The code monkeys are invading!
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Not that it is necessarily newbies taking over the world. I have seen a trend on the forums here toward questions from people who would be better off reading a book and maybe actually taking, or paying attention to, a class or two, before trying to write applications.
only two letters away from being an asset
Mark Nischalke wrote:
I have seen a trend on the forums here toward questions from people who would be better off reading a book and maybe actually taking, or paying attention to, a class or two, before trying to write applications.
Exactly the point I was trying to make and exactly what led me to write the blog post.
----------------------------- In just two days, tomorrow will be yesterday.
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So says this article[^], citing none other than our CP forums as an example. What do you guys think, are newbies taking over software development?
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Back From Vacation The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
AFter reading the article that started this thread, I have to wonder if the author has ever heard of Visual Basic? VB was introduced to the world as the first programming langueage that didn't require a CS to use. Turned out that marketing ploy was a huge success for MS. Not so good for business though. It took a few years for a fall out to take place but it finaly did. The accountants, students, Masters of Business folks, figured out they couldn't create a quality product with drag and drop alone. So they started highering profesionsals again. Unfortunatly those professionals werent much better. So then the industry decided that if you used VB as a means of writting product code you where nothing more then a mere scripter. Sadly untrue. ( can you tell I used VB? ) Ideas create need. Some Ideas are worse then others. In fact, there is probably more money then brains in business. The internet craze is a fine exmaple of that. The ideas get backing, the need becomes overwhelming so that it can't posibly be satisfied. Then come in the H1b's. They fill that bogus need. Unfortunatly, they don't leave as soon as business discovers that there ideas where based on error or pure greed and thus doomed to fail. So we that are citizens, or who plan on making the US there final home, suffer the lower wages and less work. One of the poster stated that we need to write our congress. SO TRUE!!! Most of the time we don't really need the amount of H1's in the country that currently exist. We do need to encurage US citizens to get into IT. And to encurage Corporate America to higher the best labor market in the world. If for no other reason than to keep the best consumer market in the world going. I have so much to say about this, but I think that is enough for now. Happy 4th! Dan
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AFter reading the article that started this thread, I have to wonder if the author has ever heard of Visual Basic? VB was introduced to the world as the first programming langueage that didn't require a CS to use. Turned out that marketing ploy was a huge success for MS. Not so good for business though. It took a few years for a fall out to take place but it finaly did. The accountants, students, Masters of Business folks, figured out they couldn't create a quality product with drag and drop alone. So they started highering profesionsals again. Unfortunatly those professionals werent much better. So then the industry decided that if you used VB as a means of writting product code you where nothing more then a mere scripter. Sadly untrue. ( can you tell I used VB? ) Ideas create need. Some Ideas are worse then others. In fact, there is probably more money then brains in business. The internet craze is a fine exmaple of that. The ideas get backing, the need becomes overwhelming so that it can't posibly be satisfied. Then come in the H1b's. They fill that bogus need. Unfortunatly, they don't leave as soon as business discovers that there ideas where based on error or pure greed and thus doomed to fail. So we that are citizens, or who plan on making the US there final home, suffer the lower wages and less work. One of the poster stated that we need to write our congress. SO TRUE!!! Most of the time we don't really need the amount of H1's in the country that currently exist. We do need to encurage US citizens to get into IT. And to encurage Corporate America to higher the best labor market in the world. If for no other reason than to keep the best consumer market in the world going. I have so much to say about this, but I think that is enough for now. Happy 4th! Dan
snotisfunny wrote:
AFter reading the article that started this thread, I have to wonder if the author has ever heard of Visual Basic?
Yes, I've heard of VB. Yes, I was a VB programmer for many years before .NET came out. It was a marketing ploy by MS and was introduced as a language that didn't require a degree to use. (I wouldn't say it was the first such language, however.) Despite the marketing hype (and the large use of VB) it was aimed more at the hobbyist programmer like the Visual Studio Express products are now. It was the industry and portions of the developer community that turned VB into the mess that it has become.
snotisfunny wrote:
Ideas create need. Some Ideas are worse then others.
I don't think I ever called this into question. Yes, ideas create need and some ideas are worse than others.
snotisfunny wrote:
encurage Corporate America to higher the best labor market in the world. If for no other reason than to keep the best consumer market in the world going.
That is essentially the ending point of my post. The developer community has always (for the most part) been self-correcting. I think this is one of those areas that needs to be corrected. Encouraging corporate America to higher the "best labor market" is great, but unless the community tkaes steps to ensure that the quality of labor is there it isn't going to happen. By allowing developers to pass themselves off as professional who don't have even the basic understanding of programming concepts does alot to hurt the developer community.
----------------------------- In just two days, tomorrow will be yesterday.
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I think our educational institutions are turning out less and less skilled laborers because there is less work for them to do. We are dumbing down our own society.
code-frog wrote:
I think our educational institutions are turning out less and less skilled laborers because there is less work for them to do. We are dumbing down our own society.
I don't know if I would say there is less work for them to do, but I absolutely agree that we are dumbing down our society. Technology is both a blessing and a curse. It allows us to live longer which, in turn, results in more old-age related illnesses. [There are a lot of other scenarios like this, way too many to list.] There is very little that can be done now without the use of computers and technology, where even 40 years ago that wasn't the case. Just look at the Apollo 13[^] incident. If something like that were to happen now, we would be very hard pressed to come up with a solution using only slide rules and pen and paper.
----------------------------- In just two days, tomorrow will be yesterday.
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snotisfunny wrote:
AFter reading the article that started this thread, I have to wonder if the author has ever heard of Visual Basic?
Yes, I've heard of VB. Yes, I was a VB programmer for many years before .NET came out. It was a marketing ploy by MS and was introduced as a language that didn't require a degree to use. (I wouldn't say it was the first such language, however.) Despite the marketing hype (and the large use of VB) it was aimed more at the hobbyist programmer like the Visual Studio Express products are now. It was the industry and portions of the developer community that turned VB into the mess that it has become.
snotisfunny wrote:
Ideas create need. Some Ideas are worse then others.
I don't think I ever called this into question. Yes, ideas create need and some ideas are worse than others.
snotisfunny wrote:
encurage Corporate America to higher the best labor market in the world. If for no other reason than to keep the best consumer market in the world going.
That is essentially the ending point of my post. The developer community has always (for the most part) been self-correcting. I think this is one of those areas that needs to be corrected. Encouraging corporate America to higher the "best labor market" is great, but unless the community tkaes steps to ensure that the quality of labor is there it isn't going to happen. By allowing developers to pass themselves off as professional who don't have even the basic understanding of programming concepts does alot to hurt the developer community.
----------------------------- In just two days, tomorrow will be yesterday.
Hey Scott, Didn't mean to put you on the defensive. Looking over the different posts, most of us aggree with the main points made. I want to know what happened to the idea of Junior. When i started, that was the title I got to wear. That ment, i got to do a lot of crappy codeing. Take a lot of heat. Get paid what I was worth, almost nothing. But learn tons! I don't see that concept anymore. I am watching management higher newbies with salarys that make me blush. But when they can't perform, or they under perform, management gets very confused.
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Scott Dorman wrote:
[I'm pretty sure you were joking, but I can't always tell.]
I was, and hence the use of the rolleyes smiley :-)
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com link:doh: I totally missed the smiley!
----------------------------- In just two days, tomorrow will be yesterday.
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That too. I liken this to the Gold Rush back in the 1890's(?). The money's there, and people will lie, cheat and steal to get it. OT: Anyone know why they canceled Deadwood on HBO? That show had some good insight into how people really think, IMHO.
- S 50 cups of coffee and you know it's on!
Steve Echols wrote:
OT: Anyone know why they canceled Deadwood on HBO?
Have no idea. I've had a few shows that I liked lately that have been KO'ed :(
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Hey Scott, Didn't mean to put you on the defensive. Looking over the different posts, most of us aggree with the main points made. I want to know what happened to the idea of Junior. When i started, that was the title I got to wear. That ment, i got to do a lot of crappy codeing. Take a lot of heat. Get paid what I was worth, almost nothing. But learn tons! I don't see that concept anymore. I am watching management higher newbies with salarys that make me blush. But when they can't perform, or they under perform, management gets very confused.
snotisfunny wrote:
Didn't mean to put you on the defensive.
No problem. I guess I did come off a little strong at the beginning of my response. That's one of the problems with written communication like this, the intent behind the words isn't always obvious and can be completely missed or taken the wrong way.
snotisfunny wrote:
I want to know what happened to the idea of Junior. When i started, that was the title I got to wear.
Very good point. I also wore that title when I first started. It seems like it has gone the way of Junior Mints[^] in the movie theaters. Perhaps the industry and developer community need to start pushing to bring back these levels of classification. A funny story acutally goes along with that title. Several years ago I was working as a development manager for a large Fortune 500 company and had a developer transfer in from another group. He had been out of school for a few years and had only done web development as a junior programmer. Despite all of that he viewed himself as a Senior developer and at one point even questioned why I didn't view him as a senior developer. After all, he went to a top ranked high-shcool and a top ranked technology institute in New York...so he must be a senior developer. The trouble was, he couldn't do anything outside the realm of web development and had a hard time understanding object oriented programming concepts. Needless to say, he didn't work out very well.
----------------------------- In just two days, tomorrow will be yesterday.
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So says this article[^], citing none other than our CP forums as an example. What do you guys think, are newbies taking over software development?
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Back From Vacation The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
I guess I could be considered a "Code Monkey". If that's the case I am proud to be one. I went to school for marketing and worked as an Account Executive for 6 years only to find that I hated my job but liked writing code. I then spent two years learning enough about web programming to be considered for a Jr. Developer position, and finally landed a job with a company that builds custom web apps. I no longer have my own office, and make half the money, but at least now I'm happy with what I do. Plus, with the way the IT industry is moving I'll be doing even better than I was before with a couple more years of experience. According to CNN.com Software Engineer's are the 4th most in demand job for 2002-2012. Does most of my code originate from websites, books, and forums? ABSOLUTLY! However, I don't go around posting questions like the one's in the article above... I think anyone who posts a question on the syntax of an array should be referred to as a "Code Gerbil".
-fr33l0ader It is your responsibility to program each department of your own mind. Should you neglect this responsibility; the world will program it for you.
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Software Engineer, Micron Technology 1999 - 2003. Laid off just weeks after my daughter came home from the hospital for the Nth time, lost job, lost home and became locked in a desperate fight to keep my child alive. Self-employed since April of 2004 and thanks to people like you, Jon Sagara, Colin Angus Mackay and a very long and distinguished list of people (Chris Maunder being at the top) here I'm running a successful business. But it's uphill... both ways... and snowing. :-D As far as time to think about it: http://www.readytogiveup.com[^] Yeah, for me time on the clock is ticking and I'm really doing some deep soul searching. Sleeping? Yeah but not very well at all. My life has been a series of connected nightmares since 12/20/2001 at 11:59AM - (5 pounds even and 6 weeks early) and it just doesn't seem to be getting better. I think that I have so much to offer readers, and others like me. I wish I had time to blog and time to share my ideas and opinions... I spend a lot of time thinking about this stuff and it's painful. Only problem is I'm working 80+ hours a week just trying to keep my head above the water.
I feel for your situation and wish you the best of outcomes. I am only familiar with your situation from earlier posts here in the lounge, but have always (and continue to) liked your posts. The unfortunate thing is, as you mention, it does take time to blog and share ideas, which is something I know you don't have much of.
----------------------------- In just two days, tomorrow will be yesterday.
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So says this article[^], citing none other than our CP forums as an example. What do you guys think, are newbies taking over software development?
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Back From Vacation The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
Taking over? No ... I would not say that. Actually it's just a standard business practice to try to get cheaper labor. In our shop we've found out the hard way that you can't do that. For example, we hired an offshore group in India to rewrite some critical code in .Net (it was previously a VB6 app). To keep this short - the project was a disaster. The cheap "code monkeys" did a miserable job and our product was in shambles for a couple of years. There are always going to be "newbies" in software development (or any other discipline). If the company you're working for has any brains they will place these newbies under the care of a senior developer that can assign basic tasks and TEACH them the ropes. -CB ;)
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I guess I could be considered a "Code Monkey". If that's the case I am proud to be one. I went to school for marketing and worked as an Account Executive for 6 years only to find that I hated my job but liked writing code. I then spent two years learning enough about web programming to be considered for a Jr. Developer position, and finally landed a job with a company that builds custom web apps. I no longer have my own office, and make half the money, but at least now I'm happy with what I do. Plus, with the way the IT industry is moving I'll be doing even better than I was before with a couple more years of experience. According to CNN.com Software Engineer's are the 4th most in demand job for 2002-2012. Does most of my code originate from websites, books, and forums? ABSOLUTLY! However, I don't go around posting questions like the one's in the article above... I think anyone who posts a question on the syntax of an array should be referred to as a "Code Gerbil".
-fr33l0ader It is your responsibility to program each department of your own mind. Should you neglect this responsibility; the world will program it for you.
As I mentioned in an earlier response, I used the term "code monkey" in it's deragatory sense. The more colloquial definition is:
A code monkey generally refers to a computer programmer or other person who writes computer code for a living
fr33l0ad3r wrote:
However, I don't go around posting questions like the one's in the article above
That's my point. Even though you didn't start as a developer, you learned enough on your own to understand the basics and the language.
----------------------------- In just two days, tomorrow will be yesterday.
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Taking over? No ... I would not say that. Actually it's just a standard business practice to try to get cheaper labor. In our shop we've found out the hard way that you can't do that. For example, we hired an offshore group in India to rewrite some critical code in .Net (it was previously a VB6 app). To keep this short - the project was a disaster. The cheap "code monkeys" did a miserable job and our product was in shambles for a couple of years. There are always going to be "newbies" in software development (or any other discipline). If the company you're working for has any brains they will place these newbies under the care of a senior developer that can assign basic tasks and TEACH them the ropes. -CB ;)
CodeBubba wrote:
Actually it's just a standard business practice to try to get cheaper labor. In our shop we've found out the hard way that you can't do that.
Sorry you had to find out the hard way. There can be a difference between cheap labor and someone who doesn't know how to program saying they are a professional developer. In your case it sounds like they were the same, but that isn't always the case.
CodeBubba wrote:
There are always going to be "newbies" in software development (or any other discipline). If the company you're working for has any brains they will place these newbies under the care of a senior developer that can assign basic tasks and TEACH them the ropes.
The problem here isn't the newbies but those developers that don't have the initiative to learn on their own.
----------------------------- In just two days, tomorrow will be yesterday.
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Mark Nischalke wrote:
Yes, I'll agree that there are elitists, but those tend to be the ones who $80k per year for their CS degree and frankly were less qualified than a community college graduate.
I would say that the elitist camp runs on both sides. I have seen it from the highly (and sometimes over) paid developers who think they are better than everyone else because they have a Master's or Ph.D. (or even a B.S.) degree and I have seen it from the "community college graduate" (or the technical school (Devry type schools) grad) who thinks because they earned a "specialized technical degree" they are better than everyone else. In my experience it isn't about the education but rather about the ability to do the work. I've known some excellent developers that never went to school beyond high school.
----------------------------- In just two days, tomorrow will be yesterday.
Scott Dorman wrote:
In my experience it isn't about the education but rather about the ability to do the work. I've known some excellent developers that never went to school beyond high school.
Exactly
only two letters away from being an asset
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I feel for your situation and wish you the best of outcomes. I am only familiar with your situation from earlier posts here in the lounge, but have always (and continue to) liked your posts. The unfortunate thing is, as you mention, it does take time to blog and share ideas, which is something I know you don't have much of.
----------------------------- In just two days, tomorrow will be yesterday.
Tenacity. I believe that in the end tenacity will prevail. So I tell myself to never give up. Make each day count for something and I push on.:bob:
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I think our educational institutions are turning out less and less skilled laborers because there is less work for them to do. We are dumbing down our own society.
In some ways that is true. What about all the "reality" shows on tv nowadays? I hate them all. But lots of people love them. Idiots! But, when I went back to school for a bachelor's degree in IT, I was confident it would help me get a computer, network or software tech job. I graduated magna cum laude, but have not been able to find steady work since graduating 2 years ago. I am sometimes inteviewed by Vietnamese, Chinese and Indians who can barely speak legible English. What's with this? I have about 30 years experience in electronics, data systems, and programming. But I am 56 years old and cannot find a regular job. I got sick of even looking for 6 months until recently. I did not find out until a few years ago, while still in school, about the H-1b visa program. I joined the Programmers Guild a year ago to try and keep the visas down. http://www.RonPaul2008.com
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So says this article[^], citing none other than our CP forums as an example. What do you guys think, are newbies taking over software development?
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Back From Vacation The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
The sky is falling the sky is falling.
David Lane One World One People.
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So says this article[^], citing none other than our CP forums as an example. What do you guys think, are newbies taking over software development?
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Back From Vacation The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
Some of the "new developers" who asks the simple and easy questions might be an experienced developer in other languages, platforms or tools. In many cases, posting a question is much faster to get an answer than digging into documentations. That is why the community forums are so great.:-D:-D
Tom Z. (PMA)
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Some of the "new developers" who asks the simple and easy questions might be an experienced developer in other languages, platforms or tools. In many cases, posting a question is much faster to get an answer than digging into documentations. That is why the community forums are so great.:-D:-D
Tom Z. (PMA)
Tom Z. (PMA) wrote:
Some of the "new developers" who asks the simple and easy questions might be an experienced developer in other languages
If that were the case, the level of questions being asked would be different. An experience programmer in another language is going to know the difference between public and private access, how to declare an array, etc.
----------------------------- In just two days, tomorrow will be yesterday.
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:laugh: Code Monkeys[^]
Mark "script kiddy" Salsbery Microsoft MVP - Visual C++ "Go that way, really fast. If something gets in your way, turn."
Sweeeeeet... Didn't know this was on the way. Thanks! (The uni-voter was probably a blogger that blathers on.. and on... heh.)
This statement was never false.
