A couple of pro-H1B articles by Americans
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MartyK2007 wrote:
Have I got it wrong
Yes.
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
Oakman wrote:
Yes.
How??? Martin
life is a bowl of cherries go on take a byte
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brucerchapman wrote:
I wonder what has changed to turn the attitude from 'your welcome in our country, work with us to build something great' to 'go home, foreign worker'. Perhaps it's a vocal minority, but I can't help but think a ground shift in opinion has taken place and opinions are now set in a new direction.
Are you aware that most H1B visas last year were filled by outsourcing firms, many of which will not hire U.S. Citizens? Are you aware that companies like TJX will fire programmers who complain about H1Bs, claiming the complainant is racist? Are you aware that the average H1B salary is about 50K, the average citizen's salary about 75K? You are right: there is a groundswell of opinion - it will get bigger and louder as time goes on.
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
Oakman wrote:
Are you aware that most H1B visas last year were filled by outsourcing firms,
perhaps thats the problem - prevent outsourcing firms from getting H1B visa people and instead let mainstream US companies get most of them . if so thats an implementation problem , rather than a "H1B's" are bad in general.
Oakman wrote:
Are you aware that the average H1B salary is about 50K, the average citizen's salary about 75K?
so change the law so that H!B's must have parity in the pay market?? or better yet handle the quotas so that a H1B is only used when you cant find a US citizen. Again surely its "Just" an implementation problem? Martin
life is a bowl of cherries go on take a byte
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Oakman wrote:
Yes.
How??? Martin
life is a bowl of cherries go on take a byte
MartyK2007 wrote:
Oakman wrote: Yes. How???
Interesting Logic: A. You hand me a ten dollar bill that has a picture of Indira Ghandi on it instead of Alex Hamilton and ask, "Is this a counterfeit?" B. I say, "Yes." C. You say, "Please give me a real one." You offered up the proposition that H1Bs taking jobs that could be filled by U.S. citizens was good for the U.S. economy. So how about you provide proof - or retract.
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
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MartyK2007 wrote:
Oakman wrote: Yes. How???
Interesting Logic: A. You hand me a ten dollar bill that has a picture of Indira Ghandi on it instead of Alex Hamilton and ask, "Is this a counterfeit?" B. I say, "Yes." C. You say, "Please give me a real one." You offered up the proposition that H1Bs taking jobs that could be filled by U.S. citizens was good for the U.S. economy. So how about you provide proof - or retract.
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
Oakman wrote:
A. You hand me a ten dollar bill that has a picture of Indira Ghandi on it instead of Alex Hamilton and ask, "Is this a counterfeit?"
Ah but I didnt give you money - I gave you a programmer from abroad that is the equal of some programmers in the US and asked him to write a program for you . does the program work is the question.
Oakman wrote:
You offered up the proposition that H1Bs taking jobs that could be filled by U.S. citizens was good for the U.S. economy. So how about you provide proof - or retract.
Actually I offered up the proposition that H1B's in general are good for the US economy where there jobs that could not be filled by US Citizens because they were only Crap or incapable of doing that job. The reasons why its good in the above case is: 1 they pay tax on the income they make. Therefore more mony for government and economy at large. 2 The programs they write will probably help increase the prodcutiveness of the company , meaning greater profits and greater taxes which means healther econmy 3. The US programmer who are incapable of that particular job will either have to: find a job they are capable of (and pay tax on their income ......) or retrain and become capable of fulfilling the role for when the next US company needs that skill set. seems to me as more tax gets paid to the government , they it can use more money to develop the econmey - hence improving it. Martin
life is a bowl of cherries go on take a byte
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Oakman wrote:
Are you aware that most H1B visas last year were filled by outsourcing firms,
perhaps thats the problem - prevent outsourcing firms from getting H1B visa people and instead let mainstream US companies get most of them . if so thats an implementation problem , rather than a "H1B's" are bad in general.
Oakman wrote:
Are you aware that the average H1B salary is about 50K, the average citizen's salary about 75K?
so change the law so that H!B's must have parity in the pay market?? or better yet handle the quotas so that a H1B is only used when you cant find a US citizen. Again surely its "Just" an implementation problem? Martin
life is a bowl of cherries go on take a byte
MartyK2007 wrote:
if so thats an implementation problem , rather than a "H1B's" are bad in general.
H1Bs were originally created when the Congress caved in to threats from large companies to outsource their IT departments. Of course the outsourcing continued and the outfits that do it are now staffed by H1Bs. And you suggest this is an implementation problem??? That's like calling WWII a failure to communicate.
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
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MartyK2007 wrote:
if so thats an implementation problem , rather than a "H1B's" are bad in general.
H1Bs were originally created when the Congress caved in to threats from large companies to outsource their IT departments. Of course the outsourcing continued and the outfits that do it are now staffed by H1Bs. And you suggest this is an implementation problem??? That's like calling WWII a failure to communicate.
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
Oakman wrote:
outfits that do it are now staffed by H1Bs. And you suggest this is an implementation problem??
yes I do . If the perceived and generally accepted problem is that H1Bs are being abused by outsourcing then change the rules so they cant be. Dont stamp your metaphorical feet and remove H1B's all togeather when they can be of benefit.
Oakman wrote:
That's like calling WWII a failure to communicate.
Actually it wasnt because people were killed in WWII! Martin
life is a bowl of cherries go on take a byte
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MartyK2007 wrote:
Oakman wrote: Yes. How???
Interesting Logic: A. You hand me a ten dollar bill that has a picture of Indira Ghandi on it instead of Alex Hamilton and ask, "Is this a counterfeit?" B. I say, "Yes." C. You say, "Please give me a real one." You offered up the proposition that H1Bs taking jobs that could be filled by U.S. citizens was good for the U.S. economy. So how about you provide proof - or retract.
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
I can't speak for the original poster, but I'll put forward my own proposition. A H1B's who is a better candidate that the US applicants taking jobs is good for the local and national economy because it a) as a higher probability of making a better product b) which in turn generates more revenue, which increases company and economic growth, allowing positions to open up to the lesser skilled US workers. I have no proof, but it sounds reasonable enough to me. Which is similar to what the original blog posters were on about. They found better suited overseas applicants, but the difficulty or impossibility in employing them made the less-suitable US applicants the only option, to the detriment of their business. It strikes me that hiring an employee that is unsuitable could potentially be very bad if the cost of training was too high for the business endeavor to survive. On the flip side it could be very good if the employeer trains them the employee hangs around. - Phil
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Taka Muraoka wrote:
Australia has often followed American trends...
You could almost change often for always.
Taka Muraoka wrote:
Pollies have got a lot to gain by whipping up a nationalist fervour.
Do we have nationalist fervour over here? I seemed to have misplaced mine, do you have one I can borrow?
Michael Martin Australia "I controlled my laughter and simple said "No,I am very busy,so I can't write any code for you". The moment they heard this all the smiling face turned into a sad looking face and one of them farted. So I had to leave the place as soon as possible." - Mr.Prakash 24/04/2004
Michael Martin wrote:
Do we have nationalist fervour over here? I seemed to have misplaced mine, do you have one I can borrow?
It almost feels like the whole country has been one giant social experiement to see if any sort of national identity can be bred out of a population, while introducing an insatiable need for gadgets and gizmos in flashy packaging. I am really hoping the trend moves away from the whole fear of the outsiders thing. We don't even HAVE a national identity, but somehow we've managed to acquire a fear of anyone who doesn't meet whatever definition it is this month. Which I find so very strange, since going back only a handful of generations, the vast majority of us are ALL outsiders. I find it so very.... odd.
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Oakman wrote:
A. You hand me a ten dollar bill that has a picture of Indira Ghandi on it instead of Alex Hamilton and ask, "Is this a counterfeit?"
Ah but I didnt give you money - I gave you a programmer from abroad that is the equal of some programmers in the US and asked him to write a program for you . does the program work is the question.
Oakman wrote:
You offered up the proposition that H1Bs taking jobs that could be filled by U.S. citizens was good for the U.S. economy. So how about you provide proof - or retract.
Actually I offered up the proposition that H1B's in general are good for the US economy where there jobs that could not be filled by US Citizens because they were only Crap or incapable of doing that job. The reasons why its good in the above case is: 1 they pay tax on the income they make. Therefore more mony for government and economy at large. 2 The programs they write will probably help increase the prodcutiveness of the company , meaning greater profits and greater taxes which means healther econmy 3. The US programmer who are incapable of that particular job will either have to: find a job they are capable of (and pay tax on their income ......) or retrain and become capable of fulfilling the role for when the next US company needs that skill set. seems to me as more tax gets paid to the government , they it can use more money to develop the econmey - hence improving it. Martin
life is a bowl of cherries go on take a byte
MartyK2007 wrote:
Ah but I didnt give you money - I gave you a programmer
Sorry, I didn't mean to confuse you by using symbolic logic.
MartyK2007 wrote:
there jobs that could not be filled by US Citizens because they were only Crap or incapable of doing that job
Certainly there are U.S. programmers who can't fill any particular job - but that does not mean that no U.S. Programmers who can't fill that particular job - hate to use logic again but the part does NOT represent the whole. As far as the company is concerned, it's (usually) not that there aren't any U.S. programmers capable of doing the work, it's that there aren't any U.S. programmers capable of doing the work willing to work for slave labor prices.
MartyK2007 wrote:
they pay tax on the income they make. Therefore more mony for government and economy at large.
Since the citizen-programmer would make more money he'd pay more taxes; your argument is bass-ackwards. And since he wouldn't send remittances overseas, more of that money would be spent in the U.S. It seems to me that your thesis is that there aren't enough good U.S. programmers. I have not seen any reason to believe that - perhaps you'd like to provide citations?
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
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MartyK2007 wrote:
So people, think about it, econmic migrants can be good for your country.
Or they can be doctors who want to blow up airports. This is not a problem only in the UK, since the US likewise imports many of its MD's from countries where English is a second language. In the U.S. many of them come in on H1Bs. Perhaps in the UK foreign scabs don't work for less than the going rate, but here in the U.S. there have been studies that show that imports are popular because they work for considerably less money.
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
Oakman wrote:
Or they can be doctors who want to blow up airports. This is not a problem only in the UK, since the US likewise imports many of its MD's from countries where English is a second language. In the U.S. many of them come in on H1Bs.
Do you truly fear the unknown that much? You don't have to be an employed doctor to want to blow up an airport. You can be an unemployed bum and still want to do that. And worse yet, you could be born in the same country of the air port you want to blow up! I find the whole doctor-blowing-up-airports a strange dichotomy though. I wonder how many people he had helped heal during his training, and during his service. Why be a doctor and help people to raise funds to kill people. A strange one! - Phil
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One guy's view on H1-B visas [^] On H1-B Visas[^] I read these two blog articles today and thought it interesting that they are both pro-H1B and are written by American software developers. I thought this would be a nice follow-up topic to Marc's thread on Outsourcing.
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com linkI reckon that is a great couple of opinion pieces. It is nice to see the other side of the discussion. Thanks Nish! - Phil
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Oakman wrote:
outfits that do it are now staffed by H1Bs. And you suggest this is an implementation problem??
yes I do . If the perceived and generally accepted problem is that H1Bs are being abused by outsourcing then change the rules so they cant be. Dont stamp your metaphorical feet and remove H1B's all togeather when they can be of benefit.
Oakman wrote:
That's like calling WWII a failure to communicate.
Actually it wasnt because people were killed in WWII! Martin
life is a bowl of cherries go on take a byte
MartyK2007 wrote:
Dont stamp your metaphorical feet and remove H1B's all togeather when they can be of benefit.
They can? Why? Do you believe that there aren't good U.S. programmers?
MartyK2007 wrote:
Oakman wrote: That's like calling WWII a failure to communicate. Actually it wasnt because people were killed in WWII!
Well since you seem to understand metaphors, perhaps you should study up on similes.
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
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I can't speak for the original poster, but I'll put forward my own proposition. A H1B's who is a better candidate that the US applicants taking jobs is good for the local and national economy because it a) as a higher probability of making a better product b) which in turn generates more revenue, which increases company and economic growth, allowing positions to open up to the lesser skilled US workers. I have no proof, but it sounds reasonable enough to me. Which is similar to what the original blog posters were on about. They found better suited overseas applicants, but the difficulty or impossibility in employing them made the less-suitable US applicants the only option, to the detriment of their business. It strikes me that hiring an employee that is unsuitable could potentially be very bad if the cost of training was too high for the business endeavor to survive. On the flip side it could be very good if the employeer trains them the employee hangs around. - Phil
Phil Martin... wrote:
less-suitable US applicants. . . .the lesser skilled US workers
Actually, my experience is that far fewer of the bargain-basement H1Bs hired for 50K were worth their paychecks than the 75K - 100K citizens. But you can believe whatever you want about the U.S. programmer.
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
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Oakman wrote:
Or they can be doctors who want to blow up airports. This is not a problem only in the UK, since the US likewise imports many of its MD's from countries where English is a second language. In the U.S. many of them come in on H1Bs.
Do you truly fear the unknown that much? You don't have to be an employed doctor to want to blow up an airport. You can be an unemployed bum and still want to do that. And worse yet, you could be born in the same country of the air port you want to blow up! I find the whole doctor-blowing-up-airports a strange dichotomy though. I wonder how many people he had helped heal during his training, and during his service. Why be a doctor and help people to raise funds to kill people. A strange one! - Phil
Phil Martin... wrote:
Do you truly fear the unknown that much?
Nope. Do you fear the truth that much?
Phil Martin... wrote:
You don't have to be an employed doctor to want to blow up an airport. You can be an unemployed bum and still want to do that. And worse yet, you could be born in the same country of the air port you want to blow up!
You are right. But these doctors were employed in the UK. The bums who killed friends of mine on 9/11 weren't born in this country. Some of them, including their leader, were here on (expired) work visas. Those are known facts not vaporous maybes and suppositions.
Phil Martin... wrote:
Why be a doctor and help people to raise funds to kill people. A strange one!
Barbarians with skills are still barbarians.
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
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Arrogant prima dona programmers make for effective team members in your country?
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Shog9 wrote:
And with that, Paul closed his browser, sipped his herbal tea, fixed the flower in his hair, and smiled brightly at the multitude of cute, furry animals flocking around the grassy hillside where he sat coding Ruby on his Mac...
Paul Watson wrote:
Arrogant prima dona programmers make for effective team members in your country?
Arrogant and Prima Donna are pejoratives used by second-raters. I was referring to your claim that you didn't have to be subservient to be a team player in your countries, as I think you knew.
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
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Michael Martin wrote:
Do we have nationalist fervour over here? I seemed to have misplaced mine, do you have one I can borrow?
It almost feels like the whole country has been one giant social experiement to see if any sort of national identity can be bred out of a population, while introducing an insatiable need for gadgets and gizmos in flashy packaging. I am really hoping the trend moves away from the whole fear of the outsiders thing. We don't even HAVE a national identity, but somehow we've managed to acquire a fear of anyone who doesn't meet whatever definition it is this month. Which I find so very strange, since going back only a handful of generations, the vast majority of us are ALL outsiders. I find it so very.... odd.
Phil Martin... wrote:
It almost feels like the whole country has been one giant social experiement to see if any sort of national identity can be bred out of a population, while introducing an insatiable need for gadgets and gizmos in flashy packaging.
Now just hang on there young'n, don't you be pickin' on my shiny flahsy gizmos. They're the only thing keeping me interested these days.
Phil Martin... wrote:
I am really hoping the trend moves away from the whole fear of the outsiders thing. We don't even HAVE a national identity, but somehow we've managed to acquire a fear of anyone who doesn't meet whatever definition it is this month. Which I find so very strange, since going back only a handful of generations, the vast majority of us are ALL outsiders. I find it so very.... odd.
I hope you realise that our monthly definition is handed on by Little Johnny directly from what W tells him too. I liked the way news told us tonight the W in having a good hard think about the whole middle east occupation and in the same breath said "...and so is Johnny". If W pulled up too fast Johnny's head would disappear up his arse.
Michael Martin Australia "I controlled my laughter and simple said "No,I am very busy,so I can't write any code for you". The moment they heard this all the smiling face turned into a sad looking face and one of them farted. So I had to leave the place as soon as possible." - Mr.Prakash 24/04/2004
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Paul Watson wrote:
Arrogant prima dona programmers make for effective team members in your country?
Arrogant and Prima Donna are pejoratives used by second-raters. I was referring to your claim that you didn't have to be subservient to be a team player in your countries, as I think you knew.
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
Oakman wrote:
Arrogant and Prima Donna are pejoratives used by second-raters
Yes, that is what prima donas always say when confronted with their arrogance.
Oakman wrote:
I was referring to your claim that you didn't have to be subservient to be a team player in your countries, as I think you knew.
You weren't clear but I am suprised you have to be subservient to be part of a team in your country. How does it function with such narrow mindedness? Good teams are well structured, not master and slave.
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Shog9 wrote:
And with that, Paul closed his browser, sipped his herbal tea, fixed the flower in his hair, and smiled brightly at the multitude of cute, furry animals flocking around the grassy hillside where he sat coding Ruby on his Mac...
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Phil Martin... wrote:
less-suitable US applicants. . . .the lesser skilled US workers
Actually, my experience is that far fewer of the bargain-basement H1Bs hired for 50K were worth their paychecks than the 75K - 100K citizens. But you can believe whatever you want about the U.S. programmer.
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
Ahh I see, switching around what I said, clever! The specific scenario we are talking about is when the overseas applicant is better suited to the position than the local applicants. That is the situation both the original blog posters described. Now the case where a lesser suited applicant is hired that will do worse job for less money, that is an entirely different kettle of fish! - Phil
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MartyK2007 wrote:
Ah but I didnt give you money - I gave you a programmer
Sorry, I didn't mean to confuse you by using symbolic logic.
MartyK2007 wrote:
there jobs that could not be filled by US Citizens because they were only Crap or incapable of doing that job
Certainly there are U.S. programmers who can't fill any particular job - but that does not mean that no U.S. Programmers who can't fill that particular job - hate to use logic again but the part does NOT represent the whole. As far as the company is concerned, it's (usually) not that there aren't any U.S. programmers capable of doing the work, it's that there aren't any U.S. programmers capable of doing the work willing to work for slave labor prices.
MartyK2007 wrote:
they pay tax on the income they make. Therefore more mony for government and economy at large.
Since the citizen-programmer would make more money he'd pay more taxes; your argument is bass-ackwards. And since he wouldn't send remittances overseas, more of that money would be spent in the U.S. It seems to me that your thesis is that there aren't enough good U.S. programmers. I have not seen any reason to believe that - perhaps you'd like to provide citations?
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
Oakman wrote:
Sorry, I didn't mean to confuse you by using symbolic logic.
no you didnt - I just think the symbol you used was incorrect for the issue.
Oakman wrote:
As far as the company is concerned, it's (usually) not that there aren't any U.S. programmers capable of doing the work, it's that there aren't any U.S. programmers capable of doing the work willing to work for slave labor prices.
is as true as far as it goes but there are circumsatnces I am sure where the company wants specialised knowledge (perhaps some specific and unusal SAP knowledge)and in the area where the company is based there are no US programmers who know it or who are willing to move to the companies catchment/commutable area. In that circumstance I would suggest that the labour price is not the primary motivating issue.
Oakman wrote:
Since the citizen-programmer would make more money he'd pay more taxes; your argument is bass-ackwards
not if there were no citizen programmers capable of that role , which is the scenario I was talking about.
Oakman wrote:
And since he wouldn't send remittances overseas, more of that money would be spent in the U.S.
Assuming the migrant send his money abroad and hasnt brought his familly with him (who will prbably work in other labour areas and pay tax themselves)
Oakman wrote:
It seems to me that your thesis is that there aren't enough good U.S. programmers. I have not seen any reason to believe that - perhaps you'd like to provide citations?
I dont belive all US programmers are bad - as anywhere else there are the good , the bad and the untrained/inexperianced. My understanding was that the lack of qualified and experianced people in spcialist areas was the reason H1Bs where introduced and quotas set. Doesnt the wording of the bill introducing H1B's imply that?? (A friend of mine seems to think it does but I havent read it) Martin
life is a bowl of cherries go on take a byte
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Phil Martin... wrote:
Do you truly fear the unknown that much?
Nope. Do you fear the truth that much?
Phil Martin... wrote:
You don't have to be an employed doctor to want to blow up an airport. You can be an unemployed bum and still want to do that. And worse yet, you could be born in the same country of the air port you want to blow up!
You are right. But these doctors were employed in the UK. The bums who killed friends of mine on 9/11 weren't born in this country. Some of them, including their leader, were here on (expired) work visas. Those are known facts not vaporous maybes and suppositions.
Phil Martin... wrote:
Why be a doctor and help people to raise funds to kill people. A strange one!
Barbarians with skills are still barbarians.
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
Oakman wrote:
Nope. Do you fear the truth that much?
I don't think so, but I'll let you know when I find some!
Oakman wrote:
You are right. But these doctors were employed in the UK. The bums who killed friends of mine on 9/11 weren't born in this country. Some of them, including their leader, were here on (expired) work visas. Those are known facts not vaporous maybes and suppositions.
I am sorry about your friends, I wouldn't wish that on anyone. But I wonder how many times your friends have been saved by foreign workers doing emergency services? That the individuals came here and did wrong is horrid beyond argument, but their actions do not invalidate the tools the mechansims they used to achieve it.
Oakman wrote:
Barbarians with skills are still barbarians.
I'm not talking about skills, I'm talking about using them to actually help people, i.e. doing the opposite of their apparent end goal. That is the bit I do not understand.