------------------------- In just two days, tomorrow will be yesterday.
Scott Dorman wrote:
Despite the marketing hype (and the large use of VB) it was aimed more at the hobbyist programmer like the Visual Studio Express products are now.
Wrong! It was aimed at the business sector, largely banks and what not, that could use it in conjunction with Access to do little apps quickly. In 96 we had guys jumping ship to work at some bank or other commanding 80k because of VB and Access. And the story was always how they couldn't scale and would be calling us C++'ers in to fix the situation when it blew. I would definately say that this trend of the code monkey started with MS's heavy promotion of VB in the business sector. So, you started with VB and then went to .NET? No C++?
This statement was never false.
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Hey Scott, Didn't mean to put you on the defensive. Looking over the different posts, most of us aggree with the main points made. I want to know what happened to the idea of Junior. When i started, that was the title I got to wear. That ment, i got to do a lot of crappy codeing. Take a lot of heat. Get paid what I was worth, almost nothing. But learn tons! I don't see that concept anymore. I am watching management higher newbies with salarys that make me blush. But when they can't perform, or they under perform, management gets very confused.
The age of the internet and the .com's that dominated the end of the century is what killed the Junior title. I was promoted to Senior only after 5 years exp, and actually argued with my manager that I thought it was too soon. 7-9 felt more apt, coming from a blue collar background of construction. But he promoted me anyway, well, a guy with 2 years contracting experience complained and that squeaky wheel got the grease. Guess what? A guy with only 2 years experience fresh out of college was now a Senior Engineer. What a shame. I shouldn't even have moved up yet let alone him.
This statement was never false.
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snotisfunny wrote:
Didn't mean to put you on the defensive.
No problem. I guess I did come off a little strong at the beginning of my response. That's one of the problems with written communication like this, the intent behind the words isn't always obvious and can be completely missed or taken the wrong way.
snotisfunny wrote:
I want to know what happened to the idea of Junior. When i started, that was the title I got to wear.
Very good point. I also wore that title when I first started. It seems like it has gone the way of Junior Mints[^] in the movie theaters. Perhaps the industry and developer community need to start pushing to bring back these levels of classification. A funny story acutally goes along with that title. Several years ago I was working as a development manager for a large Fortune 500 company and had a developer transfer in from another group. He had been out of school for a few years and had only done web development as a junior programmer. Despite all of that he viewed himself as a Senior developer and at one point even questioned why I didn't view him as a senior developer. After all, he went to a top ranked high-shcool and a top ranked technology institute in New York...so he must be a senior developer. The trouble was, he couldn't do anything outside the realm of web development and had a hard time understanding object oriented programming concepts. Needless to say, he didn't work out very well.
----------------------------- In just two days, tomorrow will be yesterday.
Scott Dorman wrote:
No problem. I guess I did come off a little strong at the beginning of my response. That's one of the problems with written communication like this, the intent behind the words isn't always obvious and can be completely missed or taken the wrong way.
Nah, you're too close to the subject. This is the hazard of reading and responding to feedback on one of your works. Every post you've made so far has been defensive. They are discussing and maybe attacking, the concepts and position, not you. You've got to get over that if you want you're views in the public and discussed.
This statement was never false.
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Sorry you feel that way...but then again, the blog is just my opinion as well. Looking at your CP profile, the majority of your posts are to the C/C++ forums here so you very well may not be seeing an increase in the types of posts I'm referring to. Look at any of the .NET related boards and you will see them. That being said, I don't see this as an issue restricted to one segment of the developer community.
----------------------------- In just two days, tomorrow will be yesterday.
Hi Scott, I was talking about blogs in general and certainly meant no disrespect toward you or your blog. The blog comment was pretty tongue-in-cheek. As for my opinion on your one blog entry - no big deal. I'm pretty sure it doesn't matter what I think one way or the other. If I reread it again now, maybe I'd feel different. I think on that topic I live in blissful denial as much as possible. I could go off on a soapbox rant about how hard it is to find good programmers (I do it occasionally with my business partner :)) Regardless of education and work experience, it's next to impossible to find programmers with any problem-solving skills. Maybe there should be more courses in how to use MSDN or how to find what you need with Google. I don't expect anyone to have the SDK or .NET framework memorized. I don't expect anyone to already have a solution to every situation/problem that comes up. I do expect programmers to know how to research a solution though. Why is that too much to ask? :) Cheers! Mark
Mark Salsbery Microsoft MVP - Visual C++ "Go that way, really fast. If something gets in your way, turn."
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Scott Dorman wrote:
No problem. I guess I did come off a little strong at the beginning of my response. That's one of the problems with written communication like this, the intent behind the words isn't always obvious and can be completely missed or taken the wrong way.
Nah, you're too close to the subject. This is the hazard of reading and responding to feedback on one of your works. Every post you've made so far has been defensive. They are discussing and maybe attacking, the concepts and position, not you. You've got to get over that if you want you're views in the public and discussed.
This statement was never false.
Chris-Kaiser wrote:
Nah, you're too close to the subject. This is the hazard of reading and responding to feedback on one of your works.
I'm definately close to the subject, :) but you are right, it is one of the hazards of reading and responding to feedback on something I wrote.
Chris-Kaiser wrote:
Every post you've made so far has been defensive. They are discussing and maybe attacking, the concepts and position, not you. You've got to get over that if you want you're views in the public and discussed.
You are absolutely right and thank you for the constructive criticism. I do try, but (obviously) don't always succeed.
----------------------------- In just two days, tomorrow will be yesterday.