Hiring Graduates
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The company I work for is having a terrible time hiring quality software developers. It seems that they just don't exist. We received in total about 20 CVs from various sources. We interviewed 5 of those, only one got to the second interview stage. We are thinking that perhaps the best thing to do is to spend our budget on a couple of graduates fresh out of university and train them up. The previous company I worked for did that, but I wasn't involved with that aspect. Does anyone have any advice for hiring graduates?
Upcoming FREE developer events: * Glasgow: Agile in the Enterprise Vs. ISVs, Mock Objects, SQL Server CLR Integration, Reporting Services, db4o, Dependency Injection with Spring ... * Reading: SQL Bits My website
Our approach is to bring likely candidates in as interns while they're still in school. If they work out well, they're made an offer when they graduate. I've been there long enough that I've seen this work really well. It certainly has worked better than some of the 'fresh hires' we've brought in and then had to retrain. The bad thing about recent graduates (folks with less than five years of experience) is that they've usually been in only one job situation. Some of them tend to think that that one environment is the only way to do things, and have trouble adapting. We sometimes follow a similar approach with experienced hires. We bring them in as contractors, and if they are a good fit, make them an offer of a permanent position. Matter of fact, that was how I was hired 17 years ago.
Software Zen:
delete this; -
bryce wrote:
some of us clever trouser types to be found here on CP have quite some experience in it :)
...and I do it in the nude while drinking beer!
Michael Martin Australia "I controlled my laughter and simple said "No,I am very busy,so I can't write any code for you". The moment they heard this all the smiling face turned into a sad looking face and one of them farted. So I had to leave the place as soon as possible." - Mr.Prakash 24/04/2004
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The company I work for is having a terrible time hiring quality software developers. It seems that they just don't exist. We received in total about 20 CVs from various sources. We interviewed 5 of those, only one got to the second interview stage. We are thinking that perhaps the best thing to do is to spend our budget on a couple of graduates fresh out of university and train them up. The previous company I worked for did that, but I wasn't involved with that aspect. Does anyone have any advice for hiring graduates?
Upcoming FREE developer events: * Glasgow: Agile in the Enterprise Vs. ISVs, Mock Objects, SQL Server CLR Integration, Reporting Services, db4o, Dependency Injection with Spring ... * Reading: SQL Bits My website
Colin Angus Mackay wrote:
The company I work for is having a terrible time hiring quality software developers.
Welcome to the club.
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Did any of us??? :)
Rob Manderson My bloghttp://robmanderson.blogspot.com[^]
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The company I work for is having a terrible time hiring quality software developers. It seems that they just don't exist. We received in total about 20 CVs from various sources. We interviewed 5 of those, only one got to the second interview stage. We are thinking that perhaps the best thing to do is to spend our budget on a couple of graduates fresh out of university and train them up. The previous company I worked for did that, but I wasn't involved with that aspect. Does anyone have any advice for hiring graduates?
Upcoming FREE developer events: * Glasgow: Agile in the Enterprise Vs. ISVs, Mock Objects, SQL Server CLR Integration, Reporting Services, db4o, Dependency Injection with Spring ... * Reading: SQL Bits My website
Colin Angus Mackay wrote:
The company I work for is having a terrible time hiring quality software developers.
Hell, I think McDonald's is even having a hard time finding quality deep fry technicians (my fries are always soggy), so it's not just our industry. It's that dad blasted internet, rotting our children's brains and making them lazy! :laugh::laugh:
- S 50 cups of coffee and you know it's on!
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Did any of us??? :)
Rob Manderson My bloghttp://robmanderson.blogspot.com[^]
Rob Manderson wrote:
Did any of us???
:) Of course you did. Now what was the it I was referring too?
Michael Martin Australia "I controlled my laughter and simple said "No,I am very busy,so I can't write any code for you". The moment they heard this all the smiling face turned into a sad looking face and one of them farted. So I had to leave the place as soon as possible." - Mr.Prakash 24/04/2004
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The company I work for is having a terrible time hiring quality software developers. It seems that they just don't exist. We received in total about 20 CVs from various sources. We interviewed 5 of those, only one got to the second interview stage. We are thinking that perhaps the best thing to do is to spend our budget on a couple of graduates fresh out of university and train them up. The previous company I worked for did that, but I wasn't involved with that aspect. Does anyone have any advice for hiring graduates?
Upcoming FREE developer events: * Glasgow: Agile in the Enterprise Vs. ISVs, Mock Objects, SQL Server CLR Integration, Reporting Services, db4o, Dependency Injection with Spring ... * Reading: SQL Bits My website
Hmmm..normally I would think you're taking the right approach. I'd take a seasoned developer with no formal training at all over a recent graduate. In fact I'd rather have a keener with almost no experience over a graduate but that's probably just me. I feel like it would take at least a year to rub all the ivory tower stuff off the graduate so they could be half ways useful. You may run into the problem that a graduate will expect a ridiculous salary right out of the gate and may take the experience they get with you and move on to something higher paying since you obviously can't pay them what you would pay an experienced developer. That's a tough one. I think if you choose to do it then you should go all the way and make it a big deal with your company, liase with the universities, maybe co-op and stuff. Seriously...you can't even headhunt someone with experience from another company? Or let someone work remotely from home? Perhaps you're not offering enough incentive? -- modified at 1:11 Thursday 16th August, 2007
"I don't want more choice. I just want better things!" - Edina Monsoon
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I think it is worth finding someone who can learn, then it doesn't really matter if they have experience. Even if someone has experience, if it takes them ten years to learn a new concept, that is not useful. Plus - if you get graduates they will not be "stuck in their ways" and they will (hopefully) not think they actually know anything, so they will be easier to integrate into you companies ideal work strategies and methodologies. I know you didn't really ask WHETHER you should hire graduates, but I think the "suitability for brainwashing" is so seldom brought up normally that I thought I should ;)
"Your typical day is full of moments where you ask for a cup of coffee and someone hands you a bag of nails." - Scott Adams
standgale wrote:
Plus - if you get graduates they will not be "stuck in their ways" and they will (hopefully) not think they actually know anything, so they will be easier to integrate into you companies ideal work strategies and methodologies. I know you didn't really ask WHETHER you should hire graduates, but I think the "suitability for brainwashing" is so seldom brought up normally that I thought I should
Hmm..I feel exactly the opposite about this. Most graduates seem to think they know it all already and have a hard time learning how coding and design happens in the real world outside an ivory tower where considerations like what the customer actually needs and wants and budgets and time frames etc all come down like a sack of rocks on their heads. Sadly some of them never seem to lose this attitude and you can see it on display here sometimes in the lounge.
"I don't want more choice. I just want better things!" - Edina Monsoon
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bryce wrote:
some of us clever trouser types to be found here on CP have quite some experience in it :)
...and I do it in the nude while drinking beer!
Michael Martin Australia "I controlled my laughter and simple said "No,I am very busy,so I can't write any code for you". The moment they heard this all the smiling face turned into a sad looking face and one of them farted. So I had to leave the place as soon as possible." - Mr.Prakash 24/04/2004
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standgale wrote:
Plus - if you get graduates they will not be "stuck in their ways" and they will (hopefully) not think they actually know anything, so they will be easier to integrate into you companies ideal work strategies and methodologies. I know you didn't really ask WHETHER you should hire graduates, but I think the "suitability for brainwashing" is so seldom brought up normally that I thought I should
Hmm..I feel exactly the opposite about this. Most graduates seem to think they know it all already and have a hard time learning how coding and design happens in the real world outside an ivory tower where considerations like what the customer actually needs and wants and budgets and time frames etc all come down like a sack of rocks on their heads. Sadly some of them never seem to lose this attitude and you can see it on display here sometimes in the lounge.
"I don't want more choice. I just want better things!" - Edina Monsoon
oh well - all depends I suppose. I have found and heard a few cases where people are too busy talking about the way they do things and the things they have done, rather than doing things to fit in with the way everyone else does things. And they want to continue doing it their way, regardless. Whereas a graduate doesn't even have a way to do things yet, so you can give them one :) Plus, the people I know were more terrified when they got their first programming job than thinking they know everything. Some great people I knew at uni probably WOULD have a problem with customers and timeframes because they just program all the time and creatively and they really DO know a massive amount - and you can't let anything, like eating, or customers, get in the way of programming the thing, whatever the thing is. True hackers. Of course, if you can control them and get them to work on their work, then they will be brilliant and you'll get a lot of random extra contribution besides.
"Your typical day is full of moments where you ask for a cup of coffee and someone hands you a bag of nails." - Scott Adams
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oh well - all depends I suppose. I have found and heard a few cases where people are too busy talking about the way they do things and the things they have done, rather than doing things to fit in with the way everyone else does things. And they want to continue doing it their way, regardless. Whereas a graduate doesn't even have a way to do things yet, so you can give them one :) Plus, the people I know were more terrified when they got their first programming job than thinking they know everything. Some great people I knew at uni probably WOULD have a problem with customers and timeframes because they just program all the time and creatively and they really DO know a massive amount - and you can't let anything, like eating, or customers, get in the way of programming the thing, whatever the thing is. True hackers. Of course, if you can control them and get them to work on their work, then they will be brilliant and you'll get a lot of random extra contribution besides.
"Your typical day is full of moments where you ask for a cup of coffee and someone hands you a bag of nails." - Scott Adams
"I have found and heard a few cases..." This doesn't read correctly. It is supposed to be a combination of "I have found that..." and "I have heard of a few cases....". A mixture of people I know and people who are known by people I know.
"Your typical day is full of moments where you ask for a cup of coffee and someone hands you a bag of nails." - Scott Adams
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oh well - all depends I suppose. I have found and heard a few cases where people are too busy talking about the way they do things and the things they have done, rather than doing things to fit in with the way everyone else does things. And they want to continue doing it their way, regardless. Whereas a graduate doesn't even have a way to do things yet, so you can give them one :) Plus, the people I know were more terrified when they got their first programming job than thinking they know everything. Some great people I knew at uni probably WOULD have a problem with customers and timeframes because they just program all the time and creatively and they really DO know a massive amount - and you can't let anything, like eating, or customers, get in the way of programming the thing, whatever the thing is. True hackers. Of course, if you can control them and get them to work on their work, then they will be brilliant and you'll get a lot of random extra contribution besides.
"Your typical day is full of moments where you ask for a cup of coffee and someone hands you a bag of nails." - Scott Adams
Yeah that's all true. I wonder why they don't teach practical things at university in addition to the technical stuff? It would sure make life easier for the employers. I guess that's why doing a co-op is such a good idea as others mentioned, for both the potential employer and the student.
standgale wrote:
Some great people I knew at uni probably WOULD have a problem with customers and timeframes because they just program all the time and creatively and they really DO know a massive amount - and you can't let anything, like eating, or customers, get in the way of programming the thing, whatever the thing is. True hackers. Of course, if you can control them and get them to work on their work, then they will be brilliant and you'll get a lot of random extra contribution besides.
I used to be one of those guys, not necessarily brilliant but very hackerish, running your own company will grind off those rough edges pretty quickly, but in this day and age it's rapidly becoming the only choice for an uber hacker type person. Programming has become corporatized so heavily and programmers have become a near commodity (not the great ones but the adequate ones) that no corporation really want's to tolerate a classic hacker type antisocial sort of programmer any more. They expect meetings and cubicles and reports and all that foofarall that drove me away from working for the "man". All you really need these days to make a good living with that type of personality is several good ideas or one great idea, an excellent business partner who can tolerate you and a computer with high speed internet access.
"I don't want more choice. I just want better things!" - Edina Monsoon
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Yeah that's all true. I wonder why they don't teach practical things at university in addition to the technical stuff? It would sure make life easier for the employers. I guess that's why doing a co-op is such a good idea as others mentioned, for both the potential employer and the student.
standgale wrote:
Some great people I knew at uni probably WOULD have a problem with customers and timeframes because they just program all the time and creatively and they really DO know a massive amount - and you can't let anything, like eating, or customers, get in the way of programming the thing, whatever the thing is. True hackers. Of course, if you can control them and get them to work on their work, then they will be brilliant and you'll get a lot of random extra contribution besides.
I used to be one of those guys, not necessarily brilliant but very hackerish, running your own company will grind off those rough edges pretty quickly, but in this day and age it's rapidly becoming the only choice for an uber hacker type person. Programming has become corporatized so heavily and programmers have become a near commodity (not the great ones but the adequate ones) that no corporation really want's to tolerate a classic hacker type antisocial sort of programmer any more. They expect meetings and cubicles and reports and all that foofarall that drove me away from working for the "man". All you really need these days to make a good living with that type of personality is several good ideas or one great idea, an excellent business partner who can tolerate you and a computer with high speed internet access.
"I don't want more choice. I just want better things!" - Edina Monsoon
The fairly brilliant guy I know is working for a start-up gaming company started by a friend of his. In first year uni, we had a Java lab where the point was "using buttons". We basically had to put a button on a form and make it do something when clicked. Pretty retarded purpose to spend 3 hours on. Anyway, he didn't like the buttons in Java because they lacked customisability and exciting functionality - so what do you do? You write your own buttons of course. Pretty cool for a beginners level programming course. (He had experience in BASIC, as most of us with any programming experience did, but I believe that's all) Of course the tutor wouldn't mark his program and made him do it again using the proper buttons. That guy (the tutor) was a bit of a .
"Your typical day is full of moments where you ask for a cup of coffee and someone hands you a bag of nails." - Scott Adams
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The fairly brilliant guy I know is working for a start-up gaming company started by a friend of his. In first year uni, we had a Java lab where the point was "using buttons". We basically had to put a button on a form and make it do something when clicked. Pretty retarded purpose to spend 3 hours on. Anyway, he didn't like the buttons in Java because they lacked customisability and exciting functionality - so what do you do? You write your own buttons of course. Pretty cool for a beginners level programming course. (He had experience in BASIC, as most of us with any programming experience did, but I believe that's all) Of course the tutor wouldn't mark his program and made him do it again using the proper buttons. That guy (the tutor) was a bit of a .
"Your typical day is full of moments where you ask for a cup of coffee and someone hands you a bag of nails." - Scott Adams
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Rob Manderson wrote:
Did any of us???
:) Of course you did. Now what was the it I was referring too?
Michael Martin Australia "I controlled my laughter and simple said "No,I am very busy,so I can't write any code for you". The moment they heard this all the smiling face turned into a sad looking face and one of them farted. So I had to leave the place as soon as possible." - Mr.Prakash 24/04/2004
"It" could be anything but you would still be nude!!!
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Shog9 wrote:
And with that, Paul closed his browser, sipped his herbal tea, fixed the flower in his hair, and smiled brightly at the multitude of cute, furry animals flocking around the grassy hillside where he sat coding Ruby on his Mac...
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The company I work for is having a terrible time hiring quality software developers. It seems that they just don't exist. We received in total about 20 CVs from various sources. We interviewed 5 of those, only one got to the second interview stage. We are thinking that perhaps the best thing to do is to spend our budget on a couple of graduates fresh out of university and train them up. The previous company I worked for did that, but I wasn't involved with that aspect. Does anyone have any advice for hiring graduates?
Upcoming FREE developer events: * Glasgow: Agile in the Enterprise Vs. ISVs, Mock Objects, SQL Server CLR Integration, Reporting Services, db4o, Dependency Injection with Spring ... * Reading: SQL Bits My website
We are part of a college and we hire plenty of graduates.
Colin Angus Mackay wrote:
Does anyone have any advice for hiring graduates?
The guys who get the highest scores aren't always the best guys. I never used to do much with references but with graduates it is very useful. These kids just spent four years being lectured by someone. Go ask that someone what they think of the kid. And don't ask questions that have answers from a book e.g. In OO, what is an interface. These guys just graduated, they remember all the names but little of the meaning. I also put a lot of weight on the projects they did as opposed to their written exams. Ask to see the project, look at the code and ask them to explain what they did and why they did it that way. Last bit of advice, and this applies to any programmer IMO, is to ask; When did you start using computers? Our best hires have always been guys who started young and have computers at home. Our worst hires are super clever kids who took the computer course having never used computers before but thinking it was a good career move. The good guys will show a passion for computers. They go home and code, they wake up in the mornings and code, they do their own projects and not just what college told them to do. Finally; Don't let them have root privileges. One of our grads did "sudo rm -r" on /.
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Shog9 wrote:
And with that, Paul closed his browser, sipped his herbal tea, fixed the flower in his hair, and smiled brightly at the multitude of cute, furry animals flocking around the grassy hillside where he sat coding Ruby on his Mac...
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Colin Angus Mackay wrote:
Does anyone have any advice for hiring graduates?
The two things I would value in a candidate (especially a graduate) is someone who is good at problem solving and perhaps more importantly willing and enthusiastic to learn. With a graduate they may not have the experience but hopefully with those traits they can be worked into a quality software developer. I.e. a bit like an internship by the company investing some time in them and hopefully they will return the favour later on. But then again I may be biased as I'm beginning on the road to becoming a graduate :rolleyes:
Well said. Although for many small companies this means a big investment of time and effort from the existing staff.. which in turn reduces productivity. If you have the time to take this view it's great. But many small companies don't have that luxury. I'm a one-man-band, and have tried getting help from other contractors but have not yet found anyone who can code to a level I am happy with. The last one managed to write a single function 600 lines long in his part of my system.. urgh! Needless to say my aim would be to find a good graduate (or even near-graduate looking for temp work!) and start moulding their skills :)
'Howard
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The company I work for is having a terrible time hiring quality software developers. It seems that they just don't exist. We received in total about 20 CVs from various sources. We interviewed 5 of those, only one got to the second interview stage. We are thinking that perhaps the best thing to do is to spend our budget on a couple of graduates fresh out of university and train them up. The previous company I worked for did that, but I wasn't involved with that aspect. Does anyone have any advice for hiring graduates?
Upcoming FREE developer events: * Glasgow: Agile in the Enterprise Vs. ISVs, Mock Objects, SQL Server CLR Integration, Reporting Services, db4o, Dependency Injection with Spring ... * Reading: SQL Bits My website
Let me answer the question negatively. The following aspects are what I don't like in young graduates of CS, but almost all of them exhibit it (may be, a result of the dilution of educational standards, perhaps, as engineering education got mobilized to masses--esp. in India). -- Inability to think differently about the same issue. Intransigence (as a virtue) is one thing. But the lack of that ability to think on the fly is quite another. Software is intangible. Even if I have to get the full meaning of an idea across, the other fellow has to be able to leave a repetitive (perhaps rotten) track, and think about the different dimensions of the problem. -- A queer obsession with what is "practical." A lot of university graduates think (and perhaps have been encouraged in the university to think) that what they do at the university / college is not going to be useful in practice. As a result, if I ask them to explain very basic things, they often do not know anything beyond superficial sort of knowledge. The CS graduates might be able to answer very basic things like, for instance, how quick-sort works. But scratch the surface and ask, e.g., something like the following: In quick-sort, you partition the data into two branches. Is this the reason why the complexity is O(N log_2 N)? The rationale being, the first term, N, because you partition N no of times, and the second term (the log_2 term), you have to divide the data by partitioning. It's surprising how many BS in CS will *very confidently* give you a perfectly wrong answer to *that* question--both here in India, and out there, in the US. (And note, I am *not* talking about *detailed* questions like comparing shell-sort with quick-sort. I am just asking a little bit below the surface about quick-sort. Yet, I've seen university-educated people go so easily wrong!) Of course, none is going to write his own quick-sort in the job. But the insights you gain in studying some great algorithms like that *always* come in handy in writing *any* good program. It's a question whether you have allowed your mind to develop in a disciplined way or not. If you are going to be negligent about some very basic things like quick-sort, by relying on an explanation like the standard library has already implemented it, and then start glorifying "practicality" in your answers, well, even if you keep a whole Web site explaining the relativity theory, it is obvious that both your software and your physics is going to be mediocre. -- A tendenc
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The company I work for is having a terrible time hiring quality software developers. It seems that they just don't exist. We received in total about 20 CVs from various sources. We interviewed 5 of those, only one got to the second interview stage. We are thinking that perhaps the best thing to do is to spend our budget on a couple of graduates fresh out of university and train them up. The previous company I worked for did that, but I wasn't involved with that aspect. Does anyone have any advice for hiring graduates?
Upcoming FREE developer events: * Glasgow: Agile in the Enterprise Vs. ISVs, Mock Objects, SQL Server CLR Integration, Reporting Services, db4o, Dependency Injection with Spring ... * Reading: SQL Bits My website
I have to say that this hiring graduates thing is a catch 22 situation. I understand companies want experience for a post to get the best of the best, but at the same time I don't like this narrow way of thinking. These guys are fresh, if no one gives them a chance, how can they become experienced? It frustrates me. They have 4/5/6 year long degree, surely that's enough to get them in the door? Happened to me, took me 3 months before i even got an interview. Most graduates are keen, interview them, give them a semi-difficult time by asking them questions. But don't play with them with this "explain on whiteboard" stuff. ;)
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The company I work for is having a terrible time hiring quality software developers. It seems that they just don't exist. We received in total about 20 CVs from various sources. We interviewed 5 of those, only one got to the second interview stage. We are thinking that perhaps the best thing to do is to spend our budget on a couple of graduates fresh out of university and train them up. The previous company I worked for did that, but I wasn't involved with that aspect. Does anyone have any advice for hiring graduates?
Upcoming FREE developer events: * Glasgow: Agile in the Enterprise Vs. ISVs, Mock Objects, SQL Server CLR Integration, Reporting Services, db4o, Dependency Injection with Spring ... * Reading: SQL Bits My website
One of the best things I ever did was to bring in a Post Grad to do research work. The Uni paid half their salary, the guy got to publish about the work he did with us, and we got a head start on some research that we were planning on doing. (Oh - and I got to go to a rather nice dinner at the University). Seriously - give it a look at.
Deja View - the feeling that you've seen this post before.
