A couple of pro-H1B articles by Americans
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These guys are managers. One of them pretty much says that he chose subservient 'team players' over someone with all the skills needed but was arrogant - in manager-speak arrogant is shorthand for "doesn't brownnose." There are plenty of Americans who support H1B gutting of American technology. There are also Americans who sell hard drugs to kids.
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
I'm not so sure, if you've seen some of the comments that appear regularly on this board made by "western" programmers you'd come to the conclusion that it's still 1986 and were all some sort of untouchable god-like creatures with a fundamental right to disagree with any boss no matter how limited the information, choose the programming language no matter the project etc etc. I think a lot of programmers who came through the dot com boom era and before are stuck in the past not realizing what a commodity a programmer is these days. Protectionism ultimately fails in the end. I'd like to see more innovation and less protectionism, you can only ride the PC for so long, it was never going to be an unlimited locked market for programming talent.
"I don't want more choice. I just want better things!" - Edina Monsoon
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One guy's view on H1-B visas [^] On H1-B Visas[^] I read these two blog articles today and thought it interesting that they are both pro-H1B and are written by American software developers. I thought this would be a nice follow-up topic to Marc's thread on Outsourcing.
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com linkI used to work in the USA on a H1-B visa. I left in 2000 with 2 years left to run on my visa because I preferred my own country. At the time the people I worked with seemed genuinely sad that I didn't want to stay, as they seemed to welcome diversity in their workplace. I never once heard the words 'you've stolen someone's job' or 'cheap labour'. The only articles I read about H1-B visas mentioned the fact that they 'ran out' earlier each year than the last. It seems very strange to me that the country and people I knew back then seems to bear little resemblance to the one I read about now. I wonder what has changed to turn the attitude from 'your welcome in our country, work with us to build something great' to 'go home, foreign worker'. Perhaps it's a vocal minority, but I can't help but think a ground shift in opinion has taken place and opinions are now set in a new direction.
Bruce Chapman iFinity.com.au - Websites and Software Development Plithy remark available in Beta 2
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These guys are managers. One of them pretty much says that he chose subservient 'team players' over someone with all the skills needed but was arrogant - in manager-speak arrogant is shorthand for "doesn't brownnose." There are plenty of Americans who support H1B gutting of American technology. There are also Americans who sell hard drugs to kids.
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
Hey, I am a uk developer and come from a country which still believes in the value of a migrant workforce.(well some of us anyway - :) ) Lets be honest in every country there are good developers and crap developers. Sometimes (and only sometimes) the crap ones are too lasy too get better. Whats wrong with another country attracting the best developers from other places and using them to increase the productivity of your business - this generates more money ,which means a stronger / better economy , The public pay less taxes as more people are employed (in theory at least, its a rare government thats says - oh we took more money than we need have some back, they are more likely to reduce next years tax bill - ok I'm an optimist ) and therefore its better for "joe public". Economic migrants are one of the reasons the UK for all its small size (most US states are bigger) is one of the top economies of the world. Its not just a case of get em from abroad and pay em peanuts either - although there is a tendency for that in certain areas of the economy - in general a developer in the UK gets a UK salary no matter where they are from. (I am not talking about outsourcing here ) The big problem is that you have to ensure that the quota levels are high but not so high that your good local IT developers are unemployed - just the crap ones who will have to get better or change careers. Whoever decides that level will certainly be way more capable than I am. Actually I think the lack of quotas in the UK is a bad thing as it can mean econmic migrants comming over to the UK , not being able to find what they want to do and what they are good at (say IT) and having to change jobs just to survive. Either that or having to leave the UK. I think a quota system (as used by Australia or the US) would reduce a lot of this "churn" which would be good. So people, think about it, econmic migrants can be good for your country. Martin
life is a bowl of cherries go on take a byte
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These guys are managers. One of them pretty much says that he chose subservient 'team players' over someone with all the skills needed but was arrogant - in manager-speak arrogant is shorthand for "doesn't brownnose." There are plenty of Americans who support H1B gutting of American technology. There are also Americans who sell hard drugs to kids.
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
Oakman wrote:
in manager-speak arrogant is shorthand for "doesn't brownnose."
Bullshit. You don't have to be subservient to be a team player but you can't be an arrogant prima donna programmer either.
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Shog9 wrote:
And with that, Paul closed his browser, sipped his herbal tea, fixed the flower in his hair, and smiled brightly at the multitude of cute, furry animals flocking around the grassy hillside where he sat coding Ruby on his Mac...
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I used to work in the USA on a H1-B visa. I left in 2000 with 2 years left to run on my visa because I preferred my own country. At the time the people I worked with seemed genuinely sad that I didn't want to stay, as they seemed to welcome diversity in their workplace. I never once heard the words 'you've stolen someone's job' or 'cheap labour'. The only articles I read about H1-B visas mentioned the fact that they 'ran out' earlier each year than the last. It seems very strange to me that the country and people I knew back then seems to bear little resemblance to the one I read about now. I wonder what has changed to turn the attitude from 'your welcome in our country, work with us to build something great' to 'go home, foreign worker'. Perhaps it's a vocal minority, but I can't help but think a ground shift in opinion has taken place and opinions are now set in a new direction.
Bruce Chapman iFinity.com.au - Websites and Software Development Plithy remark available in Beta 2
brucerchapman wrote:
I never once heard the words 'you've stolen someone's job' or 'cheap labour'.
Being white and from a similar culture makes a difference :rolleyes:
brucerchapman wrote:
I can't help but think a ground shift in opinion has taken place and opinions are now set in a new direction.
Australia has often followed American trends and I think this will happen here as well. Pollies have got a lot to gain by whipping up a nationalist fervour.
I enjoy occasionally wandering around randomly, and often find that when I do so, I get to where I wanted to be [^]. Awasu 2.3 [^]: A free RSS/Atom feed reader with support for Code Project. 50% discount on the paid editions for CP members!
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I'm not so sure, if you've seen some of the comments that appear regularly on this board made by "western" programmers you'd come to the conclusion that it's still 1986 and were all some sort of untouchable god-like creatures with a fundamental right to disagree with any boss no matter how limited the information, choose the programming language no matter the project etc etc. I think a lot of programmers who came through the dot com boom era and before are stuck in the past not realizing what a commodity a programmer is these days. Protectionism ultimately fails in the end. I'd like to see more innovation and less protectionism, you can only ride the PC for so long, it was never going to be an unlimited locked market for programming talent.
"I don't want more choice. I just want better things!" - Edina Monsoon
-
One guy's view on H1-B visas [^] On H1-B Visas[^] I read these two blog articles today and thought it interesting that they are both pro-H1B and are written by American software developers. I thought this would be a nice follow-up topic to Marc's thread on Outsourcing.
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com linkPersonally, I would rather see H1-B's than companies sending the work out, at least with H1-B's, some of that pay actually gets spent here in the USA and the works are assured at least minimum wage :) There is also the other side of the story, that maybe some of those coming here will actually desire to stay here and seek citizenship, thus added to those who live here that actually want to work :)
Rocky <>< Latest Code Blog Post: Linq - One-to-One issues? Latest Tech Blog Post: ESnailer... Send postal mail for free!
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Hey, I am a uk developer and come from a country which still believes in the value of a migrant workforce.(well some of us anyway - :) ) Lets be honest in every country there are good developers and crap developers. Sometimes (and only sometimes) the crap ones are too lasy too get better. Whats wrong with another country attracting the best developers from other places and using them to increase the productivity of your business - this generates more money ,which means a stronger / better economy , The public pay less taxes as more people are employed (in theory at least, its a rare government thats says - oh we took more money than we need have some back, they are more likely to reduce next years tax bill - ok I'm an optimist ) and therefore its better for "joe public". Economic migrants are one of the reasons the UK for all its small size (most US states are bigger) is one of the top economies of the world. Its not just a case of get em from abroad and pay em peanuts either - although there is a tendency for that in certain areas of the economy - in general a developer in the UK gets a UK salary no matter where they are from. (I am not talking about outsourcing here ) The big problem is that you have to ensure that the quota levels are high but not so high that your good local IT developers are unemployed - just the crap ones who will have to get better or change careers. Whoever decides that level will certainly be way more capable than I am. Actually I think the lack of quotas in the UK is a bad thing as it can mean econmic migrants comming over to the UK , not being able to find what they want to do and what they are good at (say IT) and having to change jobs just to survive. Either that or having to leave the UK. I think a quota system (as used by Australia or the US) would reduce a lot of this "churn" which would be good. So people, think about it, econmic migrants can be good for your country. Martin
life is a bowl of cherries go on take a byte
MartyK2007 wrote:
So people, think about it, econmic migrants can be good for your country.
Or they can be doctors who want to blow up airports. This is not a problem only in the UK, since the US likewise imports many of its MD's from countries where English is a second language. In the U.S. many of them come in on H1Bs. Perhaps in the UK foreign scabs don't work for less than the going rate, but here in the U.S. there have been studies that show that imports are popular because they work for considerably less money.
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
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brucerchapman wrote:
I never once heard the words 'you've stolen someone's job' or 'cheap labour'.
Being white and from a similar culture makes a difference :rolleyes:
brucerchapman wrote:
I can't help but think a ground shift in opinion has taken place and opinions are now set in a new direction.
Australia has often followed American trends and I think this will happen here as well. Pollies have got a lot to gain by whipping up a nationalist fervour.
I enjoy occasionally wandering around randomly, and often find that when I do so, I get to where I wanted to be [^]. Awasu 2.3 [^]: A free RSS/Atom feed reader with support for Code Project. 50% discount on the paid editions for CP members!
Taka Muraoka wrote:
Australia has often followed American trends...
You could almost change often for always.
Taka Muraoka wrote:
Pollies have got a lot to gain by whipping up a nationalist fervour.
Do we have nationalist fervour over here? I seemed to have misplaced mine, do you have one I can borrow?
Michael Martin Australia "I controlled my laughter and simple said "No,I am very busy,so I can't write any code for you". The moment they heard this all the smiling face turned into a sad looking face and one of them farted. So I had to leave the place as soon as possible." - Mr.Prakash 24/04/2004
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Oakman wrote:
in manager-speak arrogant is shorthand for "doesn't brownnose."
Bullshit. You don't have to be subservient to be a team player but you can't be an arrogant prima donna programmer either.
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Shog9 wrote:
And with that, Paul closed his browser, sipped his herbal tea, fixed the flower in his hair, and smiled brightly at the multitude of cute, furry animals flocking around the grassy hillside where he sat coding Ruby on his Mac...
Paul Watson wrote:
You don't have to be subservient to be a team player but you can't be an arrogant prima donna programmer either.
Perhaps in Ireland and South Africa that's true - I wouldn't presume to speak for countries I am not a native of.
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
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Paul Watson wrote:
You don't have to be subservient to be a team player but you can't be an arrogant prima donna programmer either.
Perhaps in Ireland and South Africa that's true - I wouldn't presume to speak for countries I am not a native of.
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
Arrogant prima dona programmers make for effective team members in your country?
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Shog9 wrote:
And with that, Paul closed his browser, sipped his herbal tea, fixed the flower in his hair, and smiled brightly at the multitude of cute, furry animals flocking around the grassy hillside where he sat coding Ruby on his Mac...
-
MartyK2007 wrote:
So people, think about it, econmic migrants can be good for your country.
Or they can be doctors who want to blow up airports. This is not a problem only in the UK, since the US likewise imports many of its MD's from countries where English is a second language. In the U.S. many of them come in on H1Bs. Perhaps in the UK foreign scabs don't work for less than the going rate, but here in the U.S. there have been studies that show that imports are popular because they work for considerably less money.
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
>> "Or they can be doctors who want to blow up airports." or they can be US postal workers shooting up schools. My point is that all countries have terrorists/ bad people. Preventing H1B's may stop foreign militants but it certainly wont stop home grown talent. In the meantime H1Bs will help the econmy of the US wont they? or Have I got it wrong? Martin
life is a bowl of cherries go on take a byte
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I used to work in the USA on a H1-B visa. I left in 2000 with 2 years left to run on my visa because I preferred my own country. At the time the people I worked with seemed genuinely sad that I didn't want to stay, as they seemed to welcome diversity in their workplace. I never once heard the words 'you've stolen someone's job' or 'cheap labour'. The only articles I read about H1-B visas mentioned the fact that they 'ran out' earlier each year than the last. It seems very strange to me that the country and people I knew back then seems to bear little resemblance to the one I read about now. I wonder what has changed to turn the attitude from 'your welcome in our country, work with us to build something great' to 'go home, foreign worker'. Perhaps it's a vocal minority, but I can't help but think a ground shift in opinion has taken place and opinions are now set in a new direction.
Bruce Chapman iFinity.com.au - Websites and Software Development Plithy remark available in Beta 2
brucerchapman wrote:
I wonder what has changed to turn the attitude from 'your welcome in our country, work with us to build something great' to 'go home, foreign worker'. Perhaps it's a vocal minority, but I can't help but think a ground shift in opinion has taken place and opinions are now set in a new direction.
Are you aware that most H1B visas last year were filled by outsourcing firms, many of which will not hire U.S. Citizens? Are you aware that companies like TJX will fire programmers who complain about H1Bs, claiming the complainant is racist? Are you aware that the average H1B salary is about 50K, the average citizen's salary about 75K? You are right: there is a groundswell of opinion - it will get bigger and louder as time goes on.
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
-
These guys are managers. One of them pretty much says that he chose subservient 'team players' over someone with all the skills needed but was arrogant - in manager-speak arrogant is shorthand for "doesn't brownnose." There are plenty of Americans who support H1B gutting of American technology. There are also Americans who sell hard drugs to kids.
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
Absolutely. There are many pro-H1B writers at eweek, and I regularly get into debates with their findings. They are writing, using hearsay, and I have direct experience. They argue back a forth, until I ask for hard facts about how it actually helps the U.S. economy.
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These guys are managers. One of them pretty much says that he chose subservient 'team players' over someone with all the skills needed but was arrogant - in manager-speak arrogant is shorthand for "doesn't brownnose." There are plenty of Americans who support H1B gutting of American technology. There are also Americans who sell hard drugs to kids.
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
Oakman wrote:
chose subservient 'team players' over someone with all the skills needed
That just says to me that the candidate obviously didn't have the skills required. One of the skills was effectiveness in a team, and evidently they didn't have it, or didn't demonstrate it effectively. I don't know the authors of the blogs, but perhaps arrogant in this case actually meant arrogant. Having someone on a team like that is a real drain. - Phil
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Arrogant prima dona programmers make for effective team members in your country?
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Shog9 wrote:
And with that, Paul closed his browser, sipped his herbal tea, fixed the flower in his hair, and smiled brightly at the multitude of cute, furry animals flocking around the grassy hillside where he sat coding Ruby on his Mac...
Effective? Heck, we're the foundation on which this great country is built! ;) :rolleyes:
----
Yes, but can you blame them for doing so if that's the only legal way they can hire programmers they want at the rate they can afford?
-- Nish on sketchy hiring practices
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Oakman wrote:
chose subservient 'team players' over someone with all the skills needed
That just says to me that the candidate obviously didn't have the skills required. One of the skills was effectiveness in a team, and evidently they didn't have it, or didn't demonstrate it effectively. I don't know the authors of the blogs, but perhaps arrogant in this case actually meant arrogant. Having someone on a team like that is a real drain. - Phil
Phil Martin... wrote:
Having someone on a team like that is a real drain.
Yep, it threatens the hell out of second-raters. The irony is that on real teams, many of the members are arrogant, demanding, and get paid more than their managers. Can you imagine Joe Torre saying, "I want to fire Derek Jeeter, because he's not a team player."? Only in the coporate world are the managers the stars.
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
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>> "Or they can be doctors who want to blow up airports." or they can be US postal workers shooting up schools. My point is that all countries have terrorists/ bad people. Preventing H1B's may stop foreign militants but it certainly wont stop home grown talent. In the meantime H1Bs will help the econmy of the US wont they? or Have I got it wrong? Martin
life is a bowl of cherries go on take a byte
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MartyK2007 wrote:
Have I got it wrong
Yes.
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
Oakman wrote:
Yes.
How??? Martin
life is a bowl of cherries go on take a byte
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brucerchapman wrote:
I wonder what has changed to turn the attitude from 'your welcome in our country, work with us to build something great' to 'go home, foreign worker'. Perhaps it's a vocal minority, but I can't help but think a ground shift in opinion has taken place and opinions are now set in a new direction.
Are you aware that most H1B visas last year were filled by outsourcing firms, many of which will not hire U.S. Citizens? Are you aware that companies like TJX will fire programmers who complain about H1Bs, claiming the complainant is racist? Are you aware that the average H1B salary is about 50K, the average citizen's salary about 75K? You are right: there is a groundswell of opinion - it will get bigger and louder as time goes on.
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
Oakman wrote:
Are you aware that most H1B visas last year were filled by outsourcing firms,
perhaps thats the problem - prevent outsourcing firms from getting H1B visa people and instead let mainstream US companies get most of them . if so thats an implementation problem , rather than a "H1B's" are bad in general.
Oakman wrote:
Are you aware that the average H1B salary is about 50K, the average citizen's salary about 75K?
so change the law so that H!B's must have parity in the pay market?? or better yet handle the quotas so that a H1B is only used when you cant find a US citizen. Again surely its "Just" an implementation problem? Martin
life is a bowl of cherries go on take a byte