A couple of pro-H1B articles by Americans
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I just chose Wal-Mart as one retailer who sources products from China. It doesn't matter where you go, everything is made in China nowadays. Mattel makes toys in China and ships them worldwide. Can you deny your kids their Christmas presents this December?:sigh:
Kids? What kids? :laugh::rolleyes: On a less flippant note, whenever I can I do buy domestic over import, and anywhere else over PRC.
-- You have to explain to them [VB coders] what you mean by "typed". their first response is likely to be something like, "Of course my code is typed. Do you think i magically project it onto the screen with the power of my mind?" --- John Simmons / outlaw programmer
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Kids? What kids? :laugh::rolleyes: On a less flippant note, whenever I can I do buy domestic over import, and anywhere else over PRC.
-- You have to explain to them [VB coders] what you mean by "typed". their first response is likely to be something like, "Of course my code is typed. Do you think i magically project it onto the screen with the power of my mind?" --- John Simmons / outlaw programmer
dan neely wrote:
Kids? What kids?
You mean to tell me your ex-girkfriends haven't sued you yet for child support? :laugh:
dan neely wrote:
On a less flippant note, whenever I can I do buy domestic over import, and anywhere else over PRC.
Can you buy just a shirt or a pair of shoes made in the USA anymore?:( :(
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Lol @ Oakman!! I gotta hand it to you for vehemently sticking to your stance. Somewhere along I read that you were in the army. Kudos! So you're the friendly neighborhood gun totting trigger happy fire Klan punk, who has an "all trespassers will be shot, survivors will be shot again" warning sign in his front yard. NICE!!! -- modified at 15:33 Tuesday 10th July, 2007
Actually, I haven't killed anyone or even fired a weapon since I got out of the service. But I would be interested in knowing how many times a day you pray to cow patties - or do you just eat them?
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
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cjbauman wrote:
What would make me happy would be a society where we understand both the importance of growing our internal brain trust, if you will, and the continuing need for talented, hard working immigrants to continue bringing new ideas to contribute to the overall quality of life here. I really don't see why it has to be one or the other as so many here seem to think.
Gee, that would make me happy, too. Lets hope that real soon, we find the large areas of unexplored wilderness that will allow us to accept lots of immigrants - however,what you describe is a fantasy -and not particularly pertinent. H1Bs are not immigrants any more than wetbacks are. H1Bs are temporary employees and many/most have every intention of making their bundle and then running home.
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
Yeah, I figured someone would slam me for the utopian tone. It was deliberate but I think it probably completely obfuscated my own position on H1B visas. It was probably a mistake on my part to jump up to a 50,000 foot level when the entire thread is basically a ground-level scrimmage but I was in a philosophical mood. FWIW, I don't really delude myself that what I outlined as an ideal will ever actually happen given the politics involved. While I do support legal immigration of talented workers I don't really feel that I can support raising the limit on H1Bs. I'm well aware that the goal of many, if not most, H1B holders is not permanent immigration and that many of the companies that hire them are doing so disingenuously. Although I take your point regarding the relevance of my post, I did think I was clear that I would prefer that high paying IT jobs in America primarily go to Americans, whether they be immigrants or current citizens. I didn't use the word "immigrants" by accident or in ignorance of its meaning although I realize now that it may have appeared so in the context of this thread. FWIW, I was attempting to counter others who seemed to me to be confusing temporary H1B workers with all foreign born workers which, IMO, would be throwing out the baby with the bath water.
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Oakman wrote:
Another example of corruption imported from India
You mean, you never look around for a better job?
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I used to work in the USA on a H1-B visa. I left in 2000 with 2 years left to run on my visa because I preferred my own country. At the time the people I worked with seemed genuinely sad that I didn't want to stay, as they seemed to welcome diversity in their workplace. I never once heard the words 'you've stolen someone's job' or 'cheap labour'. The only articles I read about H1-B visas mentioned the fact that they 'ran out' earlier each year than the last. It seems very strange to me that the country and people I knew back then seems to bear little resemblance to the one I read about now. I wonder what has changed to turn the attitude from 'your welcome in our country, work with us to build something great' to 'go home, foreign worker'. Perhaps it's a vocal minority, but I can't help but think a ground shift in opinion has taken place and opinions are now set in a new direction.
Bruce Chapman iFinity.com.au - Websites and Software Development Plithy remark available in Beta 2
brucerchapman wrote:
At the time the people I worked with seemed genuinely sad that I didn't want to stay, as they seemed to welcome diversity in their workplace.
I doubt that the employees of most jobs decide to like or dislike their fellow workers based on "diversity". I suspect it is much more likely that it was your overall personality which was the factor.
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Actually, I haven't killed anyone or even fired a weapon since I got out of the service. But I would be interested in knowing how many times a day you pray to cow patties - or do you just eat them?
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
Just eat them. Yippee ki-yay!!! Oh, don't confuse that phrase for an Indian war cry, but you wouldn't, you'd know the difference. After all, you civilized the barbarians. More power to you.
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This is one of those issues that seems to generate incredibly emotional responses and I have to admit that, looking at the bigger picture, I'm mainly just saddened by what we've come to. First off, I believe that America was built by talented, hard-working immigrants that were willing to come to this country and become Americans. We would never be as strong as we are without them and I believe we should continue to encourage participation from like-minded individuals. It saddens me that a large number of Americans seem to feel that we can afford to turn these people away. Criminals and terrorists should certainly be discouraged but not hard-working folk who are simply trying to find a better way of life. Having said that, I'm also saddened by the culture we've built where so many of our children, with their postmodern perspective on life, seem to be rejecting science and technology as viable career choices in favor of quicker (they think) paths to fame and fortune. The perception of so many of them (not all) seems to be that hard work and the pursuit of excellence in one's craft are a sucker's bet when they see the wealth and fame that we heap on performers, professional atheletes, and even reality TV "stars". To completely blame our educational system for this disenchantment is unfair (not that a lot of work isn't needed there) and fails to acknowledge our failure as a society to reward achievement in all worthwhile endeavors. How well attended is the high school science quiz contest (by non-parents) compared to the football game? We all bear responsibility for the ascendancy of entertainment and athletic achievement over scientific and/or technical prowess. What would make me happy would be a society where we understand both the importance of growing our internal brain trust, if you will, and the continuing need for talented, hard working immigrants to continue bringing new ideas to contribute to the overall quality of life here. I really don't see why it has to be one or the other as so many here seem to think.
cjbauman wrote:
First off, I believe that America was built by talented, hard-working immigrants that were willing to come to this country and become Americans. We would never be as strong as we are without them and I believe we should continue to encourage participation from like-minded individuals. It saddens me that a large number of Americans seem to feel that we can afford to turn these people away. Criminals and terrorists should certainly be discouraged but not hard-working folk who are simply trying to find a better way of life.
I am rather certain that throughout most of the US's history there have been protectionists policies in any number of areas. And those policies were often supported by newly arrived immigrants and those that weren't newly arrived as well.
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Just eat them. Yippee ki-yay!!! Oh, don't confuse that phrase for an Indian war cry, but you wouldn't, you'd know the difference. After all, you civilized the barbarians. More power to you.
ViswanathKari wrote:
Just eat them
I bet you do - with a nice curry sauce?
ViswanathKari wrote:
don't confuse that phrase for an Indian war cry
Congrats you insulted the Native Americans, too. Anything else you hate about America?
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
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Yeah, I figured someone would slam me for the utopian tone. It was deliberate but I think it probably completely obfuscated my own position on H1B visas. It was probably a mistake on my part to jump up to a 50,000 foot level when the entire thread is basically a ground-level scrimmage but I was in a philosophical mood. FWIW, I don't really delude myself that what I outlined as an ideal will ever actually happen given the politics involved. While I do support legal immigration of talented workers I don't really feel that I can support raising the limit on H1Bs. I'm well aware that the goal of many, if not most, H1B holders is not permanent immigration and that many of the companies that hire them are doing so disingenuously. Although I take your point regarding the relevance of my post, I did think I was clear that I would prefer that high paying IT jobs in America primarily go to Americans, whether they be immigrants or current citizens. I didn't use the word "immigrants" by accident or in ignorance of its meaning although I realize now that it may have appeared so in the context of this thread. FWIW, I was attempting to counter others who seemed to me to be confusing temporary H1B workers with all foreign born workers which, IMO, would be throwing out the baby with the bath water.
cjbauman wrote:
FWIW, I was attempting to counter others who seemed to me to be confusing temporary H1B workers with all foreign born workers
Well, I for one, have only talked about H1Bs. and I believe I would have reacted quite differently to your post had you made it clear what your goal in talking about immigrants was. Hell, my ancestors had to immigrate into this country twice: back in the 1750's and then again after we got kicked out to Canada when our side lost the Revolution. :laugh:
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
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cjbauman wrote:
First off, I believe that America was built by talented, hard-working immigrants that were willing to come to this country and become Americans. We would never be as strong as we are without them and I believe we should continue to encourage participation from like-minded individuals. It saddens me that a large number of Americans seem to feel that we can afford to turn these people away. Criminals and terrorists should certainly be discouraged but not hard-working folk who are simply trying to find a better way of life.
I am rather certain that throughout most of the US's history there have been protectionists policies in any number of areas. And those policies were often supported by newly arrived immigrants and those that weren't newly arrived as well.
jschell wrote:
I am rather certain that throughout most of the US's history there have been protectionists policies in any number of areas. And those policies were often supported by newly arrived immigrants and those that weren't newly arrived as well.
Sorry, I'm confused about whether you're making an argument or chiming in with additional points. Either is certainly valid; I'm just having difficulty understanding your reply in the context of my post. All I can say that seems at all relevant, is that many real historical actions/events cause sadness.
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cjbauman wrote:
First off, I believe that America was built by talented, hard-working immigrants that were willing to come to this country and become Americans. We would never be as strong as we are without them and I believe we should continue to encourage participation from like-minded individuals. It saddens me that a large number of Americans seem to feel that we can afford to turn these people away. Criminals and terrorists should certainly be discouraged but not hard-working folk who are simply trying to find a better way of life.
I am rather certain that throughout most of the US's history there have been protectionists policies in any number of areas. And those policies were often supported by newly arrived immigrants and those that weren't newly arrived as well.
jschell wrote:
I am rather certain that throughout most of the US's history there have been protectionists policies in any number of areas.
I suspect you are right. Ironically, protectionist policies also used to be supported by big business, not, of course, because they wanted to insure a fair wage and high employment, but so they could out-mansion-build each other in Newport.
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
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jschell wrote:
I am rather certain that throughout most of the US's history there have been protectionists policies in any number of areas. And those policies were often supported by newly arrived immigrants and those that weren't newly arrived as well.
Sorry, I'm confused about whether you're making an argument or chiming in with additional points. Either is certainly valid; I'm just having difficulty understanding your reply in the context of my post. All I can say that seems at all relevant, is that many real historical actions/events cause sadness.
cjbauman wrote:
All I can say that seems at all relevant, is that many real historical actions/events cause sadness.
I imagine that all historical events of any significance do; even those we celebrate. However, given a choice, I'd much rather make the H1B countries sadder than America.
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
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jschell wrote:
I am rather certain that throughout most of the US's history there have been protectionists policies in any number of areas. And those policies were often supported by newly arrived immigrants and those that weren't newly arrived as well.
Sorry, I'm confused about whether you're making an argument or chiming in with additional points. Either is certainly valid; I'm just having difficulty understanding your reply in the context of my post. All I can say that seems at all relevant, is that many real historical actions/events cause sadness.
cjbauman wrote:
Sorry, I'm confused about whether you're making an argument or chiming in with additional points. Either is certainly valid; I'm just having difficulty understanding your reply in the context of my post.
The quoted text to which I replied made the implied suggestion that in the past there was less or no protectionist policies. That is not the case.
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ViswanathKari wrote:
Just eat them
I bet you do - with a nice curry sauce?
ViswanathKari wrote:
don't confuse that phrase for an Indian war cry
Congrats you insulted the Native Americans, too. Anything else you hate about America?
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
ROFL!! I absolutely loved the way you magically read my mind. You're the sole surviving artist in the post-modern youniverse.
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ROFL!! I absolutely loved the way you magically read my mind. You're the sole surviving artist in the post-modern youniverse.
Read your mind? This presupposes you have one. The jury's still out on that. But if it's established that you do, I assure you that not reading your mind is high on my list of precepts to live by.
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
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Vivic wrote:
You mean, you never look around for a better job?
Never had to lie so I could hold more than one visa at a time to do it.
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
One doesn't have to lie. If I have a H1-B visa and I interview with another employer, that employer has to get a fresh H1-B for me before he can hire me. H1-B visas are employer-specific. So, I continue working at my current employer while a fresh visa gets processed by the new employer. That used to take a minimum of three months. In the meanwhile, I might interview with yet another employer and have another H1-B visa in process. Nothing wrong, illegal, immoral or fattening so far! ;P If and when an alternate offer comes along, my situation might be such that I have to decline it but I would have an H1-B approved for that employer. This was the situation for quite a few Indian programmers in 200/2001. In fact, by the time the new visa gets approved, the employer might have lost a client and not be able to hire me. Nobody knows how many of the 115,000 H1-B visas in 2000 were duplicates. The employer has to report termination of an H1-B employee to Immigration but INS (or whatever it is called now) didn't update its books to say a visa was freed up and so available for somebody else. So much of the statistics on H1-B employees is so skewed as to be totally unreliable.
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cjbauman wrote:
Sorry, I'm confused about whether you're making an argument or chiming in with additional points. Either is certainly valid; I'm just having difficulty understanding your reply in the context of my post.
The quoted text to which I replied made the implied suggestion that in the past there was less or no protectionist policies. That is not the case.
Ah! Thanks for the clarification! FWIW, I intended no such implication but I can understand why you saw one where none was intended. So much for intentions, eh? The historical reference (allusion, really) I made was intended to be to the role immigrants played in building the country rather than to any resistance that there may or may not have been to their participation at the time. I seem to be having a real problem expressing myself clearly today...
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Read your mind? This presupposes you have one. The jury's still out on that. But if it's established that you do, I assure you that not reading your mind is high on my list of precepts to live by.
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
Atta boy oakman. *chuckle
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One doesn't have to lie. If I have a H1-B visa and I interview with another employer, that employer has to get a fresh H1-B for me before he can hire me. H1-B visas are employer-specific. So, I continue working at my current employer while a fresh visa gets processed by the new employer. That used to take a minimum of three months. In the meanwhile, I might interview with yet another employer and have another H1-B visa in process. Nothing wrong, illegal, immoral or fattening so far! ;P If and when an alternate offer comes along, my situation might be such that I have to decline it but I would have an H1-B approved for that employer. This was the situation for quite a few Indian programmers in 200/2001. In fact, by the time the new visa gets approved, the employer might have lost a client and not be able to hire me. Nobody knows how many of the 115,000 H1-B visas in 2000 were duplicates. The employer has to report termination of an H1-B employee to Immigration but INS (or whatever it is called now) didn't update its books to say a visa was freed up and so available for somebody else. So much of the statistics on H1-B employees is so skewed as to be totally unreliable.
your original post said: "they had multiple H1-B visas from several different (usually, Indian outsourcing) companies and could jump sjip at the first opportunity." Now you tell a very different tale. Somehow, I think your first post contained a more general truth than this latest revision.
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.