win32...MFC...obsolete?
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XML-based operating systems and apps, with code embedded in CDATA blocks. But hey, it'll compress real well, since it's all ASCII. The biggest problem they're working on though is the code security issues. You thought .NET was bad with tools like reflector, but an XML-based OS can be read without even needing a tool, just pop it into notepad. So, that's a problem right now, but there should be some obfuscators coming along to change the XML tokens and mangle the tags, etc. But it makes sense, when you think about it. The backplane for the OS is going to WCF for the communications, which of course is XML-based both in the way you specify the I/O endpoints and the packets themselves, and then there's WF, the workflow foundation, which will manage the OS's low level thread and resource allocation, completely XML specified, and the shining jewel is WPF with XAML for all the XML-based UI components. Really. Marc
What do you think of this guy's opinion? He is Allen Holub from Holub.com http://www.sdtimes.com/fullcolumn/column-20060901-05.html[^] "XML is perhaps the worst programming language ever conceived. I’m not talking about XML as a data-description language, which was its original design. I’m talking about perverting XML for programming applications. It’s inappropriate to use XML as a scripting language (e.g., ANT), a test-description language (e.g., TestNG), an object-relational mapping language (e.g., Hibernate, JDO), a control-flow language (e.g., JSF), and so forth. These sorts of XML “programs” are unreadable, unmaintainable, an order of magnitude larger than necessary, and audaciously inefficient at runtime."
-------------------------------- "All that is necessary for the forces of evil to win in the world is for enough good men to do nothing" -- Edmund Burke
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What do you think of this guy's opinion? He is Allen Holub from Holub.com http://www.sdtimes.com/fullcolumn/column-20060901-05.html[^] "XML is perhaps the worst programming language ever conceived. I’m not talking about XML as a data-description language, which was its original design. I’m talking about perverting XML for programming applications. It’s inappropriate to use XML as a scripting language (e.g., ANT), a test-description language (e.g., TestNG), an object-relational mapping language (e.g., Hibernate, JDO), a control-flow language (e.g., JSF), and so forth. These sorts of XML “programs” are unreadable, unmaintainable, an order of magnitude larger than necessary, and audaciously inefficient at runtime."
-------------------------------- "All that is necessary for the forces of evil to win in the world is for enough good men to do nothing" -- Edmund Burke
Richie308 wrote:
I’m not talking about XML as a data-description language
The point is, the line is getting fuzzy between execution description and data description. Scripts, workflows, states, decision graphs, ORM, etc., all sit somewhere in the middle, because a lot of these things have to express data, relationships, and map to code units. So, I think he's trying to see everything in black and white when there are a lot of shades of gray. Marc
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deostroll wrote:
Is the win32 platform going obsolete? Is it being replaced by the dotnet framework or something like that?
There's this CPian guy here - I forget his name, from Texas. Fellow was dead against .NET and kept saying garbage collection sucks and all that. Last I heard he's been running around in a mad rush trying to get a .NET job. He's even porting some of his C++ code into C#. That says it for you I think. Now if only I could remember who I am talking about. :rolleyes:
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com linkPeople change, but their old posts don't. :) Marc
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Is the win32 platform going obsolete? Is it being replaced by the dotnet framework or something like that?
I've been hearing this kind of talk for ages but neither MFC nor Win32 is “dead” yet or, by the looks of things, will be in the near future. There is little doubt that .NET has sparked a lot of interest from the developer community and that managed languages have many advantages over their un-managed brethren (as things stand the reverse is also true however), but the rumors of Win32’s and MFC’s death have been greatly exaggerated.
Steve
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Richie308 wrote:
I’m not talking about XML as a data-description language
The point is, the line is getting fuzzy between execution description and data description. Scripts, workflows, states, decision graphs, ORM, etc., all sit somewhere in the middle, because a lot of these things have to express data, relationships, and map to code units. So, I think he's trying to see everything in black and white when there are a lot of shades of gray. Marc
Marc Clifton wrote:
Scripts, workflows, states, decision graphs, ORM, etc., all sit somewhere in the middle, because a lot of these things have to express data, relationships, and map to code units.
No hardware can directly execute XML, so what do you mean when you say that OS's will be based on XML? Maybe there will be some layer that interprets the XML, but that layer itself needs to run in some kind of context, and that context is most likely going to be written in C or C++.
-------------------------------- "All that is necessary for the forces of evil to win in the world is for enough good men to do nothing" -- Edmund Burke
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Marc Clifton wrote:
Scripts, workflows, states, decision graphs, ORM, etc., all sit somewhere in the middle, because a lot of these things have to express data, relationships, and map to code units.
No hardware can directly execute XML, so what do you mean when you say that OS's will be based on XML? Maybe there will be some layer that interprets the XML, but that layer itself needs to run in some kind of context, and that context is most likely going to be written in C or C++.
-------------------------------- "All that is necessary for the forces of evil to win in the world is for enough good men to do nothing" -- Edmund Burke
Richie308 wrote:
No hardware can directly execute XML, so what do you mean when you say that OS's will be based on XML?
I was making a joke without using the joke icon to see who would fall for it. :-D (The clue was the "Really" at the end.) Marc
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Is the win32 platform going obsolete? Is it being replaced by the dotnet framework or something like that?
deostroll wrote:
Is the win32 platform going obsolete?
Yep.
deostroll wrote:
Is it being replaced by the dotnet framework
That's obsolete as well.
deostroll wrote:
or something like that?
Yep - JavaScript.
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Richie308 wrote:
No hardware can directly execute XML, so what do you mean when you say that OS's will be based on XML?
I was making a joke without using the joke icon to see who would fall for it. :-D (The clue was the "Really" at the end.) Marc
:doh: Good one! I forgot you were the one who wrote the article about not using "int".
-------------------------------- "All that is necessary for the forces of evil to win in the world is for enough good men to do nothing" -- Edmund Burke
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Is the win32 platform going obsolete? Is it being replaced by the dotnet framework or something like that?
I think using MFC for new projects is not the most money making proposition you can take on. However, I think it's wrong to suggest win32 is obsolete. There are several tools that have built up on top of it, such as wxWidgets that are thriving. Win32 is fast and down to the metal. :-) For a small project, WTL is perfect, fast, and requires NO dependencies. If you have to build a generic corporate internal software project, sure .NET is the only thing that makes sense. But if you want to work on the big juicy projects such as MS Office or some from Adobe, or any other windows application, you better know C++ and Win32 :-).
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Is the win32 platform going obsolete? Is it being replaced by the dotnet framework or something like that?
deostroll wrote:
Is the win32 platform going obsolete?
For most applications, yes. Microsoft would very much like it to, so yes, it will, though as mentioned, it is still holding on much to MS's dismay.
deostroll wrote:
Is it being replaced by the dotnet framework or something like that?
For many things, for a great majority of business software, absolutely it already has. However, there are other things affecting even dotNet in the near future. Will it be obsoleted too? probably, but maybe not. Will managed languages replace all programming on the planet for all applications, in all environments, in all industries, etc., etc., etc..... No. Nor will everything I do affect dotNet and its environs. That is just life. dotNet, and any successor environment will allways have advantagees in certain environments. Other ways will have the same in thiers. The honest truth is that Microsoft is not trying to please all the people all of the time, nor should anyone expect them to. They are in it for the money (don't fool yourself into thinking they are doing it for your well being). But this is not a bad thing, per se. Improvements in workflow that affect the vast majority of programmers, is what they are there to do. Sometimes they make mistakes, feedback sets them straight. Sometimes they do good, feedback encourages them for more. That is life. I can wave some muscle, and have, to influence a small decision or two. But I don't fool myself into thinking I will ever fully change the MS business model. Do what you can, learn what you can, and move on if you have to. That is life. Some things change, and some things stay the same.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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deostroll wrote:
Is the win32 platform going obsolete?
For most applications, yes. Microsoft would very much like it to, so yes, it will, though as mentioned, it is still holding on much to MS's dismay.
deostroll wrote:
Is it being replaced by the dotnet framework or something like that?
For many things, for a great majority of business software, absolutely it already has. However, there are other things affecting even dotNet in the near future. Will it be obsoleted too? probably, but maybe not. Will managed languages replace all programming on the planet for all applications, in all environments, in all industries, etc., etc., etc..... No. Nor will everything I do affect dotNet and its environs. That is just life. dotNet, and any successor environment will allways have advantagees in certain environments. Other ways will have the same in thiers. The honest truth is that Microsoft is not trying to please all the people all of the time, nor should anyone expect them to. They are in it for the money (don't fool yourself into thinking they are doing it for your well being). But this is not a bad thing, per se. Improvements in workflow that affect the vast majority of programmers, is what they are there to do. Sometimes they make mistakes, feedback sets them straight. Sometimes they do good, feedback encourages them for more. That is life. I can wave some muscle, and have, to influence a small decision or two. But I don't fool myself into thinking I will ever fully change the MS business model. Do what you can, learn what you can, and move on if you have to. That is life. Some things change, and some things stay the same.
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
So, L, what I get from that is javascript IS the way to go, right? Mark
Mark Salsbery Microsoft MVP - Visual C++ :java:
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Is the win32 platform going obsolete? Is it being replaced by the dotnet framework or something like that?
No. The .NET Framework is seen as "just another application" as far as Windows is concerned. It is not a replacement for anything. Heck, even WPF applications live within an HWND.
:josh: My WPF Blog[^] The greatest danger for most of us is not that our aim is too high and we miss it, but that it is too low and we reach it. - Michelangelo (1475-1564)
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deostroll wrote:
Is the win32 platform going obsolete? Is it being replaced by the dotnet framework or something like that?
There's this CPian guy here - I forget his name, from Texas. Fellow was dead against .NET and kept saying garbage collection sucks and all that. Last I heard he's been running around in a mad rush trying to get a .NET job. He's even porting some of his C++ code into C#. That says it for you I think. Now if only I could remember who I am talking about. :rolleyes:
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com linkNishant Sivakumar wrote:
There's this CPian guy here - I forget his name, from Texas. Fellow was dead against .NET and kept saying garbage collection sucks and all that. Last I heard he's been running around in a mad rush trying to get a .NET job. He's even porting some of his C++ code into C#. That says it for you I think. Now if only I could remember who I am talking about. :rolleyes:
Now go tie a kerosine soaked rag around your ankles while there's still someting left of your ass:-> Roswell:-D P.S. Although on the serious side, he's only doing this because on the current job all the work he can get is Classic ASP, meaning it's VBScript. Pretty nasty eh? I mean which evil do you think is worse?
"Angelinos -- excuse me. There will be civility today."
Antonio VillaRaigosa
City Mayor, Los Angeles, CA -
So, L, what I get from that is javascript IS the way to go, right? Mark
Mark Salsbery Microsoft MVP - Visual C++ :java:
Mark Salsbery wrote:
javascript IS the way to go, right?
nope coffee lisp -- modified at 0:24 Tuesday 31st July, 2007
_________________________ Asu no koto o ieba, tenjo de nezumi ga warau. Talk about things of tomorrow and the mice in the ceiling laugh. (Japanese Proverb)
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Is the win32 platform going obsolete? Is it being replaced by the dotnet framework or something like that?
deostroll wrote:
replaced
Rather they would complement the efforts of each other instead of resorting to cheap supplanting. :mad:
Vasudevan Deepak Kumar Personal Homepage Tech Gossips
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Is the win32 platform going obsolete? Is it being replaced by the dotnet framework or something like that?
deostroll wrote:
Is the win32 platform going obsolete?
I seem to recall a recent observation that even .NET might be considered obsolete already. I can only say that while I likely will never write an application using direct Win32 APIs again, the fundamental knowledge of how they work is extremely valuable. The same with MFC, as some of the recent discussion threads have brought up. I feel it's all about understanding the layers. Like using the best language for a given job, a well rounded programmer should have a good knowledge of all the API layers and choose the appropriate level for the application. Programming exclusively at the .NET level only limits your potential.
QRZ? de WAØTTN
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People change, but their old posts don't. :) Marc
Marc Clifton wrote:
People change, but their old posts don't
Established Trademark and Tangible Cyber-Presence :)
Vasudevan Deepak Kumar Personal Homepage Tech Gossips
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XML-based operating systems and apps, with code embedded in CDATA blocks. But hey, it'll compress real well, since it's all ASCII. The biggest problem they're working on though is the code security issues. You thought .NET was bad with tools like reflector, but an XML-based OS can be read without even needing a tool, just pop it into notepad. So, that's a problem right now, but there should be some obfuscators coming along to change the XML tokens and mangle the tags, etc. But it makes sense, when you think about it. The backplane for the OS is going to WCF for the communications, which of course is XML-based both in the way you specify the I/O endpoints and the packets themselves, and then there's WF, the workflow foundation, which will manage the OS's low level thread and resource allocation, completely XML specified, and the shining jewel is WPF with XAML for all the XML-based UI components. Really. Marc
I can see documents like this coming along: ... The whole application has to be encrypted and can only be decrypted by people with a valid license ;P Of course you'd have to buy those rather expensive source licenses, because you have the source of the app after decrypting it. WM. What about weapons of mass-construction? "What? Its an Apple MacBook Pro. They are sexy!" - Paul Watson My blog
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deostroll wrote:
Is the win32 platform going obsolete? Is it being replaced by the dotnet framework or something like that?
There's this CPian guy here - I forget his name, from Texas. Fellow was dead against .NET and kept saying garbage collection sucks and all that. Last I heard he's been running around in a mad rush trying to get a .NET job. He's even porting some of his C++ code into C#. That says it for you I think. Now if only I could remember who I am talking about. :rolleyes:
Regards, Nish
Nish’s thoughts on MFC, C++/CLI and .NET (my blog)
My latest book : C++/CLI in Action / Amazon.com linkI've been saying all along, MFC is well past is sell by date, .net is the only real way to go for modern development, I pity the poor souls still clinging on to there MFC/C++/COM world. I know well spent alot of time with MFC/ATL/COM but it's time to let go and move on, after all it's what ITs about?
Roger Irrelevant "he's completely hatstand"
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What do you think of this guy's opinion? He is Allen Holub from Holub.com http://www.sdtimes.com/fullcolumn/column-20060901-05.html[^] "XML is perhaps the worst programming language ever conceived. I’m not talking about XML as a data-description language, which was its original design. I’m talking about perverting XML for programming applications. It’s inappropriate to use XML as a scripting language (e.g., ANT), a test-description language (e.g., TestNG), an object-relational mapping language (e.g., Hibernate, JDO), a control-flow language (e.g., JSF), and so forth. These sorts of XML “programs” are unreadable, unmaintainable, an order of magnitude larger than necessary, and audaciously inefficient at runtime."
-------------------------------- "All that is necessary for the forces of evil to win in the world is for enough good men to do nothing" -- Edmund Burke
And this[^] is why you shouldn't use XML as (say) a programming language...or any language that people have to write (or read, ideally). It's pretty easy to write parsers for simple little languages (which is what most XML-based applications tend to be) that have a direct mapping to the semantic information in the XML, without requiring all the tag-laden boilerplate. ANTLR[^] is a good place to start - and it's purely a coincidence that the guy who wrote the XML article is the guy who develops Antlr...
