A couple of pro-H1B articles by Americans
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Oakman wrote:
They can? Why? Do you believe that there aren't good U.S. programmers
I beleive that in a particular US companies catchment/commuting area there may occasionally be no US programmers trained or experianced enough to fulfil a roll. I would imagine the US programmer Quality is the same as most everywhere else the good , the band and the untrained/inexperianced
Oakman wrote:
Well since you seem to understand metaphors, perhaps you should study up on similes.
Sure a simile while different in many ways is similar in one. I think this particular simile is in poor taste and dont agree with your logic that this constututes a simile based on what we had previously spoken about. Thanks Martin
life is a bowl of cherries go on take a byte
MartyK2007 wrote:
I beleive that in a particular US companies catchment/commuting area there may occasionally be no US programmers trained or experianced enough to fulfil a roll.
And so it's better to import someone who speaks English badly from across and ocean, than to import someone from the next-but-one commuting area. I understand now.
MartyK2007 wrote:
I think this particular simile is in poor taste and dont agree with your logic that this constututes a simile based on what we had previously spoken about.
I am oh-so-sorry I offended you. And you don't get to agree or disagree about whether or not something is a simile, perhaps you meant to say that in addition to being inappropriate (according to you), it was also inaccurate (according to you). Perhaps then, we can agree that you can't handle the truth and let it go at that?
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
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Yup, exactly right. The bitching heard in response to this kind of thinking comes primarily from the underemployed who, as is typical for most people, prefer to point the blame at others rather than look closely at themselves. Good programmers, people with high technical ability, creative thinking, good social skills will always find employment at the highest level of remuneration without any effort whatsoever. The rest will struggle and rather than becoming better find it easier to blame "others" for their own shortcomings.
"I don't want more choice. I just want better things!" - Edina Monsoon
John Cardinal wrote:
Yup, exactly right. The bitching heard in response to this kind of thinking comes primarily from the underemployed who, as is typical for most people, prefer to point the blame at others rather than look closely at themselves
You really have no idea what is going on, do you? Well, you just keep telling yourself that, right up until you're asked to train your replacement.
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
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This is one of those issues that seems to generate incredibly emotional responses and I have to admit that, looking at the bigger picture, I'm mainly just saddened by what we've come to. First off, I believe that America was built by talented, hard-working immigrants that were willing to come to this country and become Americans. We would never be as strong as we are without them and I believe we should continue to encourage participation from like-minded individuals. It saddens me that a large number of Americans seem to feel that we can afford to turn these people away. Criminals and terrorists should certainly be discouraged but not hard-working folk who are simply trying to find a better way of life. Having said that, I'm also saddened by the culture we've built where so many of our children, with their postmodern perspective on life, seem to be rejecting science and technology as viable career choices in favor of quicker (they think) paths to fame and fortune. The perception of so many of them (not all) seems to be that hard work and the pursuit of excellence in one's craft are a sucker's bet when they see the wealth and fame that we heap on performers, professional atheletes, and even reality TV "stars". To completely blame our educational system for this disenchantment is unfair (not that a lot of work isn't needed there) and fails to acknowledge our failure as a society to reward achievement in all worthwhile endeavors. How well attended is the high school science quiz contest (by non-parents) compared to the football game? We all bear responsibility for the ascendancy of entertainment and athletic achievement over scientific and/or technical prowess. What would make me happy would be a society where we understand both the importance of growing our internal brain trust, if you will, and the continuing need for talented, hard working immigrants to continue bringing new ideas to contribute to the overall quality of life here. I really don't see why it has to be one or the other as so many here seem to think.
cjbauman wrote:
What would make me happy would be a society where we understand both the importance of growing our internal brain trust, if you will, and the continuing need for talented, hard working immigrants to continue bringing new ideas to contribute to the overall quality of life here. I really don't see why it has to be one or the other as so many here seem to think.
Gee, that would make me happy, too. Lets hope that real soon, we find the large areas of unexplored wilderness that will allow us to accept lots of immigrants - however,what you describe is a fantasy -and not particularly pertinent. H1Bs are not immigrants any more than wetbacks are. H1Bs are temporary employees and many/most have every intention of making their bundle and then running home.
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
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Oakman wrote:
As far as the company is concerned, it's (usually) not that there aren't any U.S. programmers capable of doing the work, it's that there aren't any U.S. programmers capable of doing the work willing to work for slave labor prices.
Ok, I must call bullshit on this line of thought you are pursuing. Clearly when a company like Microsoft can't get enough programmers to work there from within the U.S., a company that easily attracts all the brightest and best from all over the U.S., one of many such U.S. companies, you can't support this line of thought. Marty has it exactly right, the argument that it's taking away jobs from U.S. programmers is clearly incorrect, what is correct is there aren't enough really good, hard working, technically excellent, socially well adjusted, in short employable programmers available. They are all taken already and *because* of the tremendous sucess of the US software industry, there aren't enough people to fill those jobs. You don't need to look far to see evidence that there are not enough good U.S. programmers it's in the news all around you every day. Every thing about the h1b visa program points to it. Do you seriously think Microsoft would go through the time and expense to build a whole campus in Vancouver BC Canada because they have a plethora of good programmers at hand in the U.S.? We're talking about a company that cares seriously about public opinion, has the money to pay well etc etc and they still can't get enough programmers domestically.
"I don't want more choice. I just want better things!" - Edina Monsoon
Before you start quoting Microsoft's party line and call bullsh!t on me, I suggest you learn a little history. M$FT, since the 1990's, has agressively pursued hiring on the cheap. At first that meant contractors so they wouldn't have to pay benefits and now it means H1Bs because they are the cheapest type of programmer around. M$FT is building their campus in Canada to punish the US for not granting their desire for unlimited H1Bs. They would have had to build the campus and increased their staff-size regardless. But this way they get to spit in Lou Dobbs's eye.
John Cardinal wrote:
Every thing about the h1b visa program points to it.
Do you have any clue as to how badly the H1B program is being abused? Its so rampant that it's being used as one of the reasons MSFT and Oracle, etc want the brakes taken off the number that can be brought into this country.
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
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MartyK2007 wrote:
Ah but I didnt give you money - I gave you a programmer
Sorry, I didn't mean to confuse you by using symbolic logic.
MartyK2007 wrote:
there jobs that could not be filled by US Citizens because they were only Crap or incapable of doing that job
Certainly there are U.S. programmers who can't fill any particular job - but that does not mean that no U.S. Programmers who can't fill that particular job - hate to use logic again but the part does NOT represent the whole. As far as the company is concerned, it's (usually) not that there aren't any U.S. programmers capable of doing the work, it's that there aren't any U.S. programmers capable of doing the work willing to work for slave labor prices.
MartyK2007 wrote:
they pay tax on the income they make. Therefore more mony for government and economy at large.
Since the citizen-programmer would make more money he'd pay more taxes; your argument is bass-ackwards. And since he wouldn't send remittances overseas, more of that money would be spent in the U.S. It seems to me that your thesis is that there aren't enough good U.S. programmers. I have not seen any reason to believe that - perhaps you'd like to provide citations?
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
If you're going to make the argument about the part not representing the whole, then you can hardly suggest that any given company hiring H1-B holders won't pay qualified locals market rates. Some companies may be taking that approach, some may not. US citizen programmers might pay more tax if they indeed earned more, but since you don't cite any of the studies you mention, that's up for debate as a proposition. Funds sent overseas are only a bad thing on a micro-economic basis - overall, the more dollars floating around the world, the better for the US economy.
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The voice of reason. :) I agree with everything you say except this one:
cjbauman wrote:
We all bear responsibility for the ascendancy of entertainment and athletic achievement over scientific and/or technical prowess.
As your argument relates to children I have to say that no one except the child's parent's is to blame for how that child turns out. Back in the day it used to be a punchline of a joke to say "I blame society" now it's accepted as doctrine. Weird.
"I don't want more choice. I just want better things!" - Edina Monsoon
As a parent with grown children I personally think it's just as big a mistake to solely blame the parents for the child's choices as it is to solely blame society, which I don't but I realize that that may not have been as clearly stated in my earlier post as it should have been. I was trying to say that I think any shortage of good, qualified American developers is a systemic problem and that one aspect of that problem is that we've created a situation where more respect, attention, and rewards appear to come easier and faster to folks in professions that I tend to lump together and call "entertainment". I believe, right or wrong, that this contributes to the confusion young people experience when it comes time to make choices regarding their careers. Do you shoot for the glossy, sexy option or go with the plodding, geeky option? Again, this is a matter of perception but think about what's being sold hard every day to this demographic. I think all too many of them are looking at the former option and that can't be laid entirely at their parents' feet.
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This is one of those issues that seems to generate incredibly emotional responses and I have to admit that, looking at the bigger picture, I'm mainly just saddened by what we've come to. First off, I believe that America was built by talented, hard-working immigrants that were willing to come to this country and become Americans. We would never be as strong as we are without them and I believe we should continue to encourage participation from like-minded individuals. It saddens me that a large number of Americans seem to feel that we can afford to turn these people away. Criminals and terrorists should certainly be discouraged but not hard-working folk who are simply trying to find a better way of life. Having said that, I'm also saddened by the culture we've built where so many of our children, with their postmodern perspective on life, seem to be rejecting science and technology as viable career choices in favor of quicker (they think) paths to fame and fortune. The perception of so many of them (not all) seems to be that hard work and the pursuit of excellence in one's craft are a sucker's bet when they see the wealth and fame that we heap on performers, professional atheletes, and even reality TV "stars". To completely blame our educational system for this disenchantment is unfair (not that a lot of work isn't needed there) and fails to acknowledge our failure as a society to reward achievement in all worthwhile endeavors. How well attended is the high school science quiz contest (by non-parents) compared to the football game? We all bear responsibility for the ascendancy of entertainment and athletic achievement over scientific and/or technical prowess. What would make me happy would be a society where we understand both the importance of growing our internal brain trust, if you will, and the continuing need for talented, hard working immigrants to continue bringing new ideas to contribute to the overall quality of life here. I really don't see why it has to be one or the other as so many here seem to think.
The rot set in more than 4 decades back. America's last great hurrah was the 1969 landing on the Moon and the next few lunar explorations. After that, we have seen a steady decline in American higher education. Glib-talking politicians who are no better than snake-oil salesmen have ruined America beginning with Richard Nixon. Today, American graduate schools in science and engineering are pretty much populated by students from China, India, and Taiwan. Americans are busy becoming MBAs with majors in Finance, Marketing or Human Resources. They don't even care to take up Manufacturing or Operations Management in their MBAs. And they have a BBA or BS in Accounting or Psychology. Do you expect these people to care about the American manufacturing industry or about the American labor force? Narayanamoorthy, the founder of Infosys, remarked that his son could not earn admission to one of the IITs in India but had to go to Cornell. Cornell admittedly does better research in engineering than any of the IITs could because of the vastly increased funding that it gets but the IITs provide a solid undergraduate education which prepares the students for the MITs, Cornells and Stanfords of the US. In fact, the complaint in India is that vast sums are being spent on educating the IIT students who leave for the US en masse and that this is a form of subsidy to the US. People who complain that H1-B employees are taking away American jobs should stop shopping at Wal-Mart. More manufacturing jobs have been lost due to the shift of production to China than programming jobs that have been lost to H1-B employees. But logic is never the strong suite of the programming community which would like to buy made-in-China DVD players at Wal-Mart for $29.95 but does not want their employers to have the same freedom to shop around when it comes to employees. My $0.02
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Vivic wrote:
My experience with Indian H1-B employees in 2000 was that while being employed by my company (I worked for an Indian company doing on-site work in the US), they had multiple H1-B visas from several different (usually, Indian outsourcing) companies and could jump sjip at the first opportunity.
Another example of corruption imported from India
Vivic wrote:
So, we not only paid above-market wages, we paid bonuses for working more than 40 hours a week. Tell me that American citizens working as programmers at Microsoft, Google or Oracle got paid for working overtime.
Never worked for those companies but in 1999 I was getting time and a half over 40 from the state of Connecticut as an indie contractor, and last year I got time and a half over 40 in South Carolina. :D
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
Oakman wrote:
Another example of corruption imported from India
You mean, you never look around for a better job?
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Vivic wrote:
They rent apartments, buy cars, and a few years later buy houses. So thedy are pumping money into the economy. Don't you think that helps the economy?
So they do the same things that an American would do? (Except you forgot to mention remittances which send money out of the U.S.) Sorry but that means the economy isn't helped at all.
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
Most folks who come to the US from India on H1-B visas come from a middle-class background and do not have to support their families back home financially. The cab drivers in New York or Chicago are the ones sending money home to their families and they are not here on H1-B. The vast majority of remittances to India come from blue-collar workers employed in the Middle East. Just like low-skilled Hispanic immigrants working as domestics or agricultural workers in the US repatriate money to Mexico/Central American countries.
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The rot set in more than 4 decades back. America's last great hurrah was the 1969 landing on the Moon and the next few lunar explorations. After that, we have seen a steady decline in American higher education. Glib-talking politicians who are no better than snake-oil salesmen have ruined America beginning with Richard Nixon. Today, American graduate schools in science and engineering are pretty much populated by students from China, India, and Taiwan. Americans are busy becoming MBAs with majors in Finance, Marketing or Human Resources. They don't even care to take up Manufacturing or Operations Management in their MBAs. And they have a BBA or BS in Accounting or Psychology. Do you expect these people to care about the American manufacturing industry or about the American labor force? Narayanamoorthy, the founder of Infosys, remarked that his son could not earn admission to one of the IITs in India but had to go to Cornell. Cornell admittedly does better research in engineering than any of the IITs could because of the vastly increased funding that it gets but the IITs provide a solid undergraduate education which prepares the students for the MITs, Cornells and Stanfords of the US. In fact, the complaint in India is that vast sums are being spent on educating the IIT students who leave for the US en masse and that this is a form of subsidy to the US. People who complain that H1-B employees are taking away American jobs should stop shopping at Wal-Mart. More manufacturing jobs have been lost due to the shift of production to China than programming jobs that have been lost to H1-B employees. But logic is never the strong suite of the programming community which would like to buy made-in-China DVD players at Wal-Mart for $29.95 but does not want their employers to have the same freedom to shop around when it comes to employees. My $0.02
I loathe walmart, in the past 2 years I've spent less than $100 there, all for items that weren't carried in any other chains and that were emergency purchases I couldn't wait 3-5 days for shipping from an online store.
-- You have to explain to them [VB coders] what you mean by "typed". their first response is likely to be something like, "Of course my code is typed. Do you think i magically project it onto the screen with the power of my mind?" --- John Simmons / outlaw programmer
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I loathe walmart, in the past 2 years I've spent less than $100 there, all for items that weren't carried in any other chains and that were emergency purchases I couldn't wait 3-5 days for shipping from an online store.
-- You have to explain to them [VB coders] what you mean by "typed". their first response is likely to be something like, "Of course my code is typed. Do you think i magically project it onto the screen with the power of my mind?" --- John Simmons / outlaw programmer
I just chose Wal-Mart as one retailer who sources products from China. It doesn't matter where you go, everything is made in China nowadays. Mattel makes toys in China and ships them worldwide. Can you deny your kids their Christmas presents this December?:sigh:
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John Cardinal wrote:
Yup, exactly right. The bitching heard in response to this kind of thinking comes primarily from the underemployed who, as is typical for most people, prefer to point the blame at others rather than look closely at themselves
You really have no idea what is going on, do you? Well, you just keep telling yourself that, right up until you're asked to train your replacement.
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
Lol @ Oakman!! I gotta hand it to you for vehemently sticking to your stance. Somewhere along I read that you were in the army. Kudos! So you're the friendly neighborhood gun totting trigger happy fire Klan punk, who has an "all trespassers will be shot, survivors will be shot again" warning sign in his front yard. NICE!!! -- modified at 15:33 Tuesday 10th July, 2007
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I just chose Wal-Mart as one retailer who sources products from China. It doesn't matter where you go, everything is made in China nowadays. Mattel makes toys in China and ships them worldwide. Can you deny your kids their Christmas presents this December?:sigh:
Kids? What kids? :laugh::rolleyes: On a less flippant note, whenever I can I do buy domestic over import, and anywhere else over PRC.
-- You have to explain to them [VB coders] what you mean by "typed". their first response is likely to be something like, "Of course my code is typed. Do you think i magically project it onto the screen with the power of my mind?" --- John Simmons / outlaw programmer
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Kids? What kids? :laugh::rolleyes: On a less flippant note, whenever I can I do buy domestic over import, and anywhere else over PRC.
-- You have to explain to them [VB coders] what you mean by "typed". their first response is likely to be something like, "Of course my code is typed. Do you think i magically project it onto the screen with the power of my mind?" --- John Simmons / outlaw programmer
dan neely wrote:
Kids? What kids?
You mean to tell me your ex-girkfriends haven't sued you yet for child support? :laugh:
dan neely wrote:
On a less flippant note, whenever I can I do buy domestic over import, and anywhere else over PRC.
Can you buy just a shirt or a pair of shoes made in the USA anymore?:( :(
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Lol @ Oakman!! I gotta hand it to you for vehemently sticking to your stance. Somewhere along I read that you were in the army. Kudos! So you're the friendly neighborhood gun totting trigger happy fire Klan punk, who has an "all trespassers will be shot, survivors will be shot again" warning sign in his front yard. NICE!!! -- modified at 15:33 Tuesday 10th July, 2007
Actually, I haven't killed anyone or even fired a weapon since I got out of the service. But I would be interested in knowing how many times a day you pray to cow patties - or do you just eat them?
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
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Oakman wrote:
Another example of corruption imported from India
You mean, you never look around for a better job?
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cjbauman wrote:
What would make me happy would be a society where we understand both the importance of growing our internal brain trust, if you will, and the continuing need for talented, hard working immigrants to continue bringing new ideas to contribute to the overall quality of life here. I really don't see why it has to be one or the other as so many here seem to think.
Gee, that would make me happy, too. Lets hope that real soon, we find the large areas of unexplored wilderness that will allow us to accept lots of immigrants - however,what you describe is a fantasy -and not particularly pertinent. H1Bs are not immigrants any more than wetbacks are. H1Bs are temporary employees and many/most have every intention of making their bundle and then running home.
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
Yeah, I figured someone would slam me for the utopian tone. It was deliberate but I think it probably completely obfuscated my own position on H1B visas. It was probably a mistake on my part to jump up to a 50,000 foot level when the entire thread is basically a ground-level scrimmage but I was in a philosophical mood. FWIW, I don't really delude myself that what I outlined as an ideal will ever actually happen given the politics involved. While I do support legal immigration of talented workers I don't really feel that I can support raising the limit on H1Bs. I'm well aware that the goal of many, if not most, H1B holders is not permanent immigration and that many of the companies that hire them are doing so disingenuously. Although I take your point regarding the relevance of my post, I did think I was clear that I would prefer that high paying IT jobs in America primarily go to Americans, whether they be immigrants or current citizens. I didn't use the word "immigrants" by accident or in ignorance of its meaning although I realize now that it may have appeared so in the context of this thread. FWIW, I was attempting to counter others who seemed to me to be confusing temporary H1B workers with all foreign born workers which, IMO, would be throwing out the baby with the bath water.
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Actually, I haven't killed anyone or even fired a weapon since I got out of the service. But I would be interested in knowing how many times a day you pray to cow patties - or do you just eat them?
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
Just eat them. Yippee ki-yay!!! Oh, don't confuse that phrase for an Indian war cry, but you wouldn't, you'd know the difference. After all, you civilized the barbarians. More power to you.
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I used to work in the USA on a H1-B visa. I left in 2000 with 2 years left to run on my visa because I preferred my own country. At the time the people I worked with seemed genuinely sad that I didn't want to stay, as they seemed to welcome diversity in their workplace. I never once heard the words 'you've stolen someone's job' or 'cheap labour'. The only articles I read about H1-B visas mentioned the fact that they 'ran out' earlier each year than the last. It seems very strange to me that the country and people I knew back then seems to bear little resemblance to the one I read about now. I wonder what has changed to turn the attitude from 'your welcome in our country, work with us to build something great' to 'go home, foreign worker'. Perhaps it's a vocal minority, but I can't help but think a ground shift in opinion has taken place and opinions are now set in a new direction.
Bruce Chapman iFinity.com.au - Websites and Software Development Plithy remark available in Beta 2
brucerchapman wrote:
At the time the people I worked with seemed genuinely sad that I didn't want to stay, as they seemed to welcome diversity in their workplace.
I doubt that the employees of most jobs decide to like or dislike their fellow workers based on "diversity". I suspect it is much more likely that it was your overall personality which was the factor.
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This is one of those issues that seems to generate incredibly emotional responses and I have to admit that, looking at the bigger picture, I'm mainly just saddened by what we've come to. First off, I believe that America was built by talented, hard-working immigrants that were willing to come to this country and become Americans. We would never be as strong as we are without them and I believe we should continue to encourage participation from like-minded individuals. It saddens me that a large number of Americans seem to feel that we can afford to turn these people away. Criminals and terrorists should certainly be discouraged but not hard-working folk who are simply trying to find a better way of life. Having said that, I'm also saddened by the culture we've built where so many of our children, with their postmodern perspective on life, seem to be rejecting science and technology as viable career choices in favor of quicker (they think) paths to fame and fortune. The perception of so many of them (not all) seems to be that hard work and the pursuit of excellence in one's craft are a sucker's bet when they see the wealth and fame that we heap on performers, professional atheletes, and even reality TV "stars". To completely blame our educational system for this disenchantment is unfair (not that a lot of work isn't needed there) and fails to acknowledge our failure as a society to reward achievement in all worthwhile endeavors. How well attended is the high school science quiz contest (by non-parents) compared to the football game? We all bear responsibility for the ascendancy of entertainment and athletic achievement over scientific and/or technical prowess. What would make me happy would be a society where we understand both the importance of growing our internal brain trust, if you will, and the continuing need for talented, hard working immigrants to continue bringing new ideas to contribute to the overall quality of life here. I really don't see why it has to be one or the other as so many here seem to think.
cjbauman wrote:
First off, I believe that America was built by talented, hard-working immigrants that were willing to come to this country and become Americans. We would never be as strong as we are without them and I believe we should continue to encourage participation from like-minded individuals. It saddens me that a large number of Americans seem to feel that we can afford to turn these people away. Criminals and terrorists should certainly be discouraged but not hard-working folk who are simply trying to find a better way of life.
I am rather certain that throughout most of the US's history there have been protectionists policies in any number of areas. And those policies were often supported by newly arrived immigrants and those that weren't newly arrived as well.