Silverlight 1.0 released, Linux support announced
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Paul Watson wrote:
Read the other guys response to my message. He said *exactly* that. Replacing HTML/CSS/JS with Silverlight.
Just because someone says that doesn't mean that's reality. Silverlight actually uses HTML and Javascript together; so I think Martin is a bit misled. You and I both know that Silverlight will not replace every web site out there. It's more likely used in place of Flash, Windows Media Player, Quicktime, etc. That said, I think Martin was expressing his frustration with the nightmare that is web development. On that note, I agree with him.
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Judah Himango wrote:
t's more likely used in place of Flash, Windows Media Player, Quicktime, etc.
Sure, I agree. I just wonder why you would. Sadly I see people replicating iTunes in browsers using Silverlight. Loads of "Windows" developers who previously wouldn't, because the only option was Flash, are now going to try. So many splash pages done in Silverlight coming. I thought those days were gone.
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Shog9 wrote:
And with that, Paul closed his browser, sipped his herbal tea, fixed the flower in his hair, and smiled brightly at the multitude of cute, furry animals flocking around the grassy hillside where he sat coding Ruby on his Mac...
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martin_hughes wrote:
For me (and I suspect a good few people of this very parish) getting away from the nightmarish HTML/CSS/JavaScript triumvirate is the real blessing - being able design good looking functionality quickly, with cross browser compatibility and with a high degree of maintainability, without having to summon the evil demons of CSS-P.
And break the web while delivering it into Microsoft control. Please don't. (BTW this comment is equally true for Adobe and Flash. I'm not anti-Microsoft. I'm anti bad usages of technology.) -- modified at 12:55 Wednesday 5th September, 2007
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Shog9 wrote:
And with that, Paul closed his browser, sipped his herbal tea, fixed the flower in his hair, and smiled brightly at the multitude of cute, furry animals flocking around the grassy hillside where he sat coding Ruby on his Mac...
Scary conspiracy theories aside, that's not going to happen, Paul. All the web won't be rewritten with Silverlight, not even in MS's wettest dream. :)
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Roman Catholic Relevance? The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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martin_hughes wrote:
For me (and I suspect a good few people of this very parish) getting away from the nightmarish HTML/CSS/JavaScript triumvirate is the real blessing - being able design good looking functionality quickly, with cross browser compatibility and with a high degree of maintainability, without having to summon the evil demons of CSS-P.
And break the web while delivering it into Microsoft control. Please don't. (BTW this comment is equally true for Adobe and Flash. I'm not anti-Microsoft. I'm anti bad usages of technology.) -- modified at 12:55 Wednesday 5th September, 2007
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Shog9 wrote:
And with that, Paul closed his browser, sipped his herbal tea, fixed the flower in his hair, and smiled brightly at the multitude of cute, furry animals flocking around the grassy hillside where he sat coding Ruby on his Mac...
Paul Watson wrote:
And break the web while delivering it into Microsoft control. Please don't.
Right now its in the hand of Macromedia (through Flash). Real Websites (of the kind I am using) will not use Silverlight in the future, and the ill-advised, that try to convert the web into some sort of interactive TV, well the are at least using something with free standard and implementation....
Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not money, I am become as a sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
George Orwell, "Keep the Aspidistra Flying", Opening words -
I think what you're seeing is less a failure of Mono and more of an indication of the rapid rate MS is putting out new technology; MS-centric developers can hardly keep up on all the new stuff, let alone a much smaller company that is trying to provide compatible stacks for most MS technologies on Linux. By the way, is there something in particular you'd like to see implemented in Mono? 100% compatibility is a lofty goal that won't be achieved (e.g. do we really need System.EnterpriseServices on Mono? How about the LDAP stuff?). But I'd say Mono has enough built in so that most apps work, including big WinForms apps like Paint.NET
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Roman Catholic Relevance? The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
Absolutely 100% incorrect. I've been checking my assemblies using their MOMA tool for years now and they, to this day, have still not implemented setting a cursor on a form and decimal.round midpoint rounding to choose two things at random. These are both fundamentally important, very basic and required for modern applications, absolutely required for business applications to round money values properly. They put in an initial heavy surge to get close to .net 2.0 compatibility then all I started hearing from them was about Moonlight and other projects and not a word about getting the fundamental's done. They have, to this day, still not implemented a way to set a cursor in a winform project. I would be totally understanding if they didn't have .net 3 in their sights yet, but failing at this point to finish .net 1.0 stuff in favour of "sexier" projects gives me no confidence in the project or it's direction whatsoever. At one point they were saying they were going to be working on a compatibility layer of some kind to deal with the most common p/invokes so that the huge volume of 3rd party librarires for reporting and ui etc could run on MONO. That was a brilliant idea and would have cemented the deal for a hell of a lot of developers. No word about it now, completely off the radar. The original intent of having thousands of microsoft.net applications being run on Linux and others is now dead in the water.
"I don't want more choice. I just want better things!" - Edina Monsoon
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Judah Himango wrote:
Microsoft will be collaborating with Novel to implement Silverlight on Linux, more info at Miguel de Icaza's blog[^].
Which implies that Microsoft will have to be "collaborating" on the open source version of .NET (aka MONO), doesn't it? Marc
Yes, Mono's version of Silverlight (Moonlight) uses Mono's CLR right now. Miguel's blog goes into details about this.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Roman Catholic Relevance? The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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Judah Himango wrote:
Microsoft will be collaborating with Novel to implement Silverlight on Linux, more info at Miguel de Icaza's blog[^].
Which implies that Microsoft will have to be "collaborating" on the open source version of .NET (aka MONO), doesn't it? Marc
Thats what the did with Silverlight: The reference-Implementation os OpenSource. And in my opinion, Silverlight already did its Job: Macromedia promised to release Flash in the Open Source.
Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not money, I am become as a sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
George Orwell, "Keep the Aspidistra Flying", Opening words -
Judah Himango wrote:
I mean, you'd need to use 3rd party components to do audio and video playback, right? Not to mention the 3d-like animation, shadows, and so on would be extremely painful in vanilla JS.
You'd use Quicktime, Flash or Silverlight to handle the media files. Coverflow has been replicated many times in various JS libraries. There is a jQuery plugin we used that took all of 2 minutes to apply to one of our apps.
Judah Himango wrote:
I hope no one really says that; Silverlight is a better Flash, not a better HTML + CSS + JS.
Read the other guys response to my message. He said *exactly* that. Replacing HTML/CSS/JS with Silverlight. Scary.
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Shog9 wrote:
And with that, Paul closed his browser, sipped his herbal tea, fixed the flower in his hair, and smiled brightly at the multitude of cute, furry animals flocking around the grassy hillside where he sat coding Ruby on his Mac...
Paul Watson wrote:
You'd use Quicktime, Flash or Silverlight to handle the media files. Coverflow has been replicated many times in various JS libraries. There is a jQuery plugin we used that took all of 2 minutes to apply to one of our apps.
In other words, you'd use a 3rd party library to handle media, then use somebody else's work to replicate the animation you need. You can't always use somebody else's code, sometimes you have to write your own. :) And writing your own in this case would be extremely painful and time consuming using vanilla JS.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Roman Catholic Relevance? The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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Paul Watson wrote:
You'd use Quicktime, Flash or Silverlight to handle the media files. Coverflow has been replicated many times in various JS libraries. There is a jQuery plugin we used that took all of 2 minutes to apply to one of our apps.
In other words, you'd use a 3rd party library to handle media, then use somebody else's work to replicate the animation you need. You can't always use somebody else's code, sometimes you have to write your own. :) And writing your own in this case would be extremely painful and time consuming using vanilla JS.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Roman Catholic Relevance? The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
Judah Himango wrote:
And writing your own in this case would be extremely painful and time consuming using vanilla JS.
What do you mean by vanilla JS? We roll our own JS components and plugins frequently. In the coverflow case we've looked at the code and it is a modification of routine carousel style components. Bottom line is that it is pure JS and CSS, no binary installers to install. You just include the script and it works. You don't have to get your user to install a plugin. I'm not saying JS is easy. It isn't, though the primary reason for that is the newness of this level of JS. In a few years most JS programmers will be up to speed with it. For now they can use the plugins and it works fine.
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Shog9 wrote:
And with that, Paul closed his browser, sipped his herbal tea, fixed the flower in his hair, and smiled brightly at the multitude of cute, furry animals flocking around the grassy hillside where he sat coding Ruby on his Mac...
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Paul Watson wrote:
You'd use Quicktime, Flash or Silverlight to handle the media files. Coverflow has been replicated many times in various JS libraries. There is a jQuery plugin we used that took all of 2 minutes to apply to one of our apps.
In other words, you'd use a 3rd party library to handle media, then use somebody else's work to replicate the animation you need. You can't always use somebody else's code, sometimes you have to write your own. :) And writing your own in this case would be extremely painful and time consuming using vanilla JS.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Roman Catholic Relevance? The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
Judah Himango wrote:
You can't always use somebody else's code, sometimes you have to write your own.
You... do realize, you're discussing a glorified vector graphics plugin, right? It's still someone else's code... ;)
every night, i kneel at the foot of my bed and thank the Great Overseeing Politicians for protecting my freedoms by reducing their number, as if they were deer in a state park. -- Chris Losinger, Online Poker Players?
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Absolutely 100% incorrect. I've been checking my assemblies using their MOMA tool for years now and they, to this day, have still not implemented setting a cursor on a form and decimal.round midpoint rounding to choose two things at random. These are both fundamentally important, very basic and required for modern applications, absolutely required for business applications to round money values properly. They put in an initial heavy surge to get close to .net 2.0 compatibility then all I started hearing from them was about Moonlight and other projects and not a word about getting the fundamental's done. They have, to this day, still not implemented a way to set a cursor in a winform project. I would be totally understanding if they didn't have .net 3 in their sights yet, but failing at this point to finish .net 1.0 stuff in favour of "sexier" projects gives me no confidence in the project or it's direction whatsoever. At one point they were saying they were going to be working on a compatibility layer of some kind to deal with the most common p/invokes so that the huge volume of 3rd party librarires for reporting and ui etc could run on MONO. That was a brilliant idea and would have cemented the deal for a hell of a lot of developers. No word about it now, completely off the radar. The original intent of having thousands of microsoft.net applications being run on Linux and others is now dead in the water.
"I don't want more choice. I just want better things!" - Edina Monsoon
John Cardinal wrote:
I've been checking my assemblies using their MOMA tool for years now
Hey now, Moma was released earlier this year (late last?), so that must be a little exaggeration? :) My point is that MS is putting out new technologies really fast. You're right that Mono focuses their efforts on the latest and greatest, however. Who can blame them? The new stuff is sexy and gets all the attention, and everyone loves to play with the new stuff. I feel your pain though. Maybe we can do some Mono hacking ourselves? Or at least talk to some people that could fill the gaping holes.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Roman Catholic Relevance? The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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Scary conspiracy theories aside, that's not going to happen, Paul. All the web won't be rewritten with Silverlight, not even in MS's wettest dream. :)
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Roman Catholic Relevance? The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
I just don't want these well meaning but ignorant chaps to go down the wrong road. They have plenty to contribute to the web, it just isn't through Silverlight.
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Shog9 wrote:
And with that, Paul closed his browser, sipped his herbal tea, fixed the flower in his hair, and smiled brightly at the multitude of cute, furry animals flocking around the grassy hillside where he sat coding Ruby on his Mac...
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Judah Himango wrote:
You can't always use somebody else's code, sometimes you have to write your own.
You... do realize, you're discussing a glorified vector graphics plugin, right? It's still someone else's code... ;)
every night, i kneel at the foot of my bed and thank the Great Overseeing Politicians for protecting my freedoms by reducing their number, as if they were deer in a state park. -- Chris Losinger, Online Poker Players?
CPHog working in Silverlight yet? :P
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Shog9 wrote:
And with that, Paul closed his browser, sipped his herbal tea, fixed the flower in his hair, and smiled brightly at the multitude of cute, furry animals flocking around the grassy hillside where he sat coding Ruby on his Mac...
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Thats what the did with Silverlight: The reference-Implementation os OpenSource. And in my opinion, Silverlight already did its Job: Macromedia promised to release Flash in the Open Source.
Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not money, I am become as a sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
George Orwell, "Keep the Aspidistra Flying", Opening wordsjhwurmbach wrote:
And in my opinion, Silverlight already did its Job: Macromedia promised to release Flash in the Open Source.
Which bit? The player? The format?
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Shog9 wrote:
And with that, Paul closed his browser, sipped his herbal tea, fixed the flower in his hair, and smiled brightly at the multitude of cute, furry animals flocking around the grassy hillside where he sat coding Ruby on his Mac...
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CPHog working in Silverlight yet? :P
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Shog9 wrote:
And with that, Paul closed his browser, sipped his herbal tea, fixed the flower in his hair, and smiled brightly at the multitude of cute, furry animals flocking around the grassy hillside where he sat coding Ruby on his Mac...
Great Scott! I hadn't even considered it, but now that i have, superfluous animation is exactly what's been lacking! :D ...And it'll be just perfect once i get the CodeProject theme song playing on each page load... :rolleyes:
every night, i kneel at the foot of my bed and thank the Great Overseeing Politicians for protecting my freedoms by reducing their number, as if they were deer in a state park. -- Chris Losinger, Online Poker Players?
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martin_hughes wrote:
For me (and I suspect a good few people of this very parish) getting away from the nightmarish HTML/CSS/JavaScript triumvirate is the real blessing - being able design good looking functionality quickly, with cross browser compatibility and with a high degree of maintainability, without having to summon the evil demons of CSS-P.
And break the web while delivering it into Microsoft control. Please don't. (BTW this comment is equally true for Adobe and Flash. I'm not anti-Microsoft. I'm anti bad usages of technology.) -- modified at 12:55 Wednesday 5th September, 2007
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Shog9 wrote:
And with that, Paul closed his browser, sipped his herbal tea, fixed the flower in his hair, and smiled brightly at the multitude of cute, furry animals flocking around the grassy hillside where he sat coding Ruby on his Mac...
Paul Watson wrote:
And break the web while delivering it into Microsoft control. Please don't.
Why not? The web is broken anyway.
Me: Can you see the "up" arrow? User:Errr...ummm....no. Me: Can you see an arrow that points upwards? User: Oh yes, I see it now! -Excerpt from a support call taken by me, 08/31/2007
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Absolutely 100% incorrect. I've been checking my assemblies using their MOMA tool for years now and they, to this day, have still not implemented setting a cursor on a form and decimal.round midpoint rounding to choose two things at random. These are both fundamentally important, very basic and required for modern applications, absolutely required for business applications to round money values properly. They put in an initial heavy surge to get close to .net 2.0 compatibility then all I started hearing from them was about Moonlight and other projects and not a word about getting the fundamental's done. They have, to this day, still not implemented a way to set a cursor in a winform project. I would be totally understanding if they didn't have .net 3 in their sights yet, but failing at this point to finish .net 1.0 stuff in favour of "sexier" projects gives me no confidence in the project or it's direction whatsoever. At one point they were saying they were going to be working on a compatibility layer of some kind to deal with the most common p/invokes so that the huge volume of 3rd party librarires for reporting and ui etc could run on MONO. That was a brilliant idea and would have cemented the deal for a hell of a lot of developers. No word about it now, completely off the radar. The original intent of having thousands of microsoft.net applications being run on Linux and others is now dead in the water.
"I don't want more choice. I just want better things!" - Edina Monsoon
Well then, i suppose you know what it feels like to have a browser ignore your favorite CSS style, or image format, or what have you now... :rolleyes:
every night, i kneel at the foot of my bed and thank the Great Overseeing Politicians for protecting my freedoms by reducing their number, as if they were deer in a state park. -- Chris Losinger, Online Poker Players?
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Great Scott! I hadn't even considered it, but now that i have, superfluous animation is exactly what's been lacking! :D ...And it'll be just perfect once i get the CodeProject theme song playing on each page load... :rolleyes:
every night, i kneel at the foot of my bed and thank the Great Overseeing Politicians for protecting my freedoms by reducing their number, as if they were deer in a state park. -- Chris Losinger, Online Poker Players?
My work here is done. How I love the sound of Microsoft stock tinkling into my account.
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Shog9 wrote:
And with that, Paul closed his browser, sipped his herbal tea, fixed the flower in his hair, and smiled brightly at the multitude of cute, furry animals flocking around the grassy hillside where he sat coding Ruby on his Mac...
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Paul Watson wrote:
And break the web while delivering it into Microsoft control. Please don't.
Why not? The web is broken anyway.
Me: Can you see the "up" arrow? User:Errr...ummm....no. Me: Can you see an arrow that points upwards? User: Oh yes, I see it now! -Excerpt from a support call taken by me, 08/31/2007
I'm listening.
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Shog9 wrote:
And with that, Paul closed his browser, sipped his herbal tea, fixed the flower in his hair, and smiled brightly at the multitude of cute, furry animals flocking around the grassy hillside where he sat coding Ruby on his Mac...
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Judah Himango wrote:
You can't always use somebody else's code, sometimes you have to write your own.
You... do realize, you're discussing a glorified vector graphics plugin, right? It's still someone else's code... ;)
every night, i kneel at the foot of my bed and thank the Great Overseeing Politicians for protecting my freedoms by reducing their number, as if they were deer in a state park. -- Chris Losinger, Online Poker Players?
Yes, and it's easier to do some things with this glorified VG plugin than it is with vanilla JS. [cue collective, "aahhhhhhh" sound]
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Roman Catholic Relevance? The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango
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Judah Himango wrote:
And writing your own in this case would be extremely painful and time consuming using vanilla JS.
What do you mean by vanilla JS? We roll our own JS components and plugins frequently. In the coverflow case we've looked at the code and it is a modification of routine carousel style components. Bottom line is that it is pure JS and CSS, no binary installers to install. You just include the script and it works. You don't have to get your user to install a plugin. I'm not saying JS is easy. It isn't, though the primary reason for that is the newness of this level of JS. In a few years most JS programmers will be up to speed with it. For now they can use the plugins and it works fine.
regards, Paul Watson Ireland & South Africa
Shog9 wrote:
And with that, Paul closed his browser, sipped his herbal tea, fixed the flower in his hair, and smiled brightly at the multitude of cute, furry animals flocking around the grassy hillside where he sat coding Ruby on his Mac...
Paul Watson wrote:
I'm not saying JS is easy.
Good, we agree. My point was that it's easier to do some things with Silverlight than with plain old JS, and also Silverlight gives you things JS can't do. That's all, we don't have to get religious about it.
Tech, life, family, faith: Give me a visit. I'm currently blogging about: Roman Catholic Relevance? The apostle Paul, modernly speaking: Epistles of Paul Judah Himango