A couple of pro-H1B articles by Americans
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Hey, I am a uk developer and come from a country which still believes in the value of a migrant workforce.(well some of us anyway - :) ) Lets be honest in every country there are good developers and crap developers. Sometimes (and only sometimes) the crap ones are too lasy too get better. Whats wrong with another country attracting the best developers from other places and using them to increase the productivity of your business - this generates more money ,which means a stronger / better economy , The public pay less taxes as more people are employed (in theory at least, its a rare government thats says - oh we took more money than we need have some back, they are more likely to reduce next years tax bill - ok I'm an optimist ) and therefore its better for "joe public". Economic migrants are one of the reasons the UK for all its small size (most US states are bigger) is one of the top economies of the world. Its not just a case of get em from abroad and pay em peanuts either - although there is a tendency for that in certain areas of the economy - in general a developer in the UK gets a UK salary no matter where they are from. (I am not talking about outsourcing here ) The big problem is that you have to ensure that the quota levels are high but not so high that your good local IT developers are unemployed - just the crap ones who will have to get better or change careers. Whoever decides that level will certainly be way more capable than I am. Actually I think the lack of quotas in the UK is a bad thing as it can mean econmic migrants comming over to the UK , not being able to find what they want to do and what they are good at (say IT) and having to change jobs just to survive. Either that or having to leave the UK. I think a quota system (as used by Australia or the US) would reduce a lot of this "churn" which would be good. So people, think about it, econmic migrants can be good for your country. Martin
life is a bowl of cherries go on take a byte
Yup, exactly right. The bitching heard in response to this kind of thinking comes primarily from the underemployed who, as is typical for most people, prefer to point the blame at others rather than look closely at themselves. Good programmers, people with high technical ability, creative thinking, good social skills will always find employment at the highest level of remuneration without any effort whatsoever. The rest will struggle and rather than becoming better find it easier to blame "others" for their own shortcomings.
"I don't want more choice. I just want better things!" - Edina Monsoon
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Doctors are more likely to come on the J-1 visa which requires them to return to their home countries for 2 years before they are eligible to apply for a green card in the US. Either that, or they have to work for 5 years in an area underserved by medical professionals...such as Indian reservations or rural parts of Arkansas, Kentucky, Tennessee, etc. My experience with Indian H1-B employees in 2000 was that while being employed by my company (I worked for an Indian company doing on-site work in the US), they had multiple H1-B visas from several different (usually, Indian outsourcing) companies and could jump sjip at the first opportunity. So, we not only paid above-market wages, we paid bonuses for working more than 40 hours a week. Tell me that American citizens working as programmers at Microsoft, Google or Oracle got paid for working overtime. PS. After the 2001 dotcom meltdown, it was a different story. You could get an Indian programmer for $50/hour in New Jersey and $35/hour in Kansas City.
Vivic wrote:
My experience with Indian H1-B employees in 2000 was that while being employed by my company (I worked for an Indian company doing on-site work in the US), they had multiple H1-B visas from several different (usually, Indian outsourcing) companies and could jump sjip at the first opportunity.
Another example of corruption imported from India
Vivic wrote:
So, we not only paid above-market wages, we paid bonuses for working more than 40 hours a week. Tell me that American citizens working as programmers at Microsoft, Google or Oracle got paid for working overtime.
Never worked for those companies but in 1999 I was getting time and a half over 40 from the state of Connecticut as an indie contractor, and last year I got time and a half over 40 in South Carolina. :D
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
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MartyK2007 wrote:
Ah but I didnt give you money - I gave you a programmer
Sorry, I didn't mean to confuse you by using symbolic logic.
MartyK2007 wrote:
there jobs that could not be filled by US Citizens because they were only Crap or incapable of doing that job
Certainly there are U.S. programmers who can't fill any particular job - but that does not mean that no U.S. Programmers who can't fill that particular job - hate to use logic again but the part does NOT represent the whole. As far as the company is concerned, it's (usually) not that there aren't any U.S. programmers capable of doing the work, it's that there aren't any U.S. programmers capable of doing the work willing to work for slave labor prices.
MartyK2007 wrote:
they pay tax on the income they make. Therefore more mony for government and economy at large.
Since the citizen-programmer would make more money he'd pay more taxes; your argument is bass-ackwards. And since he wouldn't send remittances overseas, more of that money would be spent in the U.S. It seems to me that your thesis is that there aren't enough good U.S. programmers. I have not seen any reason to believe that - perhaps you'd like to provide citations?
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
Oakman wrote:
As far as the company is concerned, it's (usually) not that there aren't any U.S. programmers capable of doing the work, it's that there aren't any U.S. programmers capable of doing the work willing to work for slave labor prices.
Ok, I must call bullshit on this line of thought you are pursuing. Clearly when a company like Microsoft can't get enough programmers to work there from within the U.S., a company that easily attracts all the brightest and best from all over the U.S., one of many such U.S. companies, you can't support this line of thought. Marty has it exactly right, the argument that it's taking away jobs from U.S. programmers is clearly incorrect, what is correct is there aren't enough really good, hard working, technically excellent, socially well adjusted, in short employable programmers available. They are all taken already and *because* of the tremendous sucess of the US software industry, there aren't enough people to fill those jobs. You don't need to look far to see evidence that there are not enough good U.S. programmers it's in the news all around you every day. Every thing about the h1b visa program points to it. Do you seriously think Microsoft would go through the time and expense to build a whole campus in Vancouver BC Canada because they have a plethora of good programmers at hand in the U.S.? We're talking about a company that cares seriously about public opinion, has the money to pay well etc etc and they still can't get enough programmers domestically.
"I don't want more choice. I just want better things!" - Edina Monsoon
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Oakman wrote:
Arrogant and Prima Donna are pejoratives used by second-raters
Yes, that is what prima donas always say when confronted with their arrogance.
Oakman wrote:
I was referring to your claim that you didn't have to be subservient to be a team player in your countries, as I think you knew.
You weren't clear but I am suprised you have to be subservient to be part of a team in your country. How does it function with such narrow mindedness? Good teams are well structured, not master and slave.
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Shog9 wrote:
And with that, Paul closed his browser, sipped his herbal tea, fixed the flower in his hair, and smiled brightly at the multitude of cute, furry animals flocking around the grassy hillside where he sat coding Ruby on his Mac...
Paul Watson wrote:
Yes, that is what prima donas always say when confronted with their arrogance.
Really, always say? You must have a lot of experience at telling people they are arrogant to be able to speak so definitely. And they always call you second rate? I wonder why.
Paul Watson wrote:
You weren't clear but I am suprised you have to be subservient to be part of a team in your country
I guess you have a lot of trouble reading English - is Gaelic or Africaans your native language? Please refer back and read slowly. Perhaps it will sink in that I have, consistently, been referring to your countries and accepting your word for how things work over there. You seem to have been so eager to dump on the USA that you never understood that.
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
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Phil Martin... wrote:
Do you truly fear the unknown that much?
Nope. Do you fear the truth that much?
Phil Martin... wrote:
You don't have to be an employed doctor to want to blow up an airport. You can be an unemployed bum and still want to do that. And worse yet, you could be born in the same country of the air port you want to blow up!
You are right. But these doctors were employed in the UK. The bums who killed friends of mine on 9/11 weren't born in this country. Some of them, including their leader, were here on (expired) work visas. Those are known facts not vaporous maybes and suppositions.
Phil Martin... wrote:
Why be a doctor and help people to raise funds to kill people. A strange one!
Barbarians with skills are still barbarians.
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
Where does this all lead in the end? A giant wall around the U.S., no communications with the outside world? Some kind of crazy dystopian society that should only exist in fiction? How can so many people who have by all accounts the most abundant, safest society in the history of the human race succumb so easily to fear and paranoia?
"I don't want more choice. I just want better things!" - Edina Monsoon
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Ahh I see, switching around what I said, clever! The specific scenario we are talking about is when the overseas applicant is better suited to the position than the local applicants. That is the situation both the original blog posters described. Now the case where a lesser suited applicant is hired that will do worse job for less money, that is an entirely different kettle of fish! - Phil
Phil Martin... wrote:
Ahh I see, switching around what I said, clever!
Actually I just noted that the basis for your argument is that there are all these second-rate Americans being beat out by first-rate Indians.
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
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This is one of those issues that seems to generate incredibly emotional responses and I have to admit that, looking at the bigger picture, I'm mainly just saddened by what we've come to. First off, I believe that America was built by talented, hard-working immigrants that were willing to come to this country and become Americans. We would never be as strong as we are without them and I believe we should continue to encourage participation from like-minded individuals. It saddens me that a large number of Americans seem to feel that we can afford to turn these people away. Criminals and terrorists should certainly be discouraged but not hard-working folk who are simply trying to find a better way of life. Having said that, I'm also saddened by the culture we've built where so many of our children, with their postmodern perspective on life, seem to be rejecting science and technology as viable career choices in favor of quicker (they think) paths to fame and fortune. The perception of so many of them (not all) seems to be that hard work and the pursuit of excellence in one's craft are a sucker's bet when they see the wealth and fame that we heap on performers, professional atheletes, and even reality TV "stars". To completely blame our educational system for this disenchantment is unfair (not that a lot of work isn't needed there) and fails to acknowledge our failure as a society to reward achievement in all worthwhile endeavors. How well attended is the high school science quiz contest (by non-parents) compared to the football game? We all bear responsibility for the ascendancy of entertainment and athletic achievement over scientific and/or technical prowess. What would make me happy would be a society where we understand both the importance of growing our internal brain trust, if you will, and the continuing need for talented, hard working immigrants to continue bringing new ideas to contribute to the overall quality of life here. I really don't see why it has to be one or the other as so many here seem to think.
The voice of reason. :) I agree with everything you say except this one:
cjbauman wrote:
We all bear responsibility for the ascendancy of entertainment and athletic achievement over scientific and/or technical prowess.
As your argument relates to children I have to say that no one except the child's parent's is to blame for how that child turns out. Back in the day it used to be a punchline of a joke to say "I blame society" now it's accepted as doctrine. Weird.
"I don't want more choice. I just want better things!" - Edina Monsoon
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Where does this all lead in the end? A giant wall around the U.S., no communications with the outside world? Some kind of crazy dystopian society that should only exist in fiction? How can so many people who have by all accounts the most abundant, safest society in the history of the human race succumb so easily to fear and paranoia?
"I don't want more choice. I just want better things!" - Edina Monsoon
John Cardinal wrote:
Where does this all lead in the end? A giant wall around the U.S., no communications with the outside world? Some kind of crazy dystopian society that should only exist in fiction?
But if we can figure out a wall that will keep H1Bs, Kudzu, African Bees and Wetbacks out of the USA, I am all for it.
John Cardinal wrote:
How can so many people who have by all accounts the most abundant, safest society in the history of the human race succumb so easily to fear and paranoia?
Actually that was your parents' generation. The folks in their 20's-30's in America now are the first generation not to have a more abundant, safer society than their parents. One thing I learned in the Army - when guys are trying to kill you, paranoia is a survival mechanism. I submit that stealing livelihoods isn't that different than shooting a bullet.
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
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ednrgc wrote:
They argue back a forth, until I ask for hard facts about how it actually helps the U.S. economy.
They rent apartments, buy cars, and a few years later buy houses. So thedy are pumping money into the economy. Don't you think that helps the economy?
Vivic wrote:
They rent apartments, buy cars, and a few years later buy houses. So thedy are pumping money into the economy. Don't you think that helps the economy?
So they do the same things that an American would do? (Except you forgot to mention remittances which send money out of the U.S.) Sorry but that means the economy isn't helped at all.
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
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Oakman wrote:
Are you aware that most H1B visas last year were filled by outsourcing firms, many of which will not hire U.S. Citizens?
Are you aware that Infosys, wanting to move up the value chain, opened a consulting practice and hired a senior American executive with a salary of $1 million and hired him a mainly American staff with excessive salaries? Having worked with a lot of American executives, I can bet that those millions of dollars were a sheer waste!
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Hi, Sorry about the job loss troubles - It must have been rough.
Draugnar wrote:
H1B Visas are supposed to be about that, but they aren't
Some are - A friend of mine is working in Atlanta on a H1 (his has some "special" peoplesoft skill) and he is on way more that $15 /hour. The Company he works for apprently could find anyone willing to move to atlanta with this skill set.
Draugnar wrote:
US companies hire them because they cost half of what a skilled citizen IT developer costs
There it seems is the bone of contention. Assuming H1B was intended the way I have been saying and everyone acknologes the cost issue as a problem , then is that not an argument for mandatory salary parity?? If the company has to pay more less the same to US and NON US then the cost issue disappears.
Draugnar wrote:
I don't know about the UK,
Its very similar to the US - no government control over job rates , perhaps US and UK should take a leaf out of germanies book. I dont know.
Draugnar wrote:
They aren't allowed to bring spouses unless the spouse gets a Visa of some sort as well
Quoting from "http://www.h1base.com/page.asp?id=40" "The worker's family may also be permitted to live in the US during the period that the H1B visa is in effect, but can not be a paid employee while on an H4 visa. During the term of the H1B visa the employee can also apply for permanent residency. This is called "Dual Intent", and is a privilege some other U.S. visas do not enjoy. " I get the impression (please correct me If I'm wrong and I dont mean to be insulting) from the rest of the text that your impression of H1B people is as being , for want of a better phrase, "3rd world" people. They dont quite know live in a "civilised" way. Is that correct? I dont know if thats true . Some cultures believe in sharing and contributing to life in a different way to those in the UK and US perhaps do. Its just different (sorry didnt mean to lecture a US person on multicultural socities :) ). Also if they are on lower pay , doesnt it make more financial sense to share? Again I can quote my friend cicumstances as I imagine he fits more correctly with "the way we americans prefer to live". He has his own apartment, is dating a US woman and is trying to immerse himself fully in US culture. I guess
MartyK2007 wrote:
Quoting from "http://www.h1base.com/page.asp?id=40" "The worker's family may also be permitted to live in the US during the period that the H1B visa is in effect, but can not be a paid employee while on an H4 visa. During the term of the H1B visa the employee can also apply for permanent residency. This is called "Dual Intent", and is a privilege some other U.S. visas do not enjoy. "
I stand corrected as to what they are allowed to do. However, note that the spouse cannot work while over here on an H4 Visa, meaning that it isn't financially viable for the spouse to come over in cases (the majority I might point out) where the worker is being paid below the going rate. your friend is the exception, not the rule.
MartyK2007 wrote:
I get the impression (please correct me If I'm wrong and I dont mean to be insulting) from the rest of the text that your impression of H1B people is as being , for want of a better phrase, "3rd world" people. They dont quite know live in a "civilised" way. Is that correct?
No, I don't view the H1B Visa recipients as being "third world" at all. I understand that in a country with a huge population compared to its size, the community/citizens get used to sharing and tight quarters. My point is they don't contribute to the economy the way three citizen programmers would.
MartyK2007 wrote:
I dont know if thats true . Some cultures believe in sharing and contributing to life in a different way to those in the UK and US perhaps do. Its just different (sorry didnt mean to lecture a US person on multicultural socities ). Also if they are on lower pay , doesnt it make more financial sense to share?
Notice that last part about lower pay. Again, as a general rule, they are on lower pay. the concept of an H1-B isn't bad, if we have a true shortage of skilled IT people. The practical realities are that the system is broken. I live in the real world with the broken system. Until someone in power fixes it, I will fight tooth and nail to keep increases to the current system (as was recently in the Immigration Reform bill that Congress shot down) as those increases just mean more abuses and less work for out of work skilled IT people. About a year ago, I was asked in an interview "So why should we pay you X dollars a year when we can get an Indian in for half of that?" I told them ou
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Oakman wrote:
They can? Why? Do you believe that there aren't good U.S. programmers
I beleive that in a particular US companies catchment/commuting area there may occasionally be no US programmers trained or experianced enough to fulfil a roll. I would imagine the US programmer Quality is the same as most everywhere else the good , the band and the untrained/inexperianced
Oakman wrote:
Well since you seem to understand metaphors, perhaps you should study up on similes.
Sure a simile while different in many ways is similar in one. I think this particular simile is in poor taste and dont agree with your logic that this constututes a simile based on what we had previously spoken about. Thanks Martin
life is a bowl of cherries go on take a byte
MartyK2007 wrote:
I beleive that in a particular US companies catchment/commuting area there may occasionally be no US programmers trained or experianced enough to fulfil a roll.
And so it's better to import someone who speaks English badly from across and ocean, than to import someone from the next-but-one commuting area. I understand now.
MartyK2007 wrote:
I think this particular simile is in poor taste and dont agree with your logic that this constututes a simile based on what we had previously spoken about.
I am oh-so-sorry I offended you. And you don't get to agree or disagree about whether or not something is a simile, perhaps you meant to say that in addition to being inappropriate (according to you), it was also inaccurate (according to you). Perhaps then, we can agree that you can't handle the truth and let it go at that?
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
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Yup, exactly right. The bitching heard in response to this kind of thinking comes primarily from the underemployed who, as is typical for most people, prefer to point the blame at others rather than look closely at themselves. Good programmers, people with high technical ability, creative thinking, good social skills will always find employment at the highest level of remuneration without any effort whatsoever. The rest will struggle and rather than becoming better find it easier to blame "others" for their own shortcomings.
"I don't want more choice. I just want better things!" - Edina Monsoon
John Cardinal wrote:
Yup, exactly right. The bitching heard in response to this kind of thinking comes primarily from the underemployed who, as is typical for most people, prefer to point the blame at others rather than look closely at themselves
You really have no idea what is going on, do you? Well, you just keep telling yourself that, right up until you're asked to train your replacement.
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
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This is one of those issues that seems to generate incredibly emotional responses and I have to admit that, looking at the bigger picture, I'm mainly just saddened by what we've come to. First off, I believe that America was built by talented, hard-working immigrants that were willing to come to this country and become Americans. We would never be as strong as we are without them and I believe we should continue to encourage participation from like-minded individuals. It saddens me that a large number of Americans seem to feel that we can afford to turn these people away. Criminals and terrorists should certainly be discouraged but not hard-working folk who are simply trying to find a better way of life. Having said that, I'm also saddened by the culture we've built where so many of our children, with their postmodern perspective on life, seem to be rejecting science and technology as viable career choices in favor of quicker (they think) paths to fame and fortune. The perception of so many of them (not all) seems to be that hard work and the pursuit of excellence in one's craft are a sucker's bet when they see the wealth and fame that we heap on performers, professional atheletes, and even reality TV "stars". To completely blame our educational system for this disenchantment is unfair (not that a lot of work isn't needed there) and fails to acknowledge our failure as a society to reward achievement in all worthwhile endeavors. How well attended is the high school science quiz contest (by non-parents) compared to the football game? We all bear responsibility for the ascendancy of entertainment and athletic achievement over scientific and/or technical prowess. What would make me happy would be a society where we understand both the importance of growing our internal brain trust, if you will, and the continuing need for talented, hard working immigrants to continue bringing new ideas to contribute to the overall quality of life here. I really don't see why it has to be one or the other as so many here seem to think.
cjbauman wrote:
What would make me happy would be a society where we understand both the importance of growing our internal brain trust, if you will, and the continuing need for talented, hard working immigrants to continue bringing new ideas to contribute to the overall quality of life here. I really don't see why it has to be one or the other as so many here seem to think.
Gee, that would make me happy, too. Lets hope that real soon, we find the large areas of unexplored wilderness that will allow us to accept lots of immigrants - however,what you describe is a fantasy -and not particularly pertinent. H1Bs are not immigrants any more than wetbacks are. H1Bs are temporary employees and many/most have every intention of making their bundle and then running home.
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
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Oakman wrote:
As far as the company is concerned, it's (usually) not that there aren't any U.S. programmers capable of doing the work, it's that there aren't any U.S. programmers capable of doing the work willing to work for slave labor prices.
Ok, I must call bullshit on this line of thought you are pursuing. Clearly when a company like Microsoft can't get enough programmers to work there from within the U.S., a company that easily attracts all the brightest and best from all over the U.S., one of many such U.S. companies, you can't support this line of thought. Marty has it exactly right, the argument that it's taking away jobs from U.S. programmers is clearly incorrect, what is correct is there aren't enough really good, hard working, technically excellent, socially well adjusted, in short employable programmers available. They are all taken already and *because* of the tremendous sucess of the US software industry, there aren't enough people to fill those jobs. You don't need to look far to see evidence that there are not enough good U.S. programmers it's in the news all around you every day. Every thing about the h1b visa program points to it. Do you seriously think Microsoft would go through the time and expense to build a whole campus in Vancouver BC Canada because they have a plethora of good programmers at hand in the U.S.? We're talking about a company that cares seriously about public opinion, has the money to pay well etc etc and they still can't get enough programmers domestically.
"I don't want more choice. I just want better things!" - Edina Monsoon
Before you start quoting Microsoft's party line and call bullsh!t on me, I suggest you learn a little history. M$FT, since the 1990's, has agressively pursued hiring on the cheap. At first that meant contractors so they wouldn't have to pay benefits and now it means H1Bs because they are the cheapest type of programmer around. M$FT is building their campus in Canada to punish the US for not granting their desire for unlimited H1Bs. They would have had to build the campus and increased their staff-size regardless. But this way they get to spit in Lou Dobbs's eye.
John Cardinal wrote:
Every thing about the h1b visa program points to it.
Do you have any clue as to how badly the H1B program is being abused? Its so rampant that it's being used as one of the reasons MSFT and Oracle, etc want the brakes taken off the number that can be brought into this country.
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
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MartyK2007 wrote:
Ah but I didnt give you money - I gave you a programmer
Sorry, I didn't mean to confuse you by using symbolic logic.
MartyK2007 wrote:
there jobs that could not be filled by US Citizens because they were only Crap or incapable of doing that job
Certainly there are U.S. programmers who can't fill any particular job - but that does not mean that no U.S. Programmers who can't fill that particular job - hate to use logic again but the part does NOT represent the whole. As far as the company is concerned, it's (usually) not that there aren't any U.S. programmers capable of doing the work, it's that there aren't any U.S. programmers capable of doing the work willing to work for slave labor prices.
MartyK2007 wrote:
they pay tax on the income they make. Therefore more mony for government and economy at large.
Since the citizen-programmer would make more money he'd pay more taxes; your argument is bass-ackwards. And since he wouldn't send remittances overseas, more of that money would be spent in the U.S. It seems to me that your thesis is that there aren't enough good U.S. programmers. I have not seen any reason to believe that - perhaps you'd like to provide citations?
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
If you're going to make the argument about the part not representing the whole, then you can hardly suggest that any given company hiring H1-B holders won't pay qualified locals market rates. Some companies may be taking that approach, some may not. US citizen programmers might pay more tax if they indeed earned more, but since you don't cite any of the studies you mention, that's up for debate as a proposition. Funds sent overseas are only a bad thing on a micro-economic basis - overall, the more dollars floating around the world, the better for the US economy.
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The voice of reason. :) I agree with everything you say except this one:
cjbauman wrote:
We all bear responsibility for the ascendancy of entertainment and athletic achievement over scientific and/or technical prowess.
As your argument relates to children I have to say that no one except the child's parent's is to blame for how that child turns out. Back in the day it used to be a punchline of a joke to say "I blame society" now it's accepted as doctrine. Weird.
"I don't want more choice. I just want better things!" - Edina Monsoon
As a parent with grown children I personally think it's just as big a mistake to solely blame the parents for the child's choices as it is to solely blame society, which I don't but I realize that that may not have been as clearly stated in my earlier post as it should have been. I was trying to say that I think any shortage of good, qualified American developers is a systemic problem and that one aspect of that problem is that we've created a situation where more respect, attention, and rewards appear to come easier and faster to folks in professions that I tend to lump together and call "entertainment". I believe, right or wrong, that this contributes to the confusion young people experience when it comes time to make choices regarding their careers. Do you shoot for the glossy, sexy option or go with the plodding, geeky option? Again, this is a matter of perception but think about what's being sold hard every day to this demographic. I think all too many of them are looking at the former option and that can't be laid entirely at their parents' feet.
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This is one of those issues that seems to generate incredibly emotional responses and I have to admit that, looking at the bigger picture, I'm mainly just saddened by what we've come to. First off, I believe that America was built by talented, hard-working immigrants that were willing to come to this country and become Americans. We would never be as strong as we are without them and I believe we should continue to encourage participation from like-minded individuals. It saddens me that a large number of Americans seem to feel that we can afford to turn these people away. Criminals and terrorists should certainly be discouraged but not hard-working folk who are simply trying to find a better way of life. Having said that, I'm also saddened by the culture we've built where so many of our children, with their postmodern perspective on life, seem to be rejecting science and technology as viable career choices in favor of quicker (they think) paths to fame and fortune. The perception of so many of them (not all) seems to be that hard work and the pursuit of excellence in one's craft are a sucker's bet when they see the wealth and fame that we heap on performers, professional atheletes, and even reality TV "stars". To completely blame our educational system for this disenchantment is unfair (not that a lot of work isn't needed there) and fails to acknowledge our failure as a society to reward achievement in all worthwhile endeavors. How well attended is the high school science quiz contest (by non-parents) compared to the football game? We all bear responsibility for the ascendancy of entertainment and athletic achievement over scientific and/or technical prowess. What would make me happy would be a society where we understand both the importance of growing our internal brain trust, if you will, and the continuing need for talented, hard working immigrants to continue bringing new ideas to contribute to the overall quality of life here. I really don't see why it has to be one or the other as so many here seem to think.
The rot set in more than 4 decades back. America's last great hurrah was the 1969 landing on the Moon and the next few lunar explorations. After that, we have seen a steady decline in American higher education. Glib-talking politicians who are no better than snake-oil salesmen have ruined America beginning with Richard Nixon. Today, American graduate schools in science and engineering are pretty much populated by students from China, India, and Taiwan. Americans are busy becoming MBAs with majors in Finance, Marketing or Human Resources. They don't even care to take up Manufacturing or Operations Management in their MBAs. And they have a BBA or BS in Accounting or Psychology. Do you expect these people to care about the American manufacturing industry or about the American labor force? Narayanamoorthy, the founder of Infosys, remarked that his son could not earn admission to one of the IITs in India but had to go to Cornell. Cornell admittedly does better research in engineering than any of the IITs could because of the vastly increased funding that it gets but the IITs provide a solid undergraduate education which prepares the students for the MITs, Cornells and Stanfords of the US. In fact, the complaint in India is that vast sums are being spent on educating the IIT students who leave for the US en masse and that this is a form of subsidy to the US. People who complain that H1-B employees are taking away American jobs should stop shopping at Wal-Mart. More manufacturing jobs have been lost due to the shift of production to China than programming jobs that have been lost to H1-B employees. But logic is never the strong suite of the programming community which would like to buy made-in-China DVD players at Wal-Mart for $29.95 but does not want their employers to have the same freedom to shop around when it comes to employees. My $0.02
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Vivic wrote:
My experience with Indian H1-B employees in 2000 was that while being employed by my company (I worked for an Indian company doing on-site work in the US), they had multiple H1-B visas from several different (usually, Indian outsourcing) companies and could jump sjip at the first opportunity.
Another example of corruption imported from India
Vivic wrote:
So, we not only paid above-market wages, we paid bonuses for working more than 40 hours a week. Tell me that American citizens working as programmers at Microsoft, Google or Oracle got paid for working overtime.
Never worked for those companies but in 1999 I was getting time and a half over 40 from the state of Connecticut as an indie contractor, and last year I got time and a half over 40 in South Carolina. :D
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
Oakman wrote:
Another example of corruption imported from India
You mean, you never look around for a better job?
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Vivic wrote:
They rent apartments, buy cars, and a few years later buy houses. So thedy are pumping money into the economy. Don't you think that helps the economy?
So they do the same things that an American would do? (Except you forgot to mention remittances which send money out of the U.S.) Sorry but that means the economy isn't helped at all.
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
Most folks who come to the US from India on H1-B visas come from a middle-class background and do not have to support their families back home financially. The cab drivers in New York or Chicago are the ones sending money home to their families and they are not here on H1-B. The vast majority of remittances to India come from blue-collar workers employed in the Middle East. Just like low-skilled Hispanic immigrants working as domestics or agricultural workers in the US repatriate money to Mexico/Central American countries.