A couple of pro-H1B articles by Americans
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MartyK2007 wrote:
So people, think about it, econmic migrants can be good for your country.
Or they can be doctors who want to blow up airports. This is not a problem only in the UK, since the US likewise imports many of its MD's from countries where English is a second language. In the U.S. many of them come in on H1Bs. Perhaps in the UK foreign scabs don't work for less than the going rate, but here in the U.S. there have been studies that show that imports are popular because they work for considerably less money.
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
Doctors are more likely to come on the J-1 visa which requires them to return to their home countries for 2 years before they are eligible to apply for a green card in the US. Either that, or they have to work for 5 years in an area underserved by medical professionals...such as Indian reservations or rural parts of Arkansas, Kentucky, Tennessee, etc. My experience with Indian H1-B employees in 2000 was that while being employed by my company (I worked for an Indian company doing on-site work in the US), they had multiple H1-B visas from several different (usually, Indian outsourcing) companies and could jump sjip at the first opportunity. So, we not only paid above-market wages, we paid bonuses for working more than 40 hours a week. Tell me that American citizens working as programmers at Microsoft, Google or Oracle got paid for working overtime. PS. After the 2001 dotcom meltdown, it was a different story. You could get an Indian programmer for $50/hour in New Jersey and $35/hour in Kansas City.
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Michael Martin wrote:
Now just hang on there young'n, don't you be pickin' on my shiny flahsy gizmos. They're the only thing keeping me interested these days.
Sorry there ol' timer, you won't find me back talkin' me elders again, honest sir, you won't! I dunno. I just looked at the shinies each year, and it seems for the same amount of money each year I could get a newer gadget. I lost track of it all at some point, I'm not sure when though. Buuuuut it DID get me one huge benefit. When you encounter those people, that upon discovering you are a 'computer' person, you can honestly say "I don't know" when they ask you stuff! It's awesome!
Michael Martin wrote:
If W pulled up too fast Johnny's head would disappear up his arse.
:laugh: It's funny because it's true. :sigh: And yeah, I realise where the monthly definition is supposed to come from, but I aint going to buy it. But one of the suckier parts of a two party political system is there just isn't much choice to be had. I think "disillusioned" sums up my political outlook at the moment. But yet again, I can't help but think that is what they want me to feel. And that whole debacle of Johnny now reconsidering occupation, blech! I think I'll just watch the US news 12 hours earlier to find out what will happen in australian political news the next day. - Phil
Phil Martin... wrote:
But one of the suckier parts of a two party political system is there just isn't much choice to be had.
Yeah, I know what you mean. When I was a kid watching on and trying to understand politics and other grown things the political landscape was pretty much set in stone. Labor - for the working man, couldn't give a rat's arse for big business and hated the Liberals. Liberal - for big business, had no time for the working man and hated Labor. They we more different than chalk and cheese. Now both are so far in the middle they are overlapping each other. And they couldn't be more the same. Johnny - short balding twat. Kevvy - short twat with hair.
Michael Martin Australia "I controlled my laughter and simple said "No,I am very busy,so I can't write any code for you". The moment they heard this all the smiling face turned into a sad looking face and one of them farted. So I had to leave the place as soon as possible." - Mr.Prakash 24/04/2004
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Absolutely. There are many pro-H1B writers at eweek, and I regularly get into debates with their findings. They are writing, using hearsay, and I have direct experience. They argue back a forth, until I ask for hard facts about how it actually helps the U.S. economy.
ednrgc wrote:
They argue back a forth, until I ask for hard facts about how it actually helps the U.S. economy.
They rent apartments, buy cars, and a few years later buy houses. So thedy are pumping money into the economy. Don't you think that helps the economy?
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brucerchapman wrote:
I wonder what has changed to turn the attitude from 'your welcome in our country, work with us to build something great' to 'go home, foreign worker'. Perhaps it's a vocal minority, but I can't help but think a ground shift in opinion has taken place and opinions are now set in a new direction.
Are you aware that most H1B visas last year were filled by outsourcing firms, many of which will not hire U.S. Citizens? Are you aware that companies like TJX will fire programmers who complain about H1Bs, claiming the complainant is racist? Are you aware that the average H1B salary is about 50K, the average citizen's salary about 75K? You are right: there is a groundswell of opinion - it will get bigger and louder as time goes on.
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
Oakman wrote:
Are you aware that most H1B visas last year were filled by outsourcing firms, many of which will not hire U.S. Citizens?
Are you aware that Infosys, wanting to move up the value chain, opened a consulting practice and hired a senior American executive with a salary of $1 million and hired him a mainly American staff with excessive salaries? Having worked with a lot of American executives, I can bet that those millions of dollars were a sheer waste!
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Oakman wrote:
Sorry, I didn't mean to confuse you by using symbolic logic.
no you didnt - I just think the symbol you used was incorrect for the issue.
Oakman wrote:
As far as the company is concerned, it's (usually) not that there aren't any U.S. programmers capable of doing the work, it's that there aren't any U.S. programmers capable of doing the work willing to work for slave labor prices.
is as true as far as it goes but there are circumsatnces I am sure where the company wants specialised knowledge (perhaps some specific and unusal SAP knowledge)and in the area where the company is based there are no US programmers who know it or who are willing to move to the companies catchment/commutable area. In that circumstance I would suggest that the labour price is not the primary motivating issue.
Oakman wrote:
Since the citizen-programmer would make more money he'd pay more taxes; your argument is bass-ackwards
not if there were no citizen programmers capable of that role , which is the scenario I was talking about.
Oakman wrote:
And since he wouldn't send remittances overseas, more of that money would be spent in the U.S.
Assuming the migrant send his money abroad and hasnt brought his familly with him (who will prbably work in other labour areas and pay tax themselves)
Oakman wrote:
It seems to me that your thesis is that there aren't enough good U.S. programmers. I have not seen any reason to believe that - perhaps you'd like to provide citations?
I dont belive all US programmers are bad - as anywhere else there are the good , the bad and the untrained/inexperianced. My understanding was that the lack of qualified and experianced people in spcialist areas was the reason H1Bs where introduced and quotas set. Doesnt the wording of the bill introducing H1B's imply that?? (A friend of mine seems to think it does but I havent read it) Martin
life is a bowl of cherries go on take a byte
Point by point... A) No qualified citizen workers in the area or willing to relocate... H1B Visas are supposed to be about that, but they aren't. Most H1B programmers are of limited talent and skill. I was in a position eliminated because the company got several H1B programmers in. Three months later, they called and asked me to come back. Seems their cheap "skilled" labor had poor communication skills and couldn't think oputside the box. It was taking two H1B programmers to try and keep up with the maintenance work that I did on the side while still developing new functionality, and the "group leader" of these Indian nationals couldn't imagine the outside of the paperbag his head was stuck in. I had moved on to other work and told them to get bent. The project I was on has since been cancelled, I heard, for falling so far behind (it was on schedule when I left). I have yet to see an H1B Visa worker that truly had a skill not able to be found here. Most are your basic Java or VisualStudio developer working cheap because their education was free and the lving conditions and wages back home makes $15 or $20 per hour seem like they are living in luxury. US companies hire them because they cost half of what a skilled citizen IT developer costs. There are even programs to show employers how to meet the legal requirements of advertising the job while trying to avoid having any qualified candidates apply. They'll find any way they can to disqualify any applicants, freeing them up to bring in an H1B Visa. I don't know about the UK, but if it is like Germany, title determines salary range and is mandated by the government. That isn't true in the US, where you can either go cheap and get less skilled or spend the bucks and get more skilled. Or in the case of H1Bs, go relly cheap and get somewhat skilled. B) They bring their families with them / don't send moeny overseas... No, they don't. In fact, the Visa is just for the worker. They aren't allowed to bring spouses unless the spouse gets a Visa of some sort as well. Most send money back home to their families and many live "communally" at the edge of the maximum occupancy for the little run-down apartments they live in. They don't help the housing in the communities, and their decision to cram together means less income for the apartment complexes than if the same three or four workers were american with their own places (the way we americans prefer to live).
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I'm not so sure, if you've seen some of the comments that appear regularly on this board made by "western" programmers you'd come to the conclusion that it's still 1986 and were all some sort of untouchable god-like creatures with a fundamental right to disagree with any boss no matter how limited the information, choose the programming language no matter the project etc etc. I think a lot of programmers who came through the dot com boom era and before are stuck in the past not realizing what a commodity a programmer is these days. Protectionism ultimately fails in the end. I'd like to see more innovation and less protectionism, you can only ride the PC for so long, it was never going to be an unlimited locked market for programming talent.
"I don't want more choice. I just want better things!" - Edina Monsoon
I hope the US company’s realize the benefits of outsourcing middle managers. After all project management can be treated as a commodity. It is a learned skill and is taught by many colleges, you can even get a certification for it. I also look forward to when those blood sucking often wrong reporters get outsourced... oh wait it's already happening.... http://www.endgamepr.com/blog/2007/05/19/outsourcing-journalism/[^] Share the joy.
MrPlankton
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Point by point... A) No qualified citizen workers in the area or willing to relocate... H1B Visas are supposed to be about that, but they aren't. Most H1B programmers are of limited talent and skill. I was in a position eliminated because the company got several H1B programmers in. Three months later, they called and asked me to come back. Seems their cheap "skilled" labor had poor communication skills and couldn't think oputside the box. It was taking two H1B programmers to try and keep up with the maintenance work that I did on the side while still developing new functionality, and the "group leader" of these Indian nationals couldn't imagine the outside of the paperbag his head was stuck in. I had moved on to other work and told them to get bent. The project I was on has since been cancelled, I heard, for falling so far behind (it was on schedule when I left). I have yet to see an H1B Visa worker that truly had a skill not able to be found here. Most are your basic Java or VisualStudio developer working cheap because their education was free and the lving conditions and wages back home makes $15 or $20 per hour seem like they are living in luxury. US companies hire them because they cost half of what a skilled citizen IT developer costs. There are even programs to show employers how to meet the legal requirements of advertising the job while trying to avoid having any qualified candidates apply. They'll find any way they can to disqualify any applicants, freeing them up to bring in an H1B Visa. I don't know about the UK, but if it is like Germany, title determines salary range and is mandated by the government. That isn't true in the US, where you can either go cheap and get less skilled or spend the bucks and get more skilled. Or in the case of H1Bs, go relly cheap and get somewhat skilled. B) They bring their families with them / don't send moeny overseas... No, they don't. In fact, the Visa is just for the worker. They aren't allowed to bring spouses unless the spouse gets a Visa of some sort as well. Most send money back home to their families and many live "communally" at the edge of the maximum occupancy for the little run-down apartments they live in. They don't help the housing in the communities, and their decision to cram together means less income for the apartment complexes than if the same three or four workers were american with their own places (the way we americans prefer to live).
Hi, Sorry about the job loss troubles - It must have been rough.
Draugnar wrote:
H1B Visas are supposed to be about that, but they aren't
Some are - A friend of mine is working in Atlanta on a H1 (his has some "special" peoplesoft skill) and he is on way more that $15 /hour. The Company he works for apprently could find anyone willing to move to atlanta with this skill set.
Draugnar wrote:
US companies hire them because they cost half of what a skilled citizen IT developer costs
There it seems is the bone of contention. Assuming H1B was intended the way I have been saying and everyone acknologes the cost issue as a problem , then is that not an argument for mandatory salary parity?? If the company has to pay more less the same to US and NON US then the cost issue disappears.
Draugnar wrote:
I don't know about the UK,
Its very similar to the US - no government control over job rates , perhaps US and UK should take a leaf out of germanies book. I dont know.
Draugnar wrote:
They aren't allowed to bring spouses unless the spouse gets a Visa of some sort as well
Quoting from "http://www.h1base.com/page.asp?id=40" "The worker's family may also be permitted to live in the US during the period that the H1B visa is in effect, but can not be a paid employee while on an H4 visa. During the term of the H1B visa the employee can also apply for permanent residency. This is called "Dual Intent", and is a privilege some other U.S. visas do not enjoy. " I get the impression (please correct me If I'm wrong and I dont mean to be insulting) from the rest of the text that your impression of H1B people is as being , for want of a better phrase, "3rd world" people. They dont quite know live in a "civilised" way. Is that correct? I dont know if thats true . Some cultures believe in sharing and contributing to life in a different way to those in the UK and US perhaps do. Its just different (sorry didnt mean to lecture a US person on multicultural socities :) ). Also if they are on lower pay , doesnt it make more financial sense to share? Again I can quote my friend cicumstances as I imagine he fits more correctly with "the way we americans prefer to live". He has his own apartment, is dating a US woman and is trying to immerse himself fully in US culture. I guess
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One guy's view on H1-B visas [^] On H1-B Visas[^] I read these two blog articles today and thought it interesting that they are both pro-H1B and are written by American software developers. I thought this would be a nice follow-up topic to Marc's thread on Outsourcing.
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com linkThis is one of those issues that seems to generate incredibly emotional responses and I have to admit that, looking at the bigger picture, I'm mainly just saddened by what we've come to. First off, I believe that America was built by talented, hard-working immigrants that were willing to come to this country and become Americans. We would never be as strong as we are without them and I believe we should continue to encourage participation from like-minded individuals. It saddens me that a large number of Americans seem to feel that we can afford to turn these people away. Criminals and terrorists should certainly be discouraged but not hard-working folk who are simply trying to find a better way of life. Having said that, I'm also saddened by the culture we've built where so many of our children, with their postmodern perspective on life, seem to be rejecting science and technology as viable career choices in favor of quicker (they think) paths to fame and fortune. The perception of so many of them (not all) seems to be that hard work and the pursuit of excellence in one's craft are a sucker's bet when they see the wealth and fame that we heap on performers, professional atheletes, and even reality TV "stars". To completely blame our educational system for this disenchantment is unfair (not that a lot of work isn't needed there) and fails to acknowledge our failure as a society to reward achievement in all worthwhile endeavors. How well attended is the high school science quiz contest (by non-parents) compared to the football game? We all bear responsibility for the ascendancy of entertainment and athletic achievement over scientific and/or technical prowess. What would make me happy would be a society where we understand both the importance of growing our internal brain trust, if you will, and the continuing need for talented, hard working immigrants to continue bringing new ideas to contribute to the overall quality of life here. I really don't see why it has to be one or the other as so many here seem to think.
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Hey, I am a uk developer and come from a country which still believes in the value of a migrant workforce.(well some of us anyway - :) ) Lets be honest in every country there are good developers and crap developers. Sometimes (and only sometimes) the crap ones are too lasy too get better. Whats wrong with another country attracting the best developers from other places and using them to increase the productivity of your business - this generates more money ,which means a stronger / better economy , The public pay less taxes as more people are employed (in theory at least, its a rare government thats says - oh we took more money than we need have some back, they are more likely to reduce next years tax bill - ok I'm an optimist ) and therefore its better for "joe public". Economic migrants are one of the reasons the UK for all its small size (most US states are bigger) is one of the top economies of the world. Its not just a case of get em from abroad and pay em peanuts either - although there is a tendency for that in certain areas of the economy - in general a developer in the UK gets a UK salary no matter where they are from. (I am not talking about outsourcing here ) The big problem is that you have to ensure that the quota levels are high but not so high that your good local IT developers are unemployed - just the crap ones who will have to get better or change careers. Whoever decides that level will certainly be way more capable than I am. Actually I think the lack of quotas in the UK is a bad thing as it can mean econmic migrants comming over to the UK , not being able to find what they want to do and what they are good at (say IT) and having to change jobs just to survive. Either that or having to leave the UK. I think a quota system (as used by Australia or the US) would reduce a lot of this "churn" which would be good. So people, think about it, econmic migrants can be good for your country. Martin
life is a bowl of cherries go on take a byte
Yup, exactly right. The bitching heard in response to this kind of thinking comes primarily from the underemployed who, as is typical for most people, prefer to point the blame at others rather than look closely at themselves. Good programmers, people with high technical ability, creative thinking, good social skills will always find employment at the highest level of remuneration without any effort whatsoever. The rest will struggle and rather than becoming better find it easier to blame "others" for their own shortcomings.
"I don't want more choice. I just want better things!" - Edina Monsoon
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Doctors are more likely to come on the J-1 visa which requires them to return to their home countries for 2 years before they are eligible to apply for a green card in the US. Either that, or they have to work for 5 years in an area underserved by medical professionals...such as Indian reservations or rural parts of Arkansas, Kentucky, Tennessee, etc. My experience with Indian H1-B employees in 2000 was that while being employed by my company (I worked for an Indian company doing on-site work in the US), they had multiple H1-B visas from several different (usually, Indian outsourcing) companies and could jump sjip at the first opportunity. So, we not only paid above-market wages, we paid bonuses for working more than 40 hours a week. Tell me that American citizens working as programmers at Microsoft, Google or Oracle got paid for working overtime. PS. After the 2001 dotcom meltdown, it was a different story. You could get an Indian programmer for $50/hour in New Jersey and $35/hour in Kansas City.
Vivic wrote:
My experience with Indian H1-B employees in 2000 was that while being employed by my company (I worked for an Indian company doing on-site work in the US), they had multiple H1-B visas from several different (usually, Indian outsourcing) companies and could jump sjip at the first opportunity.
Another example of corruption imported from India
Vivic wrote:
So, we not only paid above-market wages, we paid bonuses for working more than 40 hours a week. Tell me that American citizens working as programmers at Microsoft, Google or Oracle got paid for working overtime.
Never worked for those companies but in 1999 I was getting time and a half over 40 from the state of Connecticut as an indie contractor, and last year I got time and a half over 40 in South Carolina. :D
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
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MartyK2007 wrote:
Ah but I didnt give you money - I gave you a programmer
Sorry, I didn't mean to confuse you by using symbolic logic.
MartyK2007 wrote:
there jobs that could not be filled by US Citizens because they were only Crap or incapable of doing that job
Certainly there are U.S. programmers who can't fill any particular job - but that does not mean that no U.S. Programmers who can't fill that particular job - hate to use logic again but the part does NOT represent the whole. As far as the company is concerned, it's (usually) not that there aren't any U.S. programmers capable of doing the work, it's that there aren't any U.S. programmers capable of doing the work willing to work for slave labor prices.
MartyK2007 wrote:
they pay tax on the income they make. Therefore more mony for government and economy at large.
Since the citizen-programmer would make more money he'd pay more taxes; your argument is bass-ackwards. And since he wouldn't send remittances overseas, more of that money would be spent in the U.S. It seems to me that your thesis is that there aren't enough good U.S. programmers. I have not seen any reason to believe that - perhaps you'd like to provide citations?
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
Oakman wrote:
As far as the company is concerned, it's (usually) not that there aren't any U.S. programmers capable of doing the work, it's that there aren't any U.S. programmers capable of doing the work willing to work for slave labor prices.
Ok, I must call bullshit on this line of thought you are pursuing. Clearly when a company like Microsoft can't get enough programmers to work there from within the U.S., a company that easily attracts all the brightest and best from all over the U.S., one of many such U.S. companies, you can't support this line of thought. Marty has it exactly right, the argument that it's taking away jobs from U.S. programmers is clearly incorrect, what is correct is there aren't enough really good, hard working, technically excellent, socially well adjusted, in short employable programmers available. They are all taken already and *because* of the tremendous sucess of the US software industry, there aren't enough people to fill those jobs. You don't need to look far to see evidence that there are not enough good U.S. programmers it's in the news all around you every day. Every thing about the h1b visa program points to it. Do you seriously think Microsoft would go through the time and expense to build a whole campus in Vancouver BC Canada because they have a plethora of good programmers at hand in the U.S.? We're talking about a company that cares seriously about public opinion, has the money to pay well etc etc and they still can't get enough programmers domestically.
"I don't want more choice. I just want better things!" - Edina Monsoon
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Oakman wrote:
Arrogant and Prima Donna are pejoratives used by second-raters
Yes, that is what prima donas always say when confronted with their arrogance.
Oakman wrote:
I was referring to your claim that you didn't have to be subservient to be a team player in your countries, as I think you knew.
You weren't clear but I am suprised you have to be subservient to be part of a team in your country. How does it function with such narrow mindedness? Good teams are well structured, not master and slave.
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Shog9 wrote:
And with that, Paul closed his browser, sipped his herbal tea, fixed the flower in his hair, and smiled brightly at the multitude of cute, furry animals flocking around the grassy hillside where he sat coding Ruby on his Mac...
Paul Watson wrote:
Yes, that is what prima donas always say when confronted with their arrogance.
Really, always say? You must have a lot of experience at telling people they are arrogant to be able to speak so definitely. And they always call you second rate? I wonder why.
Paul Watson wrote:
You weren't clear but I am suprised you have to be subservient to be part of a team in your country
I guess you have a lot of trouble reading English - is Gaelic or Africaans your native language? Please refer back and read slowly. Perhaps it will sink in that I have, consistently, been referring to your countries and accepting your word for how things work over there. You seem to have been so eager to dump on the USA that you never understood that.
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
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Phil Martin... wrote:
Do you truly fear the unknown that much?
Nope. Do you fear the truth that much?
Phil Martin... wrote:
You don't have to be an employed doctor to want to blow up an airport. You can be an unemployed bum and still want to do that. And worse yet, you could be born in the same country of the air port you want to blow up!
You are right. But these doctors were employed in the UK. The bums who killed friends of mine on 9/11 weren't born in this country. Some of them, including their leader, were here on (expired) work visas. Those are known facts not vaporous maybes and suppositions.
Phil Martin... wrote:
Why be a doctor and help people to raise funds to kill people. A strange one!
Barbarians with skills are still barbarians.
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
Where does this all lead in the end? A giant wall around the U.S., no communications with the outside world? Some kind of crazy dystopian society that should only exist in fiction? How can so many people who have by all accounts the most abundant, safest society in the history of the human race succumb so easily to fear and paranoia?
"I don't want more choice. I just want better things!" - Edina Monsoon
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Ahh I see, switching around what I said, clever! The specific scenario we are talking about is when the overseas applicant is better suited to the position than the local applicants. That is the situation both the original blog posters described. Now the case where a lesser suited applicant is hired that will do worse job for less money, that is an entirely different kettle of fish! - Phil
Phil Martin... wrote:
Ahh I see, switching around what I said, clever!
Actually I just noted that the basis for your argument is that there are all these second-rate Americans being beat out by first-rate Indians.
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
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This is one of those issues that seems to generate incredibly emotional responses and I have to admit that, looking at the bigger picture, I'm mainly just saddened by what we've come to. First off, I believe that America was built by talented, hard-working immigrants that were willing to come to this country and become Americans. We would never be as strong as we are without them and I believe we should continue to encourage participation from like-minded individuals. It saddens me that a large number of Americans seem to feel that we can afford to turn these people away. Criminals and terrorists should certainly be discouraged but not hard-working folk who are simply trying to find a better way of life. Having said that, I'm also saddened by the culture we've built where so many of our children, with their postmodern perspective on life, seem to be rejecting science and technology as viable career choices in favor of quicker (they think) paths to fame and fortune. The perception of so many of them (not all) seems to be that hard work and the pursuit of excellence in one's craft are a sucker's bet when they see the wealth and fame that we heap on performers, professional atheletes, and even reality TV "stars". To completely blame our educational system for this disenchantment is unfair (not that a lot of work isn't needed there) and fails to acknowledge our failure as a society to reward achievement in all worthwhile endeavors. How well attended is the high school science quiz contest (by non-parents) compared to the football game? We all bear responsibility for the ascendancy of entertainment and athletic achievement over scientific and/or technical prowess. What would make me happy would be a society where we understand both the importance of growing our internal brain trust, if you will, and the continuing need for talented, hard working immigrants to continue bringing new ideas to contribute to the overall quality of life here. I really don't see why it has to be one or the other as so many here seem to think.
The voice of reason. :) I agree with everything you say except this one:
cjbauman wrote:
We all bear responsibility for the ascendancy of entertainment and athletic achievement over scientific and/or technical prowess.
As your argument relates to children I have to say that no one except the child's parent's is to blame for how that child turns out. Back in the day it used to be a punchline of a joke to say "I blame society" now it's accepted as doctrine. Weird.
"I don't want more choice. I just want better things!" - Edina Monsoon
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Where does this all lead in the end? A giant wall around the U.S., no communications with the outside world? Some kind of crazy dystopian society that should only exist in fiction? How can so many people who have by all accounts the most abundant, safest society in the history of the human race succumb so easily to fear and paranoia?
"I don't want more choice. I just want better things!" - Edina Monsoon
John Cardinal wrote:
Where does this all lead in the end? A giant wall around the U.S., no communications with the outside world? Some kind of crazy dystopian society that should only exist in fiction?
But if we can figure out a wall that will keep H1Bs, Kudzu, African Bees and Wetbacks out of the USA, I am all for it.
John Cardinal wrote:
How can so many people who have by all accounts the most abundant, safest society in the history of the human race succumb so easily to fear and paranoia?
Actually that was your parents' generation. The folks in their 20's-30's in America now are the first generation not to have a more abundant, safer society than their parents. One thing I learned in the Army - when guys are trying to kill you, paranoia is a survival mechanism. I submit that stealing livelihoods isn't that different than shooting a bullet.
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
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ednrgc wrote:
They argue back a forth, until I ask for hard facts about how it actually helps the U.S. economy.
They rent apartments, buy cars, and a few years later buy houses. So thedy are pumping money into the economy. Don't you think that helps the economy?
Vivic wrote:
They rent apartments, buy cars, and a few years later buy houses. So thedy are pumping money into the economy. Don't you think that helps the economy?
So they do the same things that an American would do? (Except you forgot to mention remittances which send money out of the U.S.) Sorry but that means the economy isn't helped at all.
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
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Oakman wrote:
Are you aware that most H1B visas last year were filled by outsourcing firms, many of which will not hire U.S. Citizens?
Are you aware that Infosys, wanting to move up the value chain, opened a consulting practice and hired a senior American executive with a salary of $1 million and hired him a mainly American staff with excessive salaries? Having worked with a lot of American executives, I can bet that those millions of dollars were a sheer waste!
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Hi, Sorry about the job loss troubles - It must have been rough.
Draugnar wrote:
H1B Visas are supposed to be about that, but they aren't
Some are - A friend of mine is working in Atlanta on a H1 (his has some "special" peoplesoft skill) and he is on way more that $15 /hour. The Company he works for apprently could find anyone willing to move to atlanta with this skill set.
Draugnar wrote:
US companies hire them because they cost half of what a skilled citizen IT developer costs
There it seems is the bone of contention. Assuming H1B was intended the way I have been saying and everyone acknologes the cost issue as a problem , then is that not an argument for mandatory salary parity?? If the company has to pay more less the same to US and NON US then the cost issue disappears.
Draugnar wrote:
I don't know about the UK,
Its very similar to the US - no government control over job rates , perhaps US and UK should take a leaf out of germanies book. I dont know.
Draugnar wrote:
They aren't allowed to bring spouses unless the spouse gets a Visa of some sort as well
Quoting from "http://www.h1base.com/page.asp?id=40" "The worker's family may also be permitted to live in the US during the period that the H1B visa is in effect, but can not be a paid employee while on an H4 visa. During the term of the H1B visa the employee can also apply for permanent residency. This is called "Dual Intent", and is a privilege some other U.S. visas do not enjoy. " I get the impression (please correct me If I'm wrong and I dont mean to be insulting) from the rest of the text that your impression of H1B people is as being , for want of a better phrase, "3rd world" people. They dont quite know live in a "civilised" way. Is that correct? I dont know if thats true . Some cultures believe in sharing and contributing to life in a different way to those in the UK and US perhaps do. Its just different (sorry didnt mean to lecture a US person on multicultural socities :) ). Also if they are on lower pay , doesnt it make more financial sense to share? Again I can quote my friend cicumstances as I imagine he fits more correctly with "the way we americans prefer to live". He has his own apartment, is dating a US woman and is trying to immerse himself fully in US culture. I guess
MartyK2007 wrote:
Quoting from "http://www.h1base.com/page.asp?id=40" "The worker's family may also be permitted to live in the US during the period that the H1B visa is in effect, but can not be a paid employee while on an H4 visa. During the term of the H1B visa the employee can also apply for permanent residency. This is called "Dual Intent", and is a privilege some other U.S. visas do not enjoy. "
I stand corrected as to what they are allowed to do. However, note that the spouse cannot work while over here on an H4 Visa, meaning that it isn't financially viable for the spouse to come over in cases (the majority I might point out) where the worker is being paid below the going rate. your friend is the exception, not the rule.
MartyK2007 wrote:
I get the impression (please correct me If I'm wrong and I dont mean to be insulting) from the rest of the text that your impression of H1B people is as being , for want of a better phrase, "3rd world" people. They dont quite know live in a "civilised" way. Is that correct?
No, I don't view the H1B Visa recipients as being "third world" at all. I understand that in a country with a huge population compared to its size, the community/citizens get used to sharing and tight quarters. My point is they don't contribute to the economy the way three citizen programmers would.
MartyK2007 wrote:
I dont know if thats true . Some cultures believe in sharing and contributing to life in a different way to those in the UK and US perhaps do. Its just different (sorry didnt mean to lecture a US person on multicultural socities ). Also if they are on lower pay , doesnt it make more financial sense to share?
Notice that last part about lower pay. Again, as a general rule, they are on lower pay. the concept of an H1-B isn't bad, if we have a true shortage of skilled IT people. The practical realities are that the system is broken. I live in the real world with the broken system. Until someone in power fixes it, I will fight tooth and nail to keep increases to the current system (as was recently in the Immigration Reform bill that Congress shot down) as those increases just mean more abuses and less work for out of work skilled IT people. About a year ago, I was asked in an interview "So why should we pay you X dollars a year when we can get an Indian in for half of that?" I told them ou
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Oakman wrote:
They can? Why? Do you believe that there aren't good U.S. programmers
I beleive that in a particular US companies catchment/commuting area there may occasionally be no US programmers trained or experianced enough to fulfil a roll. I would imagine the US programmer Quality is the same as most everywhere else the good , the band and the untrained/inexperianced
Oakman wrote:
Well since you seem to understand metaphors, perhaps you should study up on similes.
Sure a simile while different in many ways is similar in one. I think this particular simile is in poor taste and dont agree with your logic that this constututes a simile based on what we had previously spoken about. Thanks Martin
life is a bowl of cherries go on take a byte
MartyK2007 wrote:
I beleive that in a particular US companies catchment/commuting area there may occasionally be no US programmers trained or experianced enough to fulfil a roll.
And so it's better to import someone who speaks English badly from across and ocean, than to import someone from the next-but-one commuting area. I understand now.
MartyK2007 wrote:
I think this particular simile is in poor taste and dont agree with your logic that this constututes a simile based on what we had previously spoken about.
I am oh-so-sorry I offended you. And you don't get to agree or disagree about whether or not something is a simile, perhaps you meant to say that in addition to being inappropriate (according to you), it was also inaccurate (according to you). Perhaps then, we can agree that you can't handle the truth and let it go at that?
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.