A couple of pro-H1B articles by Americans
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This is one of those issues that seems to generate incredibly emotional responses and I have to admit that, looking at the bigger picture, I'm mainly just saddened by what we've come to. First off, I believe that America was built by talented, hard-working immigrants that were willing to come to this country and become Americans. We would never be as strong as we are without them and I believe we should continue to encourage participation from like-minded individuals. It saddens me that a large number of Americans seem to feel that we can afford to turn these people away. Criminals and terrorists should certainly be discouraged but not hard-working folk who are simply trying to find a better way of life. Having said that, I'm also saddened by the culture we've built where so many of our children, with their postmodern perspective on life, seem to be rejecting science and technology as viable career choices in favor of quicker (they think) paths to fame and fortune. The perception of so many of them (not all) seems to be that hard work and the pursuit of excellence in one's craft are a sucker's bet when they see the wealth and fame that we heap on performers, professional atheletes, and even reality TV "stars". To completely blame our educational system for this disenchantment is unfair (not that a lot of work isn't needed there) and fails to acknowledge our failure as a society to reward achievement in all worthwhile endeavors. How well attended is the high school science quiz contest (by non-parents) compared to the football game? We all bear responsibility for the ascendancy of entertainment and athletic achievement over scientific and/or technical prowess. What would make me happy would be a society where we understand both the importance of growing our internal brain trust, if you will, and the continuing need for talented, hard working immigrants to continue bringing new ideas to contribute to the overall quality of life here. I really don't see why it has to be one or the other as so many here seem to think.
cjbauman wrote:
First off, I believe that America was built by talented, hard-working immigrants that were willing to come to this country and become Americans. We would never be as strong as we are without them and I believe we should continue to encourage participation from like-minded individuals. It saddens me that a large number of Americans seem to feel that we can afford to turn these people away. Criminals and terrorists should certainly be discouraged but not hard-working folk who are simply trying to find a better way of life.
I am rather certain that throughout most of the US's history there have been protectionists policies in any number of areas. And those policies were often supported by newly arrived immigrants and those that weren't newly arrived as well.
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Just eat them. Yippee ki-yay!!! Oh, don't confuse that phrase for an Indian war cry, but you wouldn't, you'd know the difference. After all, you civilized the barbarians. More power to you.
ViswanathKari wrote:
Just eat them
I bet you do - with a nice curry sauce?
ViswanathKari wrote:
don't confuse that phrase for an Indian war cry
Congrats you insulted the Native Americans, too. Anything else you hate about America?
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
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Yeah, I figured someone would slam me for the utopian tone. It was deliberate but I think it probably completely obfuscated my own position on H1B visas. It was probably a mistake on my part to jump up to a 50,000 foot level when the entire thread is basically a ground-level scrimmage but I was in a philosophical mood. FWIW, I don't really delude myself that what I outlined as an ideal will ever actually happen given the politics involved. While I do support legal immigration of talented workers I don't really feel that I can support raising the limit on H1Bs. I'm well aware that the goal of many, if not most, H1B holders is not permanent immigration and that many of the companies that hire them are doing so disingenuously. Although I take your point regarding the relevance of my post, I did think I was clear that I would prefer that high paying IT jobs in America primarily go to Americans, whether they be immigrants or current citizens. I didn't use the word "immigrants" by accident or in ignorance of its meaning although I realize now that it may have appeared so in the context of this thread. FWIW, I was attempting to counter others who seemed to me to be confusing temporary H1B workers with all foreign born workers which, IMO, would be throwing out the baby with the bath water.
cjbauman wrote:
FWIW, I was attempting to counter others who seemed to me to be confusing temporary H1B workers with all foreign born workers
Well, I for one, have only talked about H1Bs. and I believe I would have reacted quite differently to your post had you made it clear what your goal in talking about immigrants was. Hell, my ancestors had to immigrate into this country twice: back in the 1750's and then again after we got kicked out to Canada when our side lost the Revolution. :laugh:
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
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cjbauman wrote:
First off, I believe that America was built by talented, hard-working immigrants that were willing to come to this country and become Americans. We would never be as strong as we are without them and I believe we should continue to encourage participation from like-minded individuals. It saddens me that a large number of Americans seem to feel that we can afford to turn these people away. Criminals and terrorists should certainly be discouraged but not hard-working folk who are simply trying to find a better way of life.
I am rather certain that throughout most of the US's history there have been protectionists policies in any number of areas. And those policies were often supported by newly arrived immigrants and those that weren't newly arrived as well.
jschell wrote:
I am rather certain that throughout most of the US's history there have been protectionists policies in any number of areas. And those policies were often supported by newly arrived immigrants and those that weren't newly arrived as well.
Sorry, I'm confused about whether you're making an argument or chiming in with additional points. Either is certainly valid; I'm just having difficulty understanding your reply in the context of my post. All I can say that seems at all relevant, is that many real historical actions/events cause sadness.
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cjbauman wrote:
First off, I believe that America was built by talented, hard-working immigrants that were willing to come to this country and become Americans. We would never be as strong as we are without them and I believe we should continue to encourage participation from like-minded individuals. It saddens me that a large number of Americans seem to feel that we can afford to turn these people away. Criminals and terrorists should certainly be discouraged but not hard-working folk who are simply trying to find a better way of life.
I am rather certain that throughout most of the US's history there have been protectionists policies in any number of areas. And those policies were often supported by newly arrived immigrants and those that weren't newly arrived as well.
jschell wrote:
I am rather certain that throughout most of the US's history there have been protectionists policies in any number of areas.
I suspect you are right. Ironically, protectionist policies also used to be supported by big business, not, of course, because they wanted to insure a fair wage and high employment, but so they could out-mansion-build each other in Newport.
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
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jschell wrote:
I am rather certain that throughout most of the US's history there have been protectionists policies in any number of areas. And those policies were often supported by newly arrived immigrants and those that weren't newly arrived as well.
Sorry, I'm confused about whether you're making an argument or chiming in with additional points. Either is certainly valid; I'm just having difficulty understanding your reply in the context of my post. All I can say that seems at all relevant, is that many real historical actions/events cause sadness.
cjbauman wrote:
All I can say that seems at all relevant, is that many real historical actions/events cause sadness.
I imagine that all historical events of any significance do; even those we celebrate. However, given a choice, I'd much rather make the H1B countries sadder than America.
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
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jschell wrote:
I am rather certain that throughout most of the US's history there have been protectionists policies in any number of areas. And those policies were often supported by newly arrived immigrants and those that weren't newly arrived as well.
Sorry, I'm confused about whether you're making an argument or chiming in with additional points. Either is certainly valid; I'm just having difficulty understanding your reply in the context of my post. All I can say that seems at all relevant, is that many real historical actions/events cause sadness.
cjbauman wrote:
Sorry, I'm confused about whether you're making an argument or chiming in with additional points. Either is certainly valid; I'm just having difficulty understanding your reply in the context of my post.
The quoted text to which I replied made the implied suggestion that in the past there was less or no protectionist policies. That is not the case.
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ViswanathKari wrote:
Just eat them
I bet you do - with a nice curry sauce?
ViswanathKari wrote:
don't confuse that phrase for an Indian war cry
Congrats you insulted the Native Americans, too. Anything else you hate about America?
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
ROFL!! I absolutely loved the way you magically read my mind. You're the sole surviving artist in the post-modern youniverse.
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ROFL!! I absolutely loved the way you magically read my mind. You're the sole surviving artist in the post-modern youniverse.
Read your mind? This presupposes you have one. The jury's still out on that. But if it's established that you do, I assure you that not reading your mind is high on my list of precepts to live by.
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
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cjbauman wrote:
Sorry, I'm confused about whether you're making an argument or chiming in with additional points. Either is certainly valid; I'm just having difficulty understanding your reply in the context of my post.
The quoted text to which I replied made the implied suggestion that in the past there was less or no protectionist policies. That is not the case.
Ah! Thanks for the clarification! FWIW, I intended no such implication but I can understand why you saw one where none was intended. So much for intentions, eh? The historical reference (allusion, really) I made was intended to be to the role immigrants played in building the country rather than to any resistance that there may or may not have been to their participation at the time. I seem to be having a real problem expressing myself clearly today...
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Vivic wrote:
You mean, you never look around for a better job?
Never had to lie so I could hold more than one visa at a time to do it.
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
One doesn't have to lie. If I have a H1-B visa and I interview with another employer, that employer has to get a fresh H1-B for me before he can hire me. H1-B visas are employer-specific. So, I continue working at my current employer while a fresh visa gets processed by the new employer. That used to take a minimum of three months. In the meanwhile, I might interview with yet another employer and have another H1-B visa in process. Nothing wrong, illegal, immoral or fattening so far! ;P If and when an alternate offer comes along, my situation might be such that I have to decline it but I would have an H1-B approved for that employer. This was the situation for quite a few Indian programmers in 200/2001. In fact, by the time the new visa gets approved, the employer might have lost a client and not be able to hire me. Nobody knows how many of the 115,000 H1-B visas in 2000 were duplicates. The employer has to report termination of an H1-B employee to Immigration but INS (or whatever it is called now) didn't update its books to say a visa was freed up and so available for somebody else. So much of the statistics on H1-B employees is so skewed as to be totally unreliable.
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Read your mind? This presupposes you have one. The jury's still out on that. But if it's established that you do, I assure you that not reading your mind is high on my list of precepts to live by.
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
Atta boy oakman. *chuckle
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One doesn't have to lie. If I have a H1-B visa and I interview with another employer, that employer has to get a fresh H1-B for me before he can hire me. H1-B visas are employer-specific. So, I continue working at my current employer while a fresh visa gets processed by the new employer. That used to take a minimum of three months. In the meanwhile, I might interview with yet another employer and have another H1-B visa in process. Nothing wrong, illegal, immoral or fattening so far! ;P If and when an alternate offer comes along, my situation might be such that I have to decline it but I would have an H1-B approved for that employer. This was the situation for quite a few Indian programmers in 200/2001. In fact, by the time the new visa gets approved, the employer might have lost a client and not be able to hire me. Nobody knows how many of the 115,000 H1-B visas in 2000 were duplicates. The employer has to report termination of an H1-B employee to Immigration but INS (or whatever it is called now) didn't update its books to say a visa was freed up and so available for somebody else. So much of the statistics on H1-B employees is so skewed as to be totally unreliable.
your original post said: "they had multiple H1-B visas from several different (usually, Indian outsourcing) companies and could jump sjip at the first opportunity." Now you tell a very different tale. Somehow, I think your first post contained a more general truth than this latest revision.
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
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I can't speak for the original poster, but I'll put forward my own proposition. A H1B's who is a better candidate that the US applicants taking jobs is good for the local and national economy because it a) as a higher probability of making a better product b) which in turn generates more revenue, which increases company and economic growth, allowing positions to open up to the lesser skilled US workers. I have no proof, but it sounds reasonable enough to me. Which is similar to what the original blog posters were on about. They found better suited overseas applicants, but the difficulty or impossibility in employing them made the less-suitable US applicants the only option, to the detriment of their business. It strikes me that hiring an employee that is unsuitable could potentially be very bad if the cost of training was too high for the business endeavor to survive. On the flip side it could be very good if the employeer trains them the employee hangs around. - Phil
It's really very simple...how much money are you going to make for the company that is hiring you? If you provide enough value, they will pay. But the problem is that just the fact that you can program well doesn't create that value. No. The software must do something new AND very valuable...much more valuable than what you can get out of a box. Basically, all the huge innovative strides have been accomplished. It's the difference between the guys who invented and developed the (insert favorite world-changing invention here) and the guys that work on the assembly line producing it. Which one are you? From what I can tell, most programmers are the assembly-line variety, albeit it's an intellectual assembly-line. You may be highly skilled, but what differentiates you from the highly-skilled welder working in the Ford plant? When you get right down to it, not much. You even share the same mindset :) The reality is simple. it doesn't require an intellectual pissing contest to get to the bottom of it. All it requires is for some people to face the facts. This is the real world, and 'the system' is not broken. It's the same as it has always been. For the record, I'm an American, and I'm tired of the whining.
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If you're going to make the argument about the part not representing the whole, then you can hardly suggest that any given company hiring H1-B holders won't pay qualified locals market rates. Some companies may be taking that approach, some may not. US citizen programmers might pay more tax if they indeed earned more, but since you don't cite any of the studies you mention, that's up for debate as a proposition. Funds sent overseas are only a bad thing on a micro-economic basis - overall, the more dollars floating around the world, the better for the US economy.
citation: http://www.cis.org/articles/2005/back1305.html[^] If you read this, it should make it clear than many (not necessarily all) employers pay bargain basement wages to H1Bs, and end your "debate," all in one fell swoop. As to your proposition that dollars going to folks overseas is better for the U.S. economy than dollars being spent in this country - what are you smoking and can I have some? :laugh:
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
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It's really very simple...how much money are you going to make for the company that is hiring you? If you provide enough value, they will pay. But the problem is that just the fact that you can program well doesn't create that value. No. The software must do something new AND very valuable...much more valuable than what you can get out of a box. Basically, all the huge innovative strides have been accomplished. It's the difference between the guys who invented and developed the (insert favorite world-changing invention here) and the guys that work on the assembly line producing it. Which one are you? From what I can tell, most programmers are the assembly-line variety, albeit it's an intellectual assembly-line. You may be highly skilled, but what differentiates you from the highly-skilled welder working in the Ford plant? When you get right down to it, not much. You even share the same mindset :) The reality is simple. it doesn't require an intellectual pissing contest to get to the bottom of it. All it requires is for some people to face the facts. This is the real world, and 'the system' is not broken. It's the same as it has always been. For the record, I'm an American, and I'm tired of the whining.
I reckon that is a great overview. It's not warm and fuzzy, and paints an accurate picture. - Phil
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your original post said: "they had multiple H1-B visas from several different (usually, Indian outsourcing) companies and could jump sjip at the first opportunity." Now you tell a very different tale. Somehow, I think your first post contained a more general truth than this latest revision.
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
In the first post, I provided my viewpoint as their manager and the one who was subject to pressures to pay more money than my budget could afford. In the second post, I explained how one gets more than one H1-B visa... sometimes intentional, sometimes not so. If you think your current company is shaky, or the job was misrepresented to you, or you don't want to work 60-hour weeks despite getting overtime pay, etc., you apply for another job and have a second H1 visa. I know people for whom companies get H1 visas in India but do not send them to the US because the contract didn't come through. Those guys also might come on a different company's H1 and thus have two H1 visas stamped on their passport. Most companies are legit when it comes to visa status for their employees. The company I worked for was raided by INS and we got a clean bill of health. The business is too valuable to risk it on a couple of shady visa deals.
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John Cardinal wrote:
Yup, exactly right. The bitching heard in response to this kind of thinking comes primarily from the underemployed who, as is typical for most people, prefer to point the blame at others rather than look closely at themselves
You really have no idea what is going on, do you? Well, you just keep telling yourself that, right up until you're asked to train your replacement.
Jon Information doesn't want to be free. It wants to be sixty-nine cents @ pound.
Oakman wrote:
You really have no idea what is going on, do you? Well, you just keep telling yourself that, right up until you're asked to train your replacement.
I've always been one of those people that never had a problem getting a job or keeping one. I'll leave the fear mongering and paranoia to those that are much more deservedly accustomed to it. ;)
"I don't want more choice. I just want better things!" - Edina Monsoon
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Lol @ Oakman!! I gotta hand it to you for vehemently sticking to your stance. Somewhere along I read that you were in the army. Kudos! So you're the friendly neighborhood gun totting trigger happy fire Klan punk, who has an "all trespassers will be shot, survivors will be shot again" warning sign in his front yard. NICE!!! -- modified at 15:33 Tuesday 10th July, 2007
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Most folks who come to the US from India on H1-B visas come from a middle-class background and do not have to support their families back home financially. The cab drivers in New York or Chicago are the ones sending money home to their families and they are not here on H1-B. The vast majority of remittances to India come from blue-collar workers employed in the Middle East. Just like low-skilled Hispanic immigrants working as domestics or agricultural workers in the US repatriate money to Mexico/Central American countries.